Must Ask Questions When Buying A Puppy

[Jed]

Sky Soaring Magpie

So, this means you do the heart testing yourself - for cardiac dysrhythmia and for a failing heart? I've been shown how to do the latter so could probably disqualify dogs from my breeding program if I had to, but I still prefer to have a bit of paper from someone with a degree from a veterinary school to qualify dogs. If that makes me inexperienced, oh well.

I don't classify health tests are the same as the dog being checked by the gp vet. Ithought, as a breeder, you would know the difference between "tests" and "vet visits". Maybe not. No bitch is in my program unless she has passed her tests, and mother, father, aunts and uncles have no problems.

Of course people should do the tests, my boxers were holter monitored and I suppose in future they wil be tested for ARCV - if I ever breed again, and the Cavs are tested by a cardiologist. And I have a "bit of paper". And if they ever fail, the whole lot is dismissed from the breeding program.

They do not go to the gp vet for that testing, as you well know.

And they do not go to the vet for checkups, because they are not unwell. If they failed the specific tests, they are out of the breeding program, if they need to go the the gp vet for illnesses, they are out of the breeding program.

And I have never had the urge to conduct my own testing, thanks

But like Oakway, I don't see any point in trundling them to the vet for nameless "checks". If you equate checks with health tests, you are welcome. I don't think anyone else does.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Jed

[Angeluca]

Experienced owners/exhibitors/breeders can tell whether the bitch is healthy or not. Ditto for a dental, they know whether the dogs need a dental or not. AVA approved vacs are now 3 yearly.

My dogs are healthy 100% of the time. They may become less healthy over 10 years. I would never never contemplate breeding a dog or a bitch which was not in excellent health and stayed in excellent health.

I'm sorry if i'm getting this wrong.

But my point is dog do go to the vets healthy, I ever stated all the time it may only be 5-10 time in their entire lives but for a number of reasons they have to go to the vet. When a bitch is presented for health test or vaccinations which ever they are she is seen by a vet. 9 times out of 10 vets do a quick look over as part of their consolation regardless the reason she is there. For example A vet that put a dog under for hip test without a quick check needs to have their licence revoked IMO.

I would not take a litter or dam into a clinic either but vets do house calls IF needed, not saying every litter needs checking.

Have you never had a c-section or mastitis or retained products in any of your bitches? great if you haven't but some of these situations arise during breeding regularly, even in the best of situations in the best kennels. Puppies also have an array of little complications that sometimes occur. (Please note I am not speaking in experience just research in my progress in becoming a breeder)

Have you never a dog with a stomach bug, any minor issue (like licked a toad ) or suffered any aged sickness, blindness or arthritis issue or needed medication what so ever? A statement of 100% healthy is a very bold statement.

Please note I don't question your ethics or methods of breeding and selling your puppies. Just saying even the most experienced owner/exhibitor/breeder and vet can not predict and assume they know very thing about their dog inside and out 100% of the time. And Some are willing to breed a less then 100% healthy dog for whatever reason. Which is why health checks are in place, and we recommend puppy buyers see the litter, dam + sire if possible and Any health checks available. I never meant that buyers should request or demand health checks, thats crazy! just ask what is available (and yes do the research to know what is required to be available) and if they feel comfortable with the breeder then continue on their purchase otherwise move on.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I don't classify health tests are the same as the dog being checked by the gp vet. Ithought, as a breeder, you would know the difference between "tests" and "vet visits". Maybe not. No bitch is in my program unless she has passed her tests, and mother, father, aunts and uncles have no problems.

Of course people should do the tests, my boxers were holter monitored and I suppose in future they wil be tested for ARCV - if I ever breed again, and the Cavs are tested by a cardiologist. And I have a "bit of paper". And if they ever fail, the whole lot is dismissed from the breeding program.

They do not go to the gp vet for that testing, as you well know.

And they do not go to the vet for checkups, because they are not unwell. If they failed the specific tests, they are out of the breeding program, if they need to go the the gp vet for illnesses, they are out of the breeding program.

And I have never had the urge to conduct my own testing, thanks

But like Oakway, I don't see any point in trundling them to the vet for nameless "checks". If you equate checks with health tests, you are welcome. I don't think anyone else does.

Right. As we've discussed before, clarity about the definition of "vet check", "health test" and "genetic test" is important to these discussions. However, you said "experienced owners/exhibitors/breeders can tell whether the bitch is healthy or not". So what exactly do you mean by that? What aspects of "healthy" can you assess as an experienced breeder that the vet cannot or should not?

[Jed]

SSm I am quite sure you know the answer to this one.

:)

[Jed]

Experienced owners/exhibitors/breeders can tell whether the bitch is healthy or not. Ditto for a dental, they know whether the dogs need a dental or not. AVA approved vacs are now 3 yearly.

My dogs are healthy 100% of the time. They may become less healthy over 10 years. I would never never contemplate breeding a dog or a bitch which was not in excellent health and stayed in excellent health.

I'm sorry if i'm getting this wrong.

But my point is dog do go to the vets healthy, I ever stated all the time it may only be 5-10 time in their entire lives but for a number of reasons they have to go to the vet. When a bitch is presented for health test or vaccinations which ever they are she is seen by a vet. 9 times out of 10 vets do a quick look over as part of their consolation regardless the reason she is there. For example A vet that put a dog under for hip test without a quick check needs to have their licence revoked IMO.

I would not take a litter or dam into a clinic either but vets do house calls IF needed, not saying every litter needs checking.

Have you never had a c-section or mastitis or retained products in any of your bitches? great if you haven't but some of these situations arise during breeding regularly, even in the best of situations in the best kennels. Puppies also have an array of little complications that sometimes occur. (Please note I am not speaking in experience just research in my progress in becoming a breeder)

Have you never a dog with a stomach bug, any minor issue (like licked a toad ) or suffered any aged sickness, blindness or arthritis issue or needed medication what so ever? A statement of 100% healthy is a very bold statement.

Please note I don't question your ethics or methods of breeding and selling your puppies. Just saying even the most experienced owner/exhibitor/breeder and vet can not predict and assume they know very thing about their dog inside and out 100% of the time. And Some are willing to breed a less then 100% healthy dog for whatever reason. Which is why health checks are in place, and we recommend puppy buyers see the litter, dam + sire if possible and Any health checks available. I never meant that buyers should request or demand health checks, thats crazy! just ask what is available (and yes do the research to know what is required to be available) and if they feel comfortable with the breeder then continue on their purchase otherwise move on.

Of course buyers should ask for the results of health tests. I give puppy buyers a copy to take with them.

I very rarely have a dog with a stomach bug. And if I take the dog to the emergency vet for toad or tick envenomation, they do not generally check the dog, they specifically check to solve or ameliorate the problem

And some areas do not have travelling vets, as some areas have hopeless travelling vets.

Day to day health is assessed by activity level and behaviour, colour of gums and mucous mebrananes, look of skin, appetite, droppings, frequency of urination and quantity of water drunk and general behaviour.

I mentioned that after 10 years the dogs are probably going to have more vet visits, which covers what you mention about arthritis etc. Some do and some don't.

I am not willing to breed a less than healthy dog. All the dogs in my breeding program are 100% healthy, otherwise they are not in it. They don't get the runs in any major way, they don't have bad skin, they don't scratch, blah blah.

IMHO, every breeder should adopt the same attitude. There is no dog so winning, or so good looking that he can afford not to have premium health.

And don't think I am the only breeder with this attitude. I don't want dogs I have to run down to the vet every couple of weeks, or every month, I don't want to pay the bills. I want healthy dogs who don't need the vet.

Any deviations from the above, or some other signs, it is time for the vet. My job is to ensure the dogs are healthy.

If all the above are good, why should the dog go to the vet? All he would do is what I have done, and maybe take the temperature and say all good.

IMHO, people who cannot tell whether their dogs are healthy or not should not be breeding. Perhaps in the beginning, while they are learning they should have the vet check the dog, but it should not be needed aftewards.

If the dog is genetically healthy, is wormed regularly, is treated for parasites, is fed correctly and handled correctly, there is no need for frequent vet visits.

As mentioned to SSM - I am not talking about health checks - ie, heart, HP, LP etc, but visits to the GP vet as you mentioned. Some breeders do like to take their dogs for frequent checks, and that is how you tune your "eye" to know whether the dogs are healthy or not.

I don't care whether others take their dogs to the vet every day. That is their business. My business is to breed healthy dogs from healthy parents. I see no reason to be continually taking them to the vet. The people to question my ethics are not the people on this forum, but my buyers, and over nearly 40 years I have had many repeat purchases.

All breeders are not the same, and all breeders do not operate in the same way.

And I guarantee my dogs' health when I sell them.

I hope that qualifies my attitude a little more.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Jed

[_PL_]

OP. I think it's great that you're helping. There's definitely questions that people should ask.

I do think though, that you could word it to put a bit of onus back on the seeker though. There's no use providing a list that they can copy and paste into an email without actually thinking about why they need to ask or if it is appropriate to the breed.

Encourage breed research, clue them in on the magical teacups, extra money for blue coats, no-shedding promises (because no-shed doesn't mean no-groom lol). Have them ask themselves questions as well like do I have 15yrs to devote to this puppy...or the time to train them now...will this breed's needs be too much for me.....can I afford vet bills....are all the residents of home including 4legged ready for this pup...

I guess I'm saying arm them with more than a list to send. :)

[SkySoaringMagpie]

SSm I am quite sure you know the answer to this one.

:)

Edit, having pondered this overnight, we were talking at cross purposes. The original subthread was about situations where there are no breed specific tests of a formal kind. So a puppy buyer posing the question "What health tests have you done" is likely to lead to the kind of messy discussion we've had here unless the breeder and the buyer know what they are answering/asking for that breed.

My view, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me, is that for my breed, a pre-breeding vet check is important on top of the health tests. Like most dog people I deal with rips, tummy bugs, kennel cough etc myself as you mention. However, many Salukis will still be standing looking normal until the moment they drop dead. So I take mine to a vet to rule out what I can rule out beforehand. Sway said something a while ago about improving your odds as best you can. That's my philosophy too, I know I can't tick every box and rule out every eventuality. However, while it's not my place to give examples as they weren't my dogs, I would like to try and avoid some of the things I know have happened with bitches having a terminal disease while raising a litter of pups.

Edited May 3, 2012 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Guest donatella]

We get a lot of emails from people asking us what questions they need to ask when they are buying a puppy. (note: we dont actually sell puppies in our shop...)

So im compiling a list of questions that should be asked whether buying from a registered breeder, a pet shop, or worse, a byb. I figured i would consult the DOL community and see what we came up with?

So, what are the must ask questions and why???

You do realise pet shop puppies come from BYBs, just you can't see the parents, they get dumped at the shop when old enough, put into a small box, glared at by hundreds through a glass window that is tapped on all day by morons. What could be worse then that?

[Angeluca]

Jed

I don't think you had attitude, you are confident with your stock and have a very strict system. That is excellent. I do believe there are a few breeders out their that are far too relaxed. There was a thread recently with a poll about showing and breeding with a major structural defect. I personally found some of the answer alarming but hope they didn't understand the question when they voted (for the breeding more so but both really)

As I said I am not experience, so my posts were more questions then statements on other breeders practices. And I found yours and SSM's replys while both different, very informative.

[minimax]

I think if most breeders were presented with a list of generic questions like these ones from a potential buyer, they would roll their eyes. At least, that seems to be the attitude from what I've seen on DOL.

These questions might be appropriate to ask when buying from a pet shop or dodgy person, but as this thread proves, not one set of questions is appropriate for every puppy or every breed or every breeder.

[Dame Aussie]

At the very least:

*Breed specific health tests (and results). The buyer needs to research the breed to find out exactly what these are. In cross breeds this includes relevant tests for BOTH parent breeds. Cross breeding will not cancel out genetic health problems. A 'vet check' does not screen for possible genetic issues!

*Worming and vaccination schedules (again, buyer needs to be aware of how often pups need to be wormed and vacc protocols)

*Socialisation of pups

*What type of dogs the breeder expects this litter to produce and what kind of homes they will be suited to.

*Temperament of parents - good with kids, good with other animals, confident and outgoing or reserved with strangers, laid back and easy going or high drive and energetic.

*Papers - will the pups be registered? If so, with whom? - buyer needs to make sure that the pup will be registered with a legitimate body (ie ANKC) and appropriate papers provided.

Followed by:

*Meet the parents (at the very minimum meet the mother)

*Assess the environment - is it clean? Do the dogs appear to be well kept?

*Assess temperament of parents - Stable, friendly, approachable? Skittish, aggressive, etc?

*Assess the pups - are they alert, playful and friendly? Or are the fearful, snappy or lethargic?

*Discuss contracts and/or restrictions the breeder may place on their pups

*Health guarantees? What is covered, will the breeder refund or replace if the pup suffers from a genetic condition.

This covered all the questions I thought of too

[oakway]

Experienced owners/exhibitors/breeders can tell whether the bitch is healthy or not. Ditto for a dental, they know whether the dogs need a dental or not. AVA approved vacs are now 3 yearly.

My dogs are healthy 100% of the time. They may become less healthy over 10 years. I would never never contemplate breeding a dog or a bitch which was not in excellent health and stayed in excellent health.

I'm sorry if i'm getting this wrong.

But my point is dog do go to the vets healthy, I ever stated all the time it may only be 5-10 time in their entire lives but for a number of reasons they have to go to the vet. When a bitch is presented for health test or vaccinations which ever they are she is seen by a vet. 9 times out of 10 vets do a quick look over as part of their consolation regardless the reason she is there. For example A vet that put a dog under for hip test without a quick check needs to have their licence revoked IMO.

I would not take a litter or dam into a clinic either but vets do house calls IF needed, not saying every litter needs checking.

Have you never had a c-section or mastitis or retained products in any of your bitches? great if you haven't but some of these situations arise during breeding regularly, even in the best of situations in the best kennels. Puppies also have an array of little complications that sometimes occur. (Please note I am not speaking in experience just research in my progress in becoming a breeder)

Have you never a dog with a stomach bug, any minor issue (like licked a toad ) or suffered any aged sickness, blindness or arthritis issue or needed medication what so ever? A statement of 100% healthy is a very bold statement.

Please note I don't question your ethics or methods of breeding and selling your puppies. Just saying even the most experienced owner/exhibitor/breeder and vet can not predict and assume they know very thing about their dog inside and out 100% of the time. And Some are willing to breed a less then 100% healthy dog for whatever reason. Which is why health checks are in place, and we recommend puppy buyers see the litter, dam + sire if possible and Any health checks available. I never meant that buyers should request or demand health checks, thats crazy! just ask what is available (and yes do the research to know what is required to be available) and if they feel comfortable with the breeder then continue on their purchase otherwise move on.

Of course buyers should ask for the results of health tests. I give puppy buyers a copy to take with them.

I very rarely have a dog with a stomach bug. And if I take the dog to the emergency vet for toad or tick envenomation, they do not generally check the dog, they specifically check to solve or ameliorate the problem

And some areas do not have travelling vets, as some areas have hopeless travelling vets.

Day to day health is assessed by activity level and behaviour, colour of gums and mucous mebrananes, look of skin, appetite, droppings, frequency of urination and quantity of water drunk and general behaviour.

I mentioned that after 10 years the dogs are probably going to have more vet visits, which covers what you mention about arthritis etc. Some do and some don't.

I am not willing to breed a less than healthy dog. All the dogs in my breeding program are 100% healthy, otherwise they are not in it. They don't get the runs in any major way, they don't have bad skin, they don't scratch, blah blah.

IMHO, every breeder should adopt the same attitude. There is no dog so winning, or so good looking that he can afford not to have premium health.

And don't think I am the only breeder with this attitude. I don't want dogs I have to run down to the vet every couple of weeks, or every month, I don't want to pay the bills. I want healthy dogs who don't need the vet.

Any deviations from the above, or some other signs, it is time for the vet. My job is to ensure the dogs are healthy.

If all the above are good, why should the dog go to the vet? All he would do is what I have done, and maybe take the temperature and say all good.

IMHO, people who cannot tell whether their dogs are healthy or not should not be breeding. Perhaps in the beginning, while they are learning they should have the vet check the dog, but it should not be needed aftewards.

If the dog is genetically healthy, is wormed regularly, is treated for parasites, is fed correctly and handled correctly, there is no need for frequent vet visits.

As mentioned to SSM - I am not talking about health checks - ie, heart, HP, LP etc, but visits to the GP vet as you mentioned. Some breeders do like to take their dogs for frequent checks, and that is how you tune your "eye" to know whether the dogs are healthy or not.

I don't care whether others take their dogs to the vet every day. That is their business. My business is to breed healthy dogs from healthy parents. I see no reason to be continually taking them to the vet. The people to question my ethics are not the people on this forum, but my buyers, and over nearly 40 years I have had many repeat purchases.

All breeders are not the same, and all breeders do not operate in the same way.

And I guarantee my dogs' health when I sell them.

I hope that qualifies my attitude a little more.

:thumbsup:

[Kia]

For my breed Australian Shepherds, we have a website that covers the health issues that can arise and the protocol many breeders follow for testing (it is a USA website). It is writen with the lay person in mind and very easily understood. I send the link so anyone wanting to can research and see what questions they need to ask. Although I usually have explained what testing I have done before they ask.

Perhaps sending pet people to the breed club website of their state is a place to start and they can research the health issues from there.

[sas]

At Great Dane Rescue we have a info sheet, it is specific to Great Danes, however there is generic info in there as well: http://www.greatdanerescue.com.au/Docs/buying_a_puppy.pdf

[Online Pets]

Question: What health checks have been completed on the stud and the bitch, and can I see the results?

Hang on a minute what about the dogs that don't have any health checks or DNA testing available at this stage of time.

I was asked for a hip dysplasia certificate because the the people had been told to ask for one.

There was no way I could convince these purchasers that that there were none done for my breed.

Where did they get this advise, from people on a dog list. :)

Please advise to ask for health, DNA check where it is advisable for that breed.

Don't forget that the more test's where applicable, on each generation, the greater the percentage of puppies MAY be clear by parentage over a period of time.

Thats a good point, not all breeds are the same. Maybe i should research some breed specific Q's as well?

[Online Pets]

We get a lot of emails from people asking us what questions they need to ask when they are buying a puppy. (note: we dont actually sell puppies in our shop...)

So im compiling a list of questions that should be asked whether buying from a registered breeder, a pet shop, or worse, a byb. I figured i would consult the DOL community and see what we came up with?

So, what are the must ask questions and why???

Interesting that you think BYB is "worse" than buying from a pet shop, considering that's where most pet shops get their stock from

Health checks is a valid question. Surely even dogs without HD or known genetic issues have vet checks before breeding etc?

I guess the reason i like BYB's less than Pet Shops, is when dealing with a business there is always going to be a higher level of accountability should something go wrong. Whereas there is almost no accountability from the guy whose ad you answered in the classifieds who had these pups for sale. Also you take pets shops out of the equation BYB's still exist. You take BYB's out of the equation and you also make it a lot harder for the pet shops to source their puppies/kittens resulting in much fewer shops selling puppies.

[minimax]

I guess the reason i like BYB's less than Pet Shops, is when dealing with a business there is always going to be a higher level of accountability should something go wrong. Whereas there is almost no accountability from the guy whose ad you answered in the classifieds who had these pups for sale. Also you take pets shops out of the equation BYB's still exist. You take BYB's out of the equation and you also make it a lot harder for the pet shops to source their puppies/kittens resulting in much fewer shops selling puppies.

Pet shops activly support the BYB industry by buying their products so often, doesn't this make them "worse"?

To a degree both industries support the other, take one away and the other will still exist, but struggle for a while until it picks up market elsewhere. Taking away BYB might force pet shops to source their animals from better places though, whilst taking away pet shops won't make BYB create better animals.

A lot of the questions/answers we've come up in this thread would be irrelevant for pet shops as they are mostly cross breds from BYB, and wouldn't be registered or have papers or pass any health checks.

[Red Fox]

A lot of the questions/answers we've come up in this thread would be irrelevant for pet shops as they are mostly cross breds from BYB, and wouldn't be registered or have papers or pass any health checks.

But, a good percentage of the general public doesn't understand this. Plenty are convinced they have purchased a 'pure bred, health checked, papered' pup from a pet store when what they have actually got is a vacc card from the vet (possibly with the 'breed' stated on it) and a receipt.

Most pet stores will happily tell you that their pups come from 'breeders', (of course they do!), have 'papers', are wormed, healthy, vet checked and vaccinated. And they are not necessarily lying... Nor is the BYB who tells you their adult dogs are 'registered'. Doesn't have to mean the dogs are ANKC registered - it could well mean they are registered with the local council of the buyer doesn't ask.

If a buyer is aware of correct (breed specific) health testing, appropriate paperwork and registration, and where pet shop puppies actually come from then there is a lot less confusion. The questions are only 'irrelevant' to those who already understand the difference.

[Angeluca]

I guess the reason i like BYB's less than Pet Shops, is when dealing with a business there is always going to be a higher level of accountability should something go wrong. Whereas there is almost no accountability from the guy whose ad you answered in the classifieds who had these pups for sale. Also you take pets shops out of the equation BYB's still exist. You take BYB's out of the equation and you also make it a lot harder for the pet shops to source their puppies/kittens resulting in much fewer shops selling puppies.

Pet shops activly support the BYB industry by buying their products so often, doesn't this make them "worse"?

To a degree both industries support the other, take one away and the other will still exist, but struggle for a while until it picks up market elsewhere. Taking away BYB might force pet shops to source their animals from better places though, whilst taking away pet shops won't make BYB create better animals.

A lot of the questions/answers we've come up in this thread would be irrelevant for pet shops as they are mostly cross breds from BYB, and wouldn't be registered or have papers or pass any health checks.

I think the reason behind the belief that pet shops are worse is they don't only get pups from byb, but run of the mill puppy farms and mass producers. A majority of these types of facilities do not accommodate any care or well being of the stock the hold, and do not vac or worm let alone exercise and properly feed the animals the receive their income off. BYB is more so referred to the family pet that is usually offered space of a yard not a cage, and usually has contact and stimulation. that some one thought they could either get a quick buck from or an accident has happened. In this instance BYB is not worse the pet shops cause BYBs don't support the puppy farming trade.

Pet shops are hardly accountable. Some have a 5 day refund policy but unless you buy a visibly sick pup, by the time issues arise it is no longer their problem. It's the to bad so sad scenario.

[Online Pets]

It's taken a while, but i have read and tried to absorb every post in this thread so far. I'm thinking it will be better to extend my idea a little and go through and research breed by breed, rather than a generic "ask these questions". Time to start doing some research and educate myself on all breeds!

As mentioned above the majority of people dont understand "papers", "pure breed" etc. Actually it reminds me of a conversation i had with my step-brothers girlfriend a few weeks ago. She mentioned she was getting a pure breed Labradoodle from a show breeder. Maybe i am wrong but my response was, Labradoodle is a cross breed "designer dog" not a pure breed dog.