Alpha Dog Training?

[melzawelza]

I don't get how so many professional trainers can avoid the science that's out there.

Aversives don't work as well as rewards.

As a blanket statement, I don't agree. IMO, it would depend on the situation, event, the dog and what you're trying to achieve.

Generally speaking though, an appropriate mix of aversives and rewards can work even better than either of these things individually. But again - no blanket statement being made by me .... it depends on the situation, event, the dog and what I'm trying to achieve.

Agreed Erny.

Anyway, any good trainer who uses aversives won't use them to teach a new behaviour. That's mental. The aversives are added once the dog understands the task being asked of it and only if the dog is not complying.

I don't get how many 'purely positive' trainers go on and on about the science and forget that positive punishment and negative reinforcement are two quadrants of operant conditioning and their use is supported by the science.

[Erny]

I agree, Melz. And although I haven't got stats to back it up, it strikes me that there are only certain groups/people who make 'one-directional' blanket statements as though fact. I find that very infrequently from those who can see the good AND not so good in ALL quadrants of training.

Just my opinion.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Erny

[Jumabaar]

I don't get how so many professional trainers can avoid the science that's out there.

Aversives don't work as well as rewards.

As a blanket statement, I don't agree. IMO, it would depend on the situation, event, the dog and what you're trying to achieve.

Generally speaking though, an appropriate mix of aversives and rewards can work even better than either of these things individually. But again - no blanket statement being made by me .... it depends on the situation, event, the dog and what I'm trying to achieve.

Senario- Dog behind fence hits fence.

Reward- My dogs begin fence running

Punishment- Everyone gets hosed (the only option when you have a moon boot on lol)

Result- Dogs don't go near fence.

The Aversive in this situation was clearly more powerful than the reward of Fence running.

I do agree that one of my dogs likes the aversive (of being told no) because it means she gets to the reward quicker!! For example a sloppy position and she is told no, the next time she does it correctly she earns a treat- generally she locks onto a behaviour pretty quickly. Another of my dogs shuts down with an Aversive so for her unless I am truly trying to extinguish a behaviour its positive all the way.

I have trained at a no food club and in all honesty I find using treats such an easy way for me as a trainer to communicate to my dog that they nailed it. But I am a naturally lazy person who likes to cheat when I train my dogs so they always win (but don't tell THEM that :laugh:)

Edited June 5, 2012 by Jumabaar

[Staff'n'Toller]

I don't get how so many professional trainers can avoid the science that's out there.

Aversives don't work as well as rewards.

As a blanket statement, I don't agree. IMO, it would depend on the situation, event, the dog and what you're trying to achieve.

Generally speaking though, an appropriate mix of aversives and rewards can work even better than either of these things individually. But again - no blanket statement being made by me .... it depends on the situation, event, the dog and what I'm trying to achieve.

Senario- Dog behind fence hits fence.

Reward- My dogs begin fence running

Punishment- Everyone gets hosed (the only option when you have a moon boot on lol)

Result- Dogs don't go near fence.

The Aversive in this situation was clearly more powerful than the reward of Fence running.

I do agree that one of my dogs likes the aversive (of being told no) because it means she gets to the reward quicker!! For example a sloppy position and she is told no, the next time she does it correctly she earns a treat- generally she locks onto a behaviour pretty quickly. Another of my dogs shuts down with an Aversive so for her unless I am truly trying to extinguish a behaviour its positive all the way.

I have trained at a no food club and in all honesty I find using treats such an easy way for me as a trainer to communicate to my dog that they nailed it. But I am a naturally lazy person who likes to cheat when I train my dogs so they always win (but don't tell THEM that :laugh:)

Training with clarity and setting the dog up for success is not cheating. :) It's just smart.

[Jumabaar]

Training with clarity and setting the dog up for success is not cheating. :) It's just smart.

Cheating just sounds like more fun though

Just an aside- I have also found that it makes sense to people when explaining it. Setting a dog up to succeed sounds like hard work. Cheating so they always win sounds much easier.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Jumabaar

[Weasels]

Weasels - I also make sure lead going on means lots of treats - most of the time. Especially if we're out in an off lead space. Lead goes on and off and on ... all the time.

There is a bad person at our dog club who yanks her dog around on the choke collar and screams at it when it nicks off instead of doing a recall. It's horrible and embarrassing to watch. She's a club instructor.

Our chief instructor knows she's bad and her methods are bad, but does nothing for fear she will lose three or so of her most reliable instructors. If she could lose those - she'd gain about ten instructors who refuse to instruct because of them.

From all accounts our local club is similar. They are actually overtly hostile towards clickers and will chase someone across the oval to tell them off for having one I would join up in a heartbeat if they weren't like that because they train on the only day I'm not working or herding

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I use most of the quadrants...

I like to do the reward stuff - maybe a little too much (fat dog - rewarded for crap)

I do sometimes withhold reward (ooh negative)

And I sometimes apply an aversive. I sometimes set up the environment so stealing re-inforcement by the dog will result in a fairly dramatic (from her point of view) aversive

I rarely use "escape training" ie -P because I'm crap at it. But I guess a long spell in the crate or shut out the back without me - which gets me a more focussed and willing dog (for a while) - is a variety of this.

And there are shades of grey where everything meets and overlaps in the middle.

I just get really pissed at trainers who think reefing on a collar is a good idea. Or never treating is good. Or that screaming at a dog who has no idea what the problem is - will help. And I see these things EVERY DAY.

I prefer the trainers who are willing to use all methods available (apart from violence), but starting with rewards... and aiming to phase out or not use baseball bats (extreme +P). One of the training groups I'm with has arguments about whether a non reward marker is a +P. ie aversive.

Just me stuffing up and kicking myself when training or competing is enough to discombobulate my dog, same as if I'd scolded her. So I do have to be very careful with the aversives.

On "cheating" I tend to think of "luring" as "cheating".

[Derharv GSD'S]

Alpha Dog Training are fantastic !

I had a gsd many years ago who many severe temperament issues and every trainer I enquirerd with told me to have my dog PTS and they couldn't help me.

With the help of Greg and his team of trainers my gsd went from being a nutcase to a fantastic well rounded dog who I could take anywhere and do anything with and I further trained many dog with Alpha as well as working for their boarding kennels for a few years .

We recommend our puppy people to them and are continually receiving great feedback about the training and how excellently their pups are going with the training.

People should definitely attend their free session and see for themselves what alpha do before bagging them on a public forum.

[Sares]

From all accounts our local club is similar. They are actually overtly hostile towards clickers and will chase someone across the oval to tell them off for having one I would join up in a heartbeat if they weren't like that because they train on the only day I'm not working or herding

Why would they be so hostile against clickers? I don’t understand how it would be a bad way of training? Does anyone know the argument against clickers?

We used clicker training for our Frenchie and she picked up all her training so quickly! From my personal experience, it has been an excellent way to train my puppy by targeting the right behaviours.

[Jumabaar]

From all accounts our local club is similar. They are actually overtly hostile towards clickers and will chase someone across the oval to tell them off for having one I would join up in a heartbeat if they weren't like that because they train on the only day I'm not working or herding

Why would they be so hostile against clickers? I don’t understand how it would be a bad way of training? Does anyone know the argument against clickers?

We used clicker training for our Frenchie and she picked up all her training so quickly! From my personal experience, it has been an excellent way to train my puppy by targeting the right behaviours.

I know my club doesn't allow clickers to be used in class as they feel it could distract other dogs BUT everyone has to have a marker word so its much of a muchness

[Weasels]

From all accounts our local club is similar. They are actually overtly hostile towards clickers and will chase someone across the oval to tell them off for having one I would join up in a heartbeat if they weren't like that because they train on the only day I'm not working or herding

Why would they be so hostile against clickers? I don’t understand how it would be a bad way of training? Does anyone know the argument against clickers?

We used clicker training for our Frenchie and she picked up all her training so quickly! From my personal experience, it has been an excellent way to train my puppy by targeting the right behaviours.

I know, weird right? And not just "our trainers don't use clickers" but actually chasing down people just for having one of "those things" in their possesion, like they're trying to bring drugs into a schoolyard or something. And I've heard this from more than one person separately.

[Erny]

On "cheating" I tend to think of "luring" as "cheating".

That's interesting, MRB ..... . Why do you think luring method of teaching is "cheating" ?

[perfect partners]

Alpha Dog Training are fantastic !

I had a gsd many years ago who many severe temperament issues and every trainer I enquirerd with told me to have my dog PTS and they couldn't help me.

With the help of Greg and his team of trainers my gsd went from being a nutcase to a fantastic well rounded dog who I could take anywhere and do anything with and I further trained many dog with Alpha as well as working for their boarding kennels for a few years .

We recommend our puppy people to them and are continually receiving great feedback about the training and how excellently their pups are going with the training.

People should definitely attend their free session and see for themselves what alpha do before bagging them on a public forum.

I did attend their free session and trained there and did the trainers course so I did see what they do! As I said, I did learn some good things there and certainly one of their pluses is that they will accept and try to help any dog. Some are successful but I also saw some people that went there for help with reactive/aggressive dogs and nothing really changed for them. As I also said, their methods suit some dogs - but there are a lot of dogs that don't do well with their methods. Yes they learn do do the basic exercises but not with any joy or willingness. I guess it just depends on the relationship you want with your dogs.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Why do you think luring method of teaching is "cheating" ?

Because quite a few trainers that I respect say to avoid it.

A couple say you can use it to get the initial behaviour and then you want the dog to figure out for itself what you want it to do, otherwise you don't get a behaviour on command, all you get is the dog following the lure. Which is ok if you have a lure available and not so good when you don't.

Ie long term - cheating tends to back fire or not get you want you really wanted.

I'm not sure if there is much difference between luring and hand targetting though. I use both to get doggy dancing moves... Hand targetting seems more acceptable for some reason, than using food or toy lures.

Maybe this is a separate topic? We also get the problem of is a lead rope a training aid... which could lead to is the handler's hand a training aid... should we hide the leads, and chop the hands off? (ie some vic agility judges seem to have problems with revving dogs up before runs).

[Erny]

IMO "luring" is an excellent technique. It is how it is applied, when it is used and for how long, that stuffs things up. But that is a handler error, not method error. So in my books, it isn't "cheating". If it helps with assisting a dog to understand what we are trying to teach, I don't think that's cheating or anything bad.

[FalconRange]

From all accounts our local club is similar. They are actually overtly hostile towards clickers and will chase someone across the oval to tell them off for having one I would join up in a heartbeat if they weren't like that because they train on the only day I'm not working or herding

Why would they be so hostile against clickers? I don’t understand how it would be a bad way of training? Does anyone know the argument against clickers?

We used clicker training for our Frenchie and she picked up all her training so quickly! From my personal experience, it has been an excellent way to train my puppy by targeting the right behaviours.

Our club discourages the use of clickers in class as if more than one clicker is being used, especially in close proximity to neighboring dogs, this can cause confusion for the dogs. Your neighbour might be marking the correct behaviour for their dog, but your dog may interpret it as correct for them when that may not be the case.

Clicker use at home is not discouraged though!

[Remarkabull]

For the record, I started the thread to get others opinions on this training and also because the lady I spoke too seemed very rigid about what I needed to do to 'fix' my dog. She basically told me that if I did what she said, with the equipment (halti) she recommends then I was guaranteed 100% that the problem would be fixed. All this without even seeing my dog or what he is like around other dogs. She kept saying that once I have him under control on lead we could work with him around other dogs, despite me saying a number of times that he walks fine on lead, even if other dogs are around?

There are 2 obedience clubs up here that I would love to attend but they are both too rigid in their methods and I'm not ok with that. One is extreme positive only and the other is ok but I disagree with some of the methods I saw on the couple of occasions I went.

I'm not here to bag her but what she offered and promised to me, without any contact with me or my dog beyond the one phone call gave me reason to be a bit alarmed by her methods and opinions.

[booge]

A few years back I attended Alpha dog training for about 18 months, I've been to other dog schools, that have slightly different methods. At alpha I liked the way the classes were more realistic in the dogs interaction. No walking in lines, stop turn, sit. It was basically dogs doing obedience but walking around each other in any direction on lead as you would in everyday life. The whole dog in a circle correction thing that they use worked to a point. My boxer (just doesn't listen under distraction) improved a bit, but that just could've been the fact he was around other dogs more often. Lots of staff, some very good, some very average. The school lost me when i paid over $100 to attend the special one day dog training at their kennels. Pretty much did 30 mins of obedience, nothing new, the rest of the time the dogs were in their kennels while we watched their DVD about problem dogs that they solved in only a few sessions. Just a very long "How good are we?" session. I can say I got ZERO out of it, and i never went back to the school after feeling so ripped off.

So that's my experience with them. Next dog I'm not sure if I'd go back, but so many other dog schools are incredibly mundane just walking back and forth for an hour. I want a place that adds a bit of fun and excitement. If anyone knows a good dog school in the Eastern suburbs of Victoria I'd love to know about it.

[jrm88]

I highly recommend croydon dog obedience :) they are fantastic :)

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

There's a delta dog trainer here that incorporates fun stuff into the classes... but that's not Victoria. But there might be one near you. The agility clubs use more fun methods, but ours requires you to graduate grade 5 paddock bashing first.

http://www.dpdta.com.au/trainers/browse/7/vic

I think Nehkbet and/or Erny (members here) run classes too.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Mrs Rusty Bucket