Alpha Dog Training?

[Weasels]

Sounds like this trainer thinks she understands Wolf Behaviour and has forgotten about selective breeding in domestic dogs for non-wolf like traits means that domestic dogs aren't constantly seeking higher rank order and therefore not everything revolves around 'dominance'.

*peripheral rant*

The thing that gets me with this is that we HAVE a wild dog that was semi-domesticated and is much closer to dogs than wolves are - the dingo. And a dingo social structure is basically whatever will get them the most resources: if they want to take large prey, they'll team up in packs. If they want to just grab a few rabbits, they'll strike out on their own. Basically it fits everything we understand about how dogs, being opportunists, will work for resources in the most efficient way possible and don't need a fixed social hierarchy to do it. Yet people insist on looking to old, flawed studies of captive wolves to inform how they see their dog's social ambitions.

/rant

*late for work now*

[perfect partners]

I went to Alpha Dog training and was doing their dog trainers course (only recognised by them), however I didn't finish it because of the effect their methods were having on my dog. You had to use a halter once they were 4 months old and were not allowed to use food or toy rewards - the only reward the dogs got was release from the exercise and praise. Works with some dogs, but mine was becoming more and more shut down and less responsive - their advice was to do more of it and get tougher with her - including keeping her outside rather than in the house - uh NO!! I also saw a lot of other unhappy shut down dogs. They had little empathy for the dogs. The guy who runs it did have a few good ideas but has a huge ego and lost credibility with me when he spent time bagging other training methods, said you can hurt a dog with a prong collar or correction chain but not with a halter, brushed off clicker training as just a gimmick, etc. Once I quit Alpha and got rid of the halter and started using food rewards my dog progressed rapidly and became an awesome and easy dog to train. One of the trainers was too hard on my sister's soft dog when teaching drop and made that exercise a problem for her. A friend of mine did some training with an Alpha trainer - puppy classes to about 12 months and had problems that were becoming serious. The trainer just blamed her for them! She is a person who puts in the time and effort and really tries to do what she's told. She's still dealing with the problems that should have been dealt with at the start but we have made huge improvements after ditching the Alpha methods.

I'm surprised she said they follow Cesar's methods as a few of them went to Cesar's first seminar in Melbourne (only because they got free tickets) and seemed unimpressed.

There are definitely much better trainers and training methods.

Edited June 5, 2012 by perfect partners

[Alkhe]

Sounds like this trainer thinks she understands Wolf Behaviour and has forgotten about selective breeding in domestic dogs for non-wolf like traits means that domestic dogs aren't constantly seeking higher rank order and therefore not everything revolves around 'dominance'.

*peripheral rant*

The thing that gets me with this is that we HAVE a wild dog that was semi-domesticated and is much closer to dogs than wolves are - the dingo. And a dingo social structure is basically whatever will get them the most resources: if they want to take large prey, they'll team up in packs. If they want to just grab a few rabbits, they'll strike out on their own. Basically it fits everything we understand about how dogs, being opportunists, will work for resources in the most efficient way possible and don't need a fixed social hierarchy to do it. Yet people insist on looking to old, flawed studies of captive wolves to inform how they see their dog's social ambitions.

/rant

*late for work now*

I’ve been reading about JUST this the last week or so. Suddenly so much that I have heard and learnt and thought I ‘understood’ now seems so stupid and wrong.

Like how previous studies of wolf behaviour were based on captive wolves that had been put together artificially. Ordinarily wolves live in family groups, and siblings/offspring leave the pack at a certain age – captive groups that studies were based on meant that the indiivudals who in the wild would have left the pack, were forced to stay. And hence ‘dominance’ type behaviour, etc etc. That’s a very crude summary, but ARGH it’s so INTERESTING.

[Weasels]

I’ve been reading about JUST this the last week or so. Suddenly so much that I have heard and learnt and thought I ‘understood’ now seems so stupid and wrong.

Like how previous studies of wolf behaviour were based on captive wolves that had been put together artificially. Ordinarily wolves live in family groups, and siblings/offspring leave the pack at a certain age – captive groups that studies were based on meant that the indiivudals who in the wild would have left the pack, were forced to stay. And hence ‘dominance’ type behaviour, etc etc. That’s a very crude summary, but ARGH it’s so INTERESTING.

Here's a good video from the 'godfather' of wolf ecology :)

Edit - I thought your summary was very good Alkhe

Edited May 4, 2012 by Weasels

[Alkhe]

Thanks! I'm going to watch this tonight too (along with the PBS documentary vid Blackdogs posted) - so excited! (I am such a nerd, I know).

The book I've been reading is 'In Defence of Dogs' by John Bradshaw, for anyone interested :)

[flame ryder]

I just finished reading a Cesar Milan training book. While I agree with some of the stuff alot of it seems weird and a bit un-doable. Like for instance in one chapter he says 'don't become a slave to your dog and get up to open doors when he wants to be let outside. Make him wait until you decide he should go outside" why would anyone do this?? Dog will wee or poo inside. We train them to ask to be let out to do their toilets. I just found that bit of info crazy.

I like to read anything I can get my hands on re dog training. Pool all the info together in my head and only use what I think is useful, good advice that suits my particular dog.

[Alkhe]

I just finished reading a Cesar Milan training book. While I agree with some of the stuff alot of it seems weird and a bit un-doable. Like for instance in one chapter he says 'don't become a slave to your dog and get up to open doors when he wants to be let outside. Make him wait until you decide he should go outside" why would anyone do this?? Dog will wee or poo inside. We train them to ask to be let out to do their toilets. I just found that bit of info crazy.

I like to read anything I can get my hands on re dog training. Pool all the info together in my head and only use what I think is useful, good advice that suits my particular dog.

My attitude to this stuff differs to a lot of people too - for better or worse, my dog sleeps on my bed (she comes into the bed for morning cuddles sometimes), eats from her bowl in the kitchen, is allowed on all the furniture - and this is fine. People have dogs for all sorts of reasons, and have lots of ideas about how they should co-exist with their owners. While I disagree with some approaches to training (usually because they're based on misconceptions or fallacies, and are counterproductive or worse) I really think the most important thing is that people keep their dogs in the way that suits them. And their dog.

I take issue with theories and approaches that dictate exactly how you should live and interact with your dog. On my understanding, most theories that have 'dominance' as a central theme or issue to combat, tend to be quite presctiptive in that way. As you mentioned, with only having the dog go through doors after you, or not letting the dog be higher than you, or ask for pats, or sleep on your bed, or.. whatever it may be.

I know people who have seen trainers, and been told that the dog MUST be fed outside, should never be on furniture, should sleep in teh laundry.. if that's not the way they want their dog to live, there's absolutely no reason why that kind of advice should be followed or advanced dogmatically. Some behavioural or other problems may have solutions that require particular things to happen - that's different. And that's fine. But any "rules" for what yuo "should" do in my opinion are .. well, crap.

So I'm in furious agreement with you teela! I also like to read around, watch what others do, and consider everything alongside what I want for my life with my dog - how I like her to behave, the boundaries that I think are appropriate, and how best to put that into place in a way that sits right wiht me and works.

[Dame Aussie]

Totally agree with you both. My dogs are treated like royalty but they still know their place and how to behave....most of the time lol

I think the whole dominance theory is crap.

[persephone]

'don't become a slave to your dog and get up to open doors when he wants to be let outside. Make him wait until you decide he should go outside" why would anyone do this?? Dog will wee or poo inside. We train them to ask to be let out to do their toilets.

The dogs don't decide when they go in or out here .... and the only time they toilet indoors is overnight if they have an upset tummy or something.

The other thing is that my house dogs are used to toileting on command , which means that they usually do toilet when told , and that means I know exactly when they have :) They are outside quite a bit .

I can well understand why the comment is written - imagine, owning a dog in a large city , in an apartment or something, and dog has learned that scratching at the door means he gets to go OUTSIDE , Yayyyy :) His poor owners must then take him out all the time , when mostly he doesn't need to toilet, but just wants to explore....

[Weasels]

were not allowed to use food or toy rewards - the only reward the dogs got was release from the exercise and praise.

Perfect partners it sucks that so many dogs had bad experiences due to these methods

I always wonder about the thinking behind the method I quoted above. You still need to feed the dog - so are the dogs working for praise and getting food for free?

I like to read anything I can get my hands on re dog training. Pool all the info together in my head and only use what I think is useful, good advice that suits my particular dog.

I like this, I try to absorb a lot of doggy information from people, books, wherever and then mentally sort it into 'rational', 'not rational' and 'possibly correct but not right for me & mine right now'. I heard a good explanation the other day - back when we didn't really understand much about dogs, people just tried a lot of things and kept doing what worked. But since so many things were all tied together, a lot of extra stuff got swept along with the good stuff (in a similar way to how superstitions arise). But now we've learnt more about the specific parts that were aiding in dog learning, but it's proving difficult to clear all the extras from the public conciousness

I have to say though, trainers etc. that cite scientific principles for their work get a lot further with me than the "I've owned/walked/bred dogs for x years so I know best" crowd. I'm not saying I dismiss the latter, but it's harder to verify their claims. Plus, whenever I watch Cesar Millan, I am overwhelmed with how not-fun it all looks compared to actually training a dog to do something new

Edited May 4, 2012 by Weasels

[mantis]

'don't become a slave to your dog and get up to open doors when he wants to be let outside. Make him wait until you decide he should go outside" why would anyone do this?? Dog will wee or poo inside. We train them to ask to be let out to do their toilets.

The dogs don't decide when they go in or out here .... and the only time they toilet indoors is overnight if they have an upset tummy or something.

The other thing is that my house dogs are used to toileting on command , which means that they usually do toilet when told , and that means I know exactly when they have :) They are outside quite a bit .

I can well understand why the comment is written - imagine, owning a dog in a large city , in an apartment or something, and dog has learned that scratching at the door means he gets to go OUTSIDE , Yayyyy :) His poor owners must then take him out all the time , when mostly he doesn't need to toilet, but just wants to explore....

Spot on. You learn to know when your dog really needs to "go toilies", or just wants to run amok.

I know there are a lot of people who don't like Cesars method of training, but I think he is great.

Edited May 4, 2012 by mantis

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Even Cesar Milan is being converted to reward based training...

Or more stuff from Professor John Bradshaw:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/jul/17/dog-training-john-bradshaw-animal-behaviour

[Erny]

No comment either way on other training, however just one thing to muse on for interest sake. I notice a good number of people submitting that they let their dogs on furniture, do what they want, etc. etc. and don't have any problems with their dogs, as though that is supposed to be testament to those things holding no value towards dogs' relationships with their owners.

IMO, that is NOT evidence that these things do or don't have a bearing on some dogs. I'm not talking in terms of height domination and so on ..... but I am talking in terms of providing dogs with structure, boundaries. I can attest to my own dog working to push my buttons harder when I let him up on the couch with me for a few nights in a row. I noticed improved behaviour when I didn't invite him for a while. This combined with a couple of developmental periods and I find that it is effecting him less and less as he matures. But the point is - it DOES have a bearing. Take it whichever way you want - I don't think of it in terms of "the highest ground" and so forth, but, depending on the dog, I do think of such things in terms of "personal space value" (something I tend to find many animals acutely aware of and harboring value of) and/or, quite simply, some "structure/boundaries".

I'm using 'on the couch' as simply one example. Over all, though, many of the dogs I see respond to the introduction of structure by the setting of boundaries that they may not have had or sufficiently clearly recognised. Some other dogs, I see response simply because the owners alter the structure already set. It can bring dogs to attention, so to speak ..... and that can open the door to those same dogs receiving the reward of that attention.

Many people talking about "not on bed" or "not on couch" boundaries automatically assume these things ONLY come from wolf pack mentality. Maybe that's where they originated from. Maybe the theory is wrong. However, I have seen results from introducing some of these things to the dog household. Contrary to what I was taught many many years ago, I don't tend to relate it back to the wolf-pack theory, although sometimes talking about dogs as they might be in the wild as an analogy can be helpful in keeping some explanations simple or at least clear and understandable. I tend to relate it to dogs recognising that the owners have rules. It also helps some owners to create structure in a household where structure simply didn't much exist and they didn't know where or how to start.

There were things I allowed/did with my previous dog that I couldn't allow with my current boy. Chalk and cheese as far as personality is concerned .... give my current boy an inch and he'll steal a mile. ..... oh, ok - sure, he'll retrieve it back again, but that's not the point (lol). There are also some things I did in bringing up my current dog that I wouldn't suggest others do - because dogs, people and lifestyles are so variable.

Please know that I am generalising here and wasn't going to post - but I think people are making a mistake to write some in-home structure off as a waste of time or baloney. Just because your dogs don't have these structures and are ok behaviour-wise doesn't mean it's pointless for other dogs to have those structures applied and to not expect improved behaviour. I think there's more to it than some people are appreciating. But I openly accept that it is not the be-all and end-all to the improvement in behaviour problems.

ETA: I'm not responding in defense or against the trainer advice described by the OP. Just taking the opportunity to raise a point that some might enjoy chewing over.

To the OP : I agree with one of the earlier posters - if you're not comfortable with the trainer, find someone else. Relating to and with a trainer/behaviourist can make the world of difference :).

Edited May 4, 2012 by Erny

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I know that NILIF works - I'm not very good at it but if my dog is being a serious PITA boundary pusher, I step up the program of work for everything you get. Pats, food, couch space, everything.

She doesn't like being on my bed - cos it's not very comfy. It keeps moving and catapulting her off. I think she got the idea that my bed was not for her one morning when she decided to try putting all four paws against me and pushing. She fell off the bed.

[mantis]

I agree Ermy. Kenny was allowed to sleep on the couch, but if I had visitors he was told to lie on his bed, he mightn't have been happy about it, but he knew when he was told his bed, then that was it.

[Alkhe]

No comment either way on other training, however just one thing to muse on for interest sake. I notice a good number of people submitting that they let their dogs on furniture, do what they want, etc. etc. and don't have any problems with their dogs, as though that is supposed to be testament to those things holding no value towards dogs' relationships with their owners.

IMO, that is NOT evidence that these things do or don't have a bearing on some dogs. I'm not talking in terms of height domination and so on ..... but I am talking in terms of providing dogs with structure, boundaries. I can attest to my own dog working to push my buttons harder when I let him up on the couch with me for a few nights in a row. I noticed improved behaviour when I didn't invite him for a while. This combined with a couple of developmental periods and I find that it is effecting him less and less as he matures. But the point is - it DOES have a bearing. Take it whichever way you want - I don't think of it in terms of "the highest ground" and so forth, but, depending on the dog, I do think of such things in terms of "personal space value" (something I tend to find many animals acutely aware of and harboring value of) and/or, quite simply, some "structure/boundaries".

I'm using 'on the couch' as simply one example. Over all, though, many of the dogs I see respond to the introduction of structure by the setting of boundaries that they may not have had or sufficiently clearly recognised. Some other dogs, I see response simply because the owners alter the structure already set. It can bring dogs to attention, so to speak ..... and that can open the door to those same dogs receiving the reward of that attention.

Many people talking about "not on bed" or "not on couch" boundaries automatically assume these things ONLY come from wolf pack mentality. Maybe that's where they originated from. Maybe the theory is wrong. However, I have seen results from introducing some of these things to the dog household. Contrary to what I was taught many many years ago, I don't tend to relate it back to the wolf-pack theory, although sometimes talking about dogs as they might be in the wild as an analogy can be helpful in keeping some explanations simple or at least clear and understandable. I tend to relate it to dogs recognising that the owners have rules. It also helps some owners to create structure in a household where structure simply didn't much exist and they didn't know where or how to start.

There were things I allowed/did with my previous dog that I couldn't allow with my current boy. Chalk and cheese as far as personality is concerned .... give my current boy an inch and he'll steal a mile. ..... oh, ok - sure, he'll retrieve it back again, but that's not the point (lol). There are also some things I did in bringing up my current dog that I wouldn't suggest others do - because dogs, people and lifestyles are so variable.

Please know that I am generalising here and wasn't going to post - but I think people are making a mistake to write some in-home structure off as a waste of time or baloney. I think there's more to it than some people are appreciating. But I openly accept that it is not the be-all and end-all to the improvement in behaviour problems.

Despite being one of those people who don't mind dogs on furniture etc, I do completely understand what you're saying. I also don't equate me allowing my dog on the couch and bed etc with these things having no value in the relationship - I just believe that for my current dog, bearing in mind her personality and to be honest, her size (!) they're not things that I place value on. Ie, drawing and enforcing boundaries in that way. Though if I had a different breed or individual dog, my attitude may be different; it all depends on the context, and what you want your house to be like, how you want the dogs to act and exist there.

For instance, when I was fostering a greyhound before I got my current dog (just over a year ago) I had a different set of expectations and desires for him. He wasn't allowed on the bed, for instance, and ate outside. And as he wasn't going to live permanently with me, those things become more important in terms of setting those PARTICULAR boundaries, purely because they're the kind of things that I know others do consider important. Also instilling in him a sense of boundaries and rules, even if the actual "subject" of those altered.

A house with no rules or boundaries could well be a recipe for disaster, and in such cases creating and enforcing them would I'm sure be a welcome relief for dog and owner alike. But I just don't believe that arbitrary rules about where and how things should happen are really appropriate. That's all :) I'm not sure whether I've explained myself particularly well, since it's past midnight and I'm exhausted. But basically, not being fussed by particular things that some people (and training methods) consider really important doesn't mean that I'm not fussed about anything, and that anything goes. Far from it - I have a very harmonious house (apart from my housemate, but if he were a dog I'm sure I could do something about that. Even if it was PTS.. :D ) and Maggie knows that there are rules. Even if they're more along the lines of 'don't go into that housemate's room' rather than sleep in the laundry rather than on my bed. Cuddling with her in the morning is one of my favourite things in the world - I'm not changing that for anyone's training method! :laugh:

[Weasels]

This link just showed up in my FB feed - it seemd relevant here :)

http://www.petprofessionalguild.com/PPGOfficialBlog?mode=PostView&bmi=912006

[Ben and Jerry]

Apparently, by telling him 'no' in a firm voice and turning him in a circle every time he becomes aroused when he see's another dog he will understand that he is doing the wrong thing and will then improve very quickly.

Sounds like what the behaviourist I saw told me except I had the added let my dog reach the end of his lead then yank him back. I was told he has fear aggression without the behaviourist even seeing how he interacted with other dogs (is that even possible to say just from talking with the dog ). I reakon I paid my money just to hear about wild dogs and how there packs work, and was then given a training plan that really seemed to do nothing even when I did what I was told.

[huski]

I don't think there is any doubt that dominance exists in dogs but I think a truly dominant dog is rare, and the term 'dominance' is really over used as a label for behaviours that actually have nothing to do with dominance.

[lovemesideways]

I don't think there is any doubt that dominance exists in dogs but I think a truly dominant dog is rare, and the term 'dominance' is really over used as a label for behaviours that actually have nothing to do with dominance.

SOOOOooooooooooooooooo much!

Oh god, your dog jumps up on you? DOMINANT!!!

Your dog growls over food? DOMINANT!!!!

Your dog attacks other dogs? DOMINANT!!!!