Alpha Dog Training?

[Weasels]

I was going to suggest agility too :) Oodles of fun if you can find a club :)

[Tazar]

I have trained my dogs at Alpha, I LOVE my dogs to death and would never do anything to hurt them or make them miserable.

Greg, the owner/creator, is not full of himself, the man is driven by his passion for dogs, you just have to listen to him talk. He has worked with so many dogs, testing HIS theories, in a effort to find an effective way to train most dogs. Some of these methods require a bit of tweaking for special cases but the basics remain the same, dogs (like children), need boundaries and rules to work within. (Just look at the consequences of 'free parenting', bit like the consequences of positive only or no dog training IMHO = works ok for some but the others.....)

My boys won't go through an open gate or through the back doors when they are open, I set the boundaries and now don't need to say or do anything. They know they need to be invited and don't sit there begging either. I can put them in a drop and go back 4 hours later and they are still there, other dogs, cats, sheep, chickens wandering around, they don't move. I use treats for trick training but for the basics I don't. I don't need head collars any more, they are a training aid. I control my dogs with my voice, just a few words in fact. They come in every night and curl up on their beds and sometimes I invite them on to the couch or my bed or even my kids beds. They love being with me (and my family) and we have a great bond.

So many dogs have been trained and/or helped by Alpha, whilst it might not be to everyones taste (tell me something that is?), I think what they do is awesome.

[m-sass]

I have trained my dogs at Alpha, I LOVE my dogs to death and would never do anything to hurt them or make them miserable.

Greg, the owner/creator, is not full of himself, the man is driven by his passion for dogs, you just have to listen to him talk. He has worked with so many dogs, testing HIS theories, in a effort to find an effective way to train most dogs. Some of these methods require a bit of tweaking for special cases but the basics remain the same, dogs (like children), need boundaries and rules to work within. (Just look at the consequences of 'free parenting', bit like the consequences of positive only or no dog training IMHO = works ok for some but the others.....)

My boys won't go through an open gate or through the back doors when they are open, I set the boundaries and now don't need to say or do anything. They know they need to be invited and don't sit there begging either. I can put them in a drop and go back 4 hours later and they are still there, other dogs, cats, sheep, chickens wandering around, they don't move. I use treats for trick training but for the basics I don't. I don't need head collars any more, they are a training aid. I control my dogs with my voice, just a few words in fact. They come in every night and curl up on their beds and sometimes I invite them on to the couch or my bed or even my kids beds. They love being with me (and my family) and we have a great bond.

So many dogs have been trained and/or helped by Alpha, whilst it might not be to everyones taste (tell me something that is?), I think what they do is awesome.

Anyone who reserves themselves primarily training with a head collar only I personally can't take seriously as a balanced trainer. A great trainer IHMO is someone conversant with "all" training equipment from a head collar to an Ecollar and everything in between, that's who I consider are "dog trainers" in the true sense of the word, the rest only accomodate the training of dogs suitable for their tools and methodology and taking dogs unsuitable for these people's systems only results in heartache all round and wasting money on poor advice.

[perfect partners]

I have trained my dogs at Alpha, I LOVE my dogs to death and would never do anything to hurt them or make them miserable.

Greg, the owner/creator, is not full of himself, the man is driven by his passion for dogs, you just have to listen to him talk. He has worked with so many dogs, testing HIS theories, in a effort to find an effective way to train most dogs. Some of these methods require a bit of tweaking for special cases but the basics remain the same, dogs (like children), need boundaries and rules to work within. (Just look at the consequences of 'free parenting', bit like the consequences of positive only or no dog training IMHO = works ok for some but the others.....)

My boys won't go through an open gate or through the back doors when they are open, I set the boundaries and now don't need to say or do anything. They know they need to be invited and don't sit there begging either. I can put them in a drop and go back 4 hours later and they are still there, other dogs, cats, sheep, chickens wandering around, they don't move. I use treats for trick training but for the basics I don't. I don't need head collars any more, they are a training aid. I control my dogs with my voice, just a few words in fact. They come in every night and curl up on their beds and sometimes I invite them on to the couch or my bed or even my kids beds. They love being with me (and my family) and we have a great bond.

So many dogs have been trained and/or helped by Alpha, whilst it might not be to everyones taste (tell me something that is?), I think what they do is awesome.

Anyone who reserves themselves primarily training with a head collar only I personally can't take seriously as a balanced trainer. A great trainer IHMO is someone conversant with "all" training equipment from a head collar to an Ecollar and everything in between, that's who I consider are "dog trainers" in the true sense of the word, the rest only accomodate the training of dogs suitable for their tools and methodology and taking dogs unsuitable for these people's systems only results in heartache all round and wasting money on poor advice.

I agree.

[Weasels]

Anyone who reserves themselves primarily training with a head collar only I personally can't take seriously as a balanced trainer. A great trainer IHMO is someone conversant with "all" training equipment from a head collar to an Ecollar and everything in between, that's who I consider are "dog trainers" in the true sense of the word, the rest only accomodate the training of dogs suitable for their tools and methodology and taking dogs unsuitable for these people's systems only results in heartache all round and wasting money on poor advice.

Whilst I agree that training only with a halti is extreme, I don't see a problem with people specialising in a training technique as long as they are upfront about it and, like you said, only take on appropriate clients. I wouldn't expect most obedience trainers to be able to train a good running contact and I wouldn't expect most agility trainers to train a dog to drive sheep through a Y-chute. It's just a matter of specialisation like any other profession IMHO.

If we required all trainers to be expert in every method and tool we'd have a flood of highly qualified people teaching new dog owners how to stop their dog from jumping up and chewing socks. There are lots of niches in training :)

edited for grammar

Edited June 8, 2012 by Weasels

[Whirligig]

Well, I'm new here. I joined because I came across this thread which appeared to be initially bagging the Alpha Dog Training method. I've had dogs for most of my adult life. Most of them I've trained quite successfully on my own, and they've turned out to be delightful, polite dogs. I've tried reward-based training, but it doesn't always work. It turned my dogs into "beggers". Then one day when I had a new pup I decided to try the Croydon group, but I didn't like the slip chain method they used. Perhaps it was simply me not getting the grasp of it - I'm prepared to take the blame for that. But my very lively dog just wouldn't stop pulling and I was afraid of eventually doing damage to her neck. Fortunately, when she was about two and a half years' old she settled down and suddenly stopped pulling. But the other dog I "acquired" soon after gradually became dog aggressive. I approached the Croydon group again and was told to bring the aggressive dog along during training sessions and walk her around the other dogs, or tie her to a post near the other dogs until she gave up being aggressive towards them, or until she realised that they were no threat to her. The problem was that she was a very strong dog. I lost courage because I was afraid of being pulled off my feet, and discouraged by all the other members with their well-behaved, placid dogs looking at me as though I had some terrible disease. The trainers were too busy with their groups, so I didn't get any assistance. I gave up and spent the rest of that dog's life walking her where there weren't other dogs, or crossing the road or the park if I saw another dog approaching, or walking where I knew I could have enough distance between my dog and other dogs. It was a nightmare. I had two different professional trainers/dog psycologists at my home to assist with the problem. They said she was simply afraid of other dogs and showed me how to handle the problem. Each of them cost me about $300 per session. I tried for the rest of that dog's life to employ their techniques, to no avail. I'm a fairly intelligent, responsive person, but having no success with that dog made me feel completely incompetent.

When she passed away about two years' ago, my other dog grieved terribly. I decided she needed another companion dog, so I contacted various breeders, determined to find a well-bred, well-socialised dog that I would spend a lot of time and effort training from a young age. It took a while, but eventually I was offered a very beautiful young male, 18 months old who had lived with a cat (very important as I have a cat), and doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. He's an absolute delight, BUT was completely untrained. Walking him was a complete disaster as he'd dart in every which direction and would fling himself off in any direction he saw a bird. At times he literally become airborne while on lead. He jumped on everyone and pushed his weight around like I've never experienced a dog do before. He's a medium to large dog, and I ended up having my back wrenched out trying to walk him. Once again I got the professional dog trainer out. This one even trained police dogs and tracking dogs. I was taught all the dog psycology tricks again, like ignore him when he's being pushy, turn your back on him, etc, etc. She tried to walk him and immediately decided he'd never, ever learn to walk with a flat collar or a slip chain, and sold me a halti. The halti worked for a day, then he was back to the pulling and flying into the air again, halti and all! I never got a chance to praise him on walks, because there wasn't a second in between his pulling and darting to slip any praise into. And the ignoring bad behaviour thing didn't stop him jumping on visitors and bowling me over in the passage, or jumping on me from behind. I was desparate! Now thinking that I was completely useless at training dogs (any reassurances from previous successes flown out the window), I started looking for a dog training school that would take my new dog in and train him for me, then get me to learn how to handle him as well. I found the Alpha Dog Training website and rang them, had a long chat with Greg, and am now very happily training with them. My dog is fantastic! He's responding really well to that method of training and I'm gaining confidence again too. We are a real team, my dog and I. He loves his training sessions, and the whole time he's eyes are on me and his tail is wagging. He is so well behaved now, and people who saw him in those first weeks I had him home, are amazed by the transition. He's retained his cheeky personality, and while he's not at all aggressive and never will be, he still has and always will have a dominating, testing nature. But I am the leader of the pack, and I can control his bad behaviour even when he's interacting with others, which I couldn't do before. The Alpha Training method has not suppressed his delightful personality at all, it's merely made him manageable, with boundaries which he accepts. I honestly believe he's more secure, and happier having a leader in his life, rather than having the stress of trying to be leader himself. And he sleeps in my bedroom, and he has cuddles on the couch with me, but all on my terms. I've never been told he mustn't sleep in the bedroom or cuddle on the couch with me, I've only been taught how to let him do so on my terms. He is like a big, cuddly bear, and I love him to death, along with my now very old girl who I'll also treasure for as long as she's with me, and beyond. I've not seen anything cruel or harmful in any of the training I've done with Alpha, certainly nothing as harsh as the slip chain I didn't like at Croydon. Sure, I have seen one trainer being a bit over-zealous with the halti when walking the dog in a circle, and I didn't like that either, but we don't have to follow her example or her degree of "toughness". I've never had to be that harsh, nor will I ever be, and I haven't seen any of the other trainers do that either. My dog and I are only at Level 2 with our training, and already taking him out for walks is such a pleasure, at last! I know I could never have achieved this result so quickly without Alpha. The emphasis in Alpha is lots and lots and lots of praise, so that the dog understands when it's doing the right thing. And positive feedback reinforces positive behaviour patterns. I just know that no other method I've ever used or tried would have worked on this dog, at least not without risk of sustaining a more serious injury to my back or shoulder in the meanwhile.

Sure, other training methods work.....with some dogs, probably with most dogs. But sometimes it takes a different approach to make things happen. And I'm more than happy to learn from those who have studied dog behaviour and training methods, with real case studies. It's too bad that some of you have had such a bad experience with Alpha, but you will always find one or two undesirable advocates within any training group. I found that even at Croydon. It's just the way humans are.....some will go to extremes to demonstrate their abilities/capabilities, others can achieve the same result with the same technique using less force. I only wish I had known about Alpha all those years that I struggled with my dog-aggressive dog! I know their training methods would have helped her.

[Nekhbet]

Sure, I have seen one trainer being a bit over-zealous with the halti when walking the dog in a circle, and I didn't like that either, but we don't have to follow her example or her degree of "toughness". I've never had to be that harsh, nor will I ever be,

Why is anyone being 'harsh' with a Halti - they are not designed for that type of behavior so what the hell was the trainer doing to the dog and showing other people how to do as well?

I've tried reward-based training, but it doesn't always work. It turned my dogs into "beggers".

The emphasis in Alpha is lots and lots and lots of praise, so that the dog understands when it's doing the right thing. And positive feedback reinforces positive behaviour patterns.

So you don't like reward based training but you do at Alpha? It's working on the same principles you just obviously removed the food and forced the dog into liking you instead.

I'm curious now

[Remarkabull]

I still stand by my thought that by putting a halti on my 35kg working line Dobermann and walking him in circles is not going to do a thing to help with his issues with other dogs. Without the 'trainer' even seeing my dog I was told that she could 'fix' him with these methods. She also kept banging on about 'once you get him under control on the lead' despite me telling her repeatedly that he walks beautifully on lead and is very focused on me.

Anyway, I did not and will not be using her services, but I'm glad it works for some.

[Weasels]

Remarkabull did you find another trainer? How's Acheron going? :)

Edited February 21, 2013 by TheLBD

[Whirligig]

Hi Nekhbet

Thanks for your response to my posting. By the way, I'm not on here to argue, or create waves, or put anyone else's ideas down, just to say that in the situation I had, Alpha training has worked. It's been a Godsend. I am in total agreement with you that the halti is not designed for "harsh" training methods. However, the particular trainer I'm referring to was quite brutal in the manner she pulled the dog's head up with the halti. It's not necessary to be that rough or to use that much strength, and none of the other trainers have ever shown that much force in their demonstrations.. It was almost a show of arm muscle strength with that particular trainer, and it wasn't a huge, strong dog resisting her, that she was demonstrating on. If that had been done on my dog, he would most likely have ended up with a badly bitten tongue because it's often flopping out of his mouth. The sudden, and brutal manner in which she jerked the dog's head up would have snapped my dog's mouth shut so quickly, he would have bitten his tongue.

My apologies, I should have been more specific with what I meant by reward-based training (sorry it was past midnight when I made that posting). What I mean is I'm personally not in favour of food-based reward training. I did use it with two of my dogs, and they were constantly looking for treats. But I am very much in favour of praise- and cuddle-based reward training. With praise-based training, my dogs learn to do the right thing because they understand it's the right thing, not because they'll get food. Quite clearly, food-based training goes hand-in-hand with praise. It's a combination of both, so, using your theory, is that not also "forcing" the dog to like you?

I don't believe it's "forcing" the dog to like you - I find that suggestion to be quite ludicrous. It's about the dog understanding what is acceptable behaviour in our human world, or more specifically in my case, about acceptable behaviour in my home and my environment. If the dog doesn't like you, nothing you do to it is going to make it like you, but it can respect you as the pack leader. If my dog isn't happy, why does he wag his tail so joyfully when we are working together and when he's around me. And if you prefer to see it in terms of "forcing" the dog to like you, what exactly is wrong with teaching the dog to like you? I fail to see any fault in that, as long as the dog also respects you. Apart from that, my dog liked me well before we commenced training. He liked me when he was completely untrained. I know that because he chose to be with me every minute I was home (and I'm not a single person living on my own, I'm a family person). He followed me everywhere around the house and garden, with his tail wagging and happiness written all over his face.. I never "forced" him to like me. In fact I'd say it was the other way around, and I love him all the more because we've formed a mutually respectful bond. A dog wants to please, and when it knows it's doing that, it is happy. I like to please my dog too - that's why I take him for walks, and that's why I throw the ball for him for hours in the back yard, and that's why I take him to training. Why do you consider praise to be "forcing" the dog to like you? And apart from having a dog that is well trained, isn't the desired outcome of any family-dog training also to encourage the dog to like humans?. Obviously any owner who forms a bond with their dog is going to have a dog that likes them and respect them, and vice versa.....isn't that why most of us have dogs? Humans learn best when they are surrounded by lots and lots of praise and acknowledgement of good behaviour, and they are made aware of unacceptable behaviour. We all know right from wrong because we are taught that. It's no different with our dogs, because they are mostly social creatures who need to interact with their "pack", be that a human family, or dog pack. And in any pack, or family, there's a structure, or hierarchy, if you like. For a pack/family to function properly, that structure and the rules need to be understood. In order to achieve that, each of us has to attempt the best training methods with the most positive feedback. When I praised my children, they were happy, and they loved me. My objective however, was not to "force" them to love me, it was to be a good, responsible parent whether they loved me or not. I view my relationship with my dogs in exactly the same light. It just so happens that in the process of being responsible and training my children and my dogs, they also love/like and respect me. I've never used physical pain, fear, or money rewards, or food rewards to train my children, and I see no need to use physical pain or food rewards to train this dog.

All non-pain based training methods have their pros and their cons - each to his or her own. You're welcome to rip what I've said apart, but I make no apologies for employing the Alpha training method, and make no apologies for my admiration of Greg and his passion in the field of dog behaviour and training, and his years of experience and studying dog behaviour and response. And yes, I've also had success with other methods - with dogs that had more placid and submissive temperaments, but with more aggressive or stronger personalities I failed. The dog I'm training, adorable as he is, is a very forceful boy, a very strong and dominant personality, and for the first time in my life I've found a method that works for me with this type of dog.

Thanks for reading, and happy dog training, whatever method you choose to adopt.

[huski]

I like to please my dog too - that's why I take him for walks, and that's why I throw the ball for him for hours in the back yard, and that's why I take him to training.

Why is it ok to use a ball reward, but not a food reward? What is the difference between using praise and affection and using food? If your dog is rewarded by praise, doesn't it come to expect and look for that like it would food?

Like any method using food in training needs to be done correctly to get the most out of it.

[megan_]

I have always found it very odd that people will reward their dog for doing nothing (eg giving their dog a bowl of food at dinner, throwing a ball in the yard, even going for a walk) but they balk at giving a dog those things for working hard. It makes no sense to me sorry. All the dog learns is that doing nothing leads to the best rewards. I don't want my dogs to learn that lesson. Working hard = best rewards; do nothing = get nothing. That is the true essence of rewards based training - pretty tough!

My dogs get rewards for working. But they get none of those for nothing. They don't eat out of a bowl, they get their meals for training.

As huski says, you can get begging if you don't do things properly. Even begging is a good training opportunity (look up Susan Garrett's "Its Yer Choice".).

Rewards are only rewarding if the dog really loves the rewards. Look at the top trainers in the world, they all use active rewards to pay their dog for work.

[megan_]

I have seen many methods of training, and I have found Alpha to be the best training method for MY dog. I personally don't believe in treat training - Talk about feeding the dog obesity epidemic!

My dogs work for their food - not treats. They are not obese at all. How does your dog get their food?

[Whirligig]

I like to please my dog too - that's why I take him for walks, and that's why I throw the ball for him for hours in the back yard, and that's why I take him to training.

Why is it ok to use a ball reward, but not a food reward? What is the difference between using praise and affection and using food? If your dog is rewarded by praise, doesn't it come to expect and look for that like it would food?

Like any method using food in training needs to be done correctly to get the most out of it.

Hi Husky, I don't use a ball reward. I throw the ball for him because I know he enjoys it. I play with him, walk him, and interact with him in mutually happy ways - it's part of being a responsible dog owner. He doesn't have to earn every enjoyable activity I have with him. He doesn't only get cuddles and praise and affection during training....it's just ALSO part of what happens during training.Why does everything have to be earned? He doesn't have to earn his walks, he gets them because he needs them and enjoys them. I know he enjoys those things, and he has a right to live a happy and enjoyable lifestyle. He doesn't have to work for every pleasant thing in his life. He has a basic right to be fed, simply because he is a living animal, not because he's earned it by doing something I want him to do. My human family don't have to "earn" the right to a decent meal, to games in the park with me, why should my dog?

OK, so I'm a failure because the food-reward training led my dogs to constantly expect treats. I'll wear that hat. I'm human, I fail in some things. But I've found something I can do successfully, and a method I can grasp and see the value in. So just get off my back and stop trying to turn this into some sort of competition or challenge!

[Whirligig]

I have always found it very odd that people will reward their dog for doing nothing (eg giving their dog a bowl of food at dinner, throwing a ball in the yard, even going for a walk) but they balk at giving a dog those things for working hard. It makes no sense to me sorry. All the dog learns is that doing nothing leads to the best rewards. I don't want my dogs to learn that lesson. Working hard = best rewards; do nothing = get nothing. That is the true essence of rewards based training - pretty tough!

My dogs get rewards for working. But they get none of those for nothing. They don't eat out of a bowl, they get their meals for training.

As huski says, you can get begging if you don't do things properly. Even begging is a good training opportunity (look up Susan Garrett's "Its Yer Choice".).

Rewards are only rewarding if the dog really loves the rewards. Look at the top trainers in the world, they all use active rewards to pay their dog for work.

Hi Megan

As I said to Huski, I don't believe that my dog should have to earn the right to be fed, no more than my human family does. Yes, I was a failure at treat-reward training because my dogs expected treats the whole time. I was a failure at a lot of things. I'm human. But I have at last really found a method that produces rewarding results, and it's a training method I'm having success with, for MY purposes. I'm not telling anyone else how to train their animals - it's not about you, or anyone else, it's about how I feel about MY dog and MY training.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Whirligig

[Kavik]

Hi Husky, I don't use a ball reward. I throw the ball for him because I know he enjoys it. I play with him, walk him, and interact with him in mutually happy ways - it's part of being a responsible dog owner. He doesn't have to earn every enjoyable activity I have with him. He doesn't only get cuddles and praise and affection during training....it's just ALSO part of what happens during training.Why does everything have to be earned? He doesn't have to earn his walks, he gets them because he needs them and enjoys them. I know he enjoys those things, and he has a right to live a happy and enjoyable lifestyle. He doesn't have to work for every pleasant thing in his life. He has a basic right to be fed, simply because he is a living animal, not because he's earned it by doing something I want him to do. My human family don't have to "earn" the right to a decent meal, to games in the park with me, why should my dog?

OK, so I'm a failure because the food-reward training led my dogs to constantly expect treats. I'll wear that hat. I'm human, I fail in some things. But I've found something I can do successfully, and a method I can grasp and see the value in. So just get off my back and stop trying to turn this into some sort of competition or challenge!

I like to use the things my dog enjoys as rewards in training, so I can get better and enthusiastic responses and he learns that good things come through me. I use both food and toy rewards. He doesn't get the things he likes for free. This way I can train without the use of compulsion, by controlling his access to reinforcement, and it is win - win. Self control and drive can both be taught through the use of rewards, and we play when there is a job well done. It is a lot of fun and not a chore. Since you are going to feed your dog anyway, why not use dinner time to do some training?

Even my lowest drive and most difficult to motivate dog will give me some good work before dinner :laugh:

Edited February 21, 2013 by Kavik

[Weasels]

I taught my dogs an "off you go" cue (i.e. "there is no more food/training/play to be had here"), and they wander off to sleep somewhere. No more begging problems :)

[Dame Aussie]

I taught my dogs an "off you go" cue (i.e. "there is no more food/training/play to be had here"), and they wander off to sleep somewhere. No more begging problems :)

Me too, Lili is fetch obsessed and will keep bringing the ball back over and over, we started saying "last one" before we threw the ball, then ignoring her attempts at more play, she is spot on now, as soon as we say last one, she fetches the ball and goes and lies down.

She will also respond to "No more".

Edited February 21, 2013 by Aussie3

[Remarkabull]

Acheron is doing well. He has his issues but nothing that we can't control. He is much happier since we got Simi and has a friend to play with, although it took time for him to accept her. We have to be on lookout when we walk him as heaps of people around here don't have dogs on lead but we haven't had any incidents.

[huski]

I like to please my dog too - that's why I take him for walks, and that's why I throw the ball for him for hours in the back yard, and that's why I take him to training.

Why is it ok to use a ball reward, but not a food reward? What is the difference between using praise and affection and using food? If your dog is rewarded by praise, doesn't it come to expect and look for that like it would food?

Like any method using food in training needs to be done correctly to get the most out of it.

Hi Husky, I don't use a ball reward. I throw the ball for him because I know he enjoys it. I play with him, walk him, and interact with him in mutually happy ways - it's part of being a responsible dog owner. He doesn't have to earn every enjoyable activity I have with him. He doesn't only get cuddles and praise and affection during training....it's just ALSO part of what happens during training.Why does everything have to be earned? He doesn't have to earn his walks, he gets them because he needs them and enjoys them. I know he enjoys those things, and he has a right to live a happy and enjoyable lifestyle. He doesn't have to work for every pleasant thing in his life. He has a basic right to be fed, simply because he is a living animal, not because he's earned it by doing something I want him to do. My human family don't have to "earn" the right to a decent meal, to games in the park with me, why should my dog?

OK, so I'm a failure because the food-reward training led my dogs to constantly expect treats. I'll wear that hat. I'm human, I fail in some things. But I've found something I can do successfully, and a method I can grasp and see the value in. So just get off my back and stop trying to turn this into some sort of competition or challenge!

Ok... not a competition or challenge, was just a question out of interest to understand your perspective.