Advice Needed

[Wags]

If that is the case wags then I would find the duplicity frustrating and annoying and would make me think twice about wanting my pup to go to that home but I still don't think it is right or that the breeder has the right to keep the deposit should the pup be given a clean bill of health.

Yes, well, the problem is that the family has agreed in writing that if the heart murmur disappears, she is not eligible for a refund, but then family has changed tack and will only accept the non-refund of the deposit include the completion of the purchase of the puppy !!!!!! The breeder understandably refused this offer and indicate that since the first contract has been severed, a new contract would be required. She further advised that given the attitude and behaviour that has been displayed to her, she would not be prepared to provide a puppy to he

Edited May 6, 2012 by Wags

[Wags]

A family member put a large deposit (33%) for a puppy. At the puppy's 6 week health check last week the vet detected a 2/6 heart murmur. What makes it worse is the breeder wants final payment this week - 1 week before they pick up the puppy. They spoke to the breeder about waiting until the puppy has the all clear before they pay and take puppy but she did not agree to this.

They have therefore decided that they do not want to take the puppy and have requested a refund. The breeder has refused. Her terms and conditions hidden on The website in a place you would not look state the deposit is non-refundable or refundable at their discretion.

I cannot understand how she can refuse to refund when the puppy has a heart murmur. This is not what they put the deposit on!

Any advice of next steps they could take?

If you are going to ask for assistance, it's a good idea to give the actual facts. I know this breeder and have been privy to interaction between the two of you.

Firstly, the puppy murmur was diagnosed as 'probably innocent' - details you left out.

Secondly, The breeder asked you to contact her if you had any queries or qualms when she provided you with the health certificate.

When you contacted the breeder, three days later, you made if very clear that you wished to take delivery of the puppy and only wanted reassurance that the breeder would be there if the puppy's murmur had not completely disappeared.

You expressed to the breeder that you were completely happy with the discussion. You also told her you wish you had contacted her in the first place instead of worrying about it all weekend. You were asked by the breeder to contact her again if you had a dose of the doubts or needed any clarification. This was a very calm, chatty, receptive conversation, as witnessed by a third party, it so happens. At no time did the breeder insist or demand that you take the puppy on time, nor did she demand final payment. At no time did you raise any form of delay in taking the puppy, in fact you insisted that you wanted to take delivery of the puppy.

Two days after this, the breeder was advised by her vet that your vet had contacted her. You did not afford the breeder any form of common decency of contacting her, not even to advise that you still had some doubts and were intending to have your vet contact mine. The breeder readily gave her vet permission to contact yours.

That evening, the breeder contacted you again, advising that she had been advised in regard to the vet contact and asking whether you had heard back from your vet, whether you still had any doubts or wished to discuss anything with her. You insisted no, that the vet contact was only as a result of a casual conversation with your vet while having your other dog innoculated. You said you had not yet heard back and had forgotten all about it. You insisted that you were fine with everything and all was well.

The next day, you sent an email severing the purchase agreement and demanded your refund back.

The breeder - again in a state of confusion about your duplicity, contacted her vet and ascertained that she had come out of surgery to phone your vet as as your vet was busy, she left a message with the receptionist advising what she had noted on the health certificate and also adding that she was 90% sure that the puppy murmur would disappear within the 12 weeks.

It was at this point that the breeder replyed to your email exercising her right to retain the deposit by way of compensation. The terms and conditions are CLEARLY indicated on the breeder's website.

In an effort to resolve the matter, the breeder has also made extremely reasonable efforts to resolve the matter of the refund while you barraged her with harrassing emails, changing tack with nearly every email and threatening her in the process.

Frankly, I believe this breeder is well within her rights to retain the deposit when the facts are known. She has been communicative, understanding, receptive, resolving and honest.

If that is the case then the breeder needs to understand that a potential health issue is quite a large thing for a prospective owner to wrap their heads around and what she sees as the buyers being "duplicitous" could merely be them trying to be polite and not cause a scene to her face whilst privately freaking out at the situation. After processing it they have concluded that they do not wish to take on this pup and the breeder, irregardless of the purchasers actions, should be ethically bound to refund.

I do not believe that this breeder has any rights to retain the deposit when the whole issue is surrounding the possible ill health of a pup. Whether the potential purchasers are acting badly or not, it does not give the breeder the right to behave poorly in return. The breeder should , in my opinion, take the higher road, refund the money and wash her/his hands of the situation that is clearly angst driven on both sides and have done with it.

The breeder has acknowledge to the family that a puppy murmur can be very scary to anyone who hasn't had the experience of them, as with the breeder and her vet - this was acknowledge when providing the health certificate in the first place. Please note that the breeder conducted herself in a manner to communicate, calmly and receptively and in an understanding manner with the family and was indeed ready to not only work out details that suited both parties, but stated that she would rather not provide a puppy if there were doubts - it was the family insistance they wanted to take delivery that set the direction of the discussion.

If you had, as I have, viewed the correspondence between the parties you may have more understanding of why the off by the breeder to refund if the murmur continues is a very fair one. Frankly the harrassment she received and responded calmly to would have had other repercussions for the family if dealing with anyone else. Not only does she deserve compensation for what she has had to endure, but also a medal.

[corrie]

Did the emails begin after it was stated that they cannot have the pup but the deposit would also not be refunded?

Edited May 6, 2012 by corrie

[Bow Wow]

A family member put a large deposit (33%) for a puppy. At the puppy's 6 week health check last week the vet detected a 2/6 heart murmur. What makes it worse is the breeder wants final payment this week - 1 week before they pick up the puppy. They spoke to the breeder about waiting until the puppy has the all clear before they pay and take puppy but she did not agree to this.

They have therefore decided that they do not want to take the puppy and have requested a refund. The breeder has refused. Her terms and conditions hidden on The website in a place you would not look state the deposit is non-refundable or refundable at their discretion.

I cannot understand how she can refuse to refund when the puppy has a heart murmur. This is not what they put the deposit on!

Any advice of next steps they could take?

If you are going to ask for assistance, it's a good idea to give the actual facts. I know this breeder and have been privy to interaction between the two of you.

Firstly, the puppy murmur was diagnosed as 'probably innocent' - details you left out.

Secondly, The breeder asked you to contact her if you had any queries or qualms when she provided you with the health certificate.

When you contacted the breeder, three days later, you made if very clear that you wished to take delivery of the puppy and only wanted reassurance that the breeder would be there if the puppy's murmur had not completely disappeared.

You expressed to the breeder that you were completely happy with the discussion. You also told her you wish you had contacted her in the first place instead of worrying about it all weekend. You were asked by the breeder to contact her again if you had a dose of the doubts or needed any clarification. This was a very calm, chatty, receptive conversation, as witnessed by a third party, it so happens. At no time did the breeder insist or demand that you take the puppy on time, nor did she demand final payment. At no time did you raise any form of delay in taking the puppy, in fact you insisted that you wanted to take delivery of the puppy.

Two days after this, the breeder was advised by her vet that your vet had contacted her. You did not afford the breeder any form of common decency of contacting her, not even to advise that you still had some doubts and were intending to have your vet contact mine. The breeder readily gave her vet permission to contact yours.

That evening, the breeder contacted you again, advising that she had been advised in regard to the vet contact and asking whether you had heard back from your vet, whether you still had any doubts or wished to discuss anything with her. You insisted no, that the vet contact was only as a result of a casual conversation with your vet while having your other dog innoculated. You said you had not yet heard back and had forgotten all about it. You insisted that you were fine with everything and all was well.

The next day, you sent an email severing the purchase agreement and demanded your refund back.

The breeder - again in a state of confusion about your duplicity, contacted her vet and ascertained that she had come out of surgery to phone your vet as as your vet was busy, she left a message with the receptionist advising what she had noted on the health certificate and also adding that she was 90% sure that the puppy murmur would disappear within the 12 weeks.

It was at this point that the breeder replyed to your email exercising her right to retain the deposit by way of compensation. The terms and conditions are CLEARLY indicated on the breeder's website.

In an effort to resolve the matter, the breeder has also made extremely reasonable efforts to resolve the matter of the refund while you barraged her with harrassing emails, changing tack with nearly every email and threatening her in the process.

Frankly, I believe this breeder is well within her rights to retain the deposit when the facts are known. She has been communicative, understanding, receptive, resolving and honest.

If that is the case then the breeder needs to understand that a potential health issue is quite a large thing for a prospective owner to wrap their heads around and what she sees as the buyers being "duplicitous" could merely be them trying to be polite and not cause a scene to her face whilst privately freaking out at the situation. After processing it they have concluded that they do not wish to take on this pup and the breeder, irregardless of the purchasers actions, should be ethically bound to refund.

I do not believe that this breeder has any rights to retain the deposit when the whole issue is surrounding the possible ill health of a pup. Whether the potential purchasers are acting badly or not, it does not give the breeder the right to behave poorly in return. The breeder should , in my opinion, take the higher road, refund the money and wash her/his hands of the situation that is clearly angst driven on both sides and have done with it.

The breeder has acknowledge to the family that a puppy murmur can be very scary to anyone who hasn't had the experience of them, as with the breeder and her vet - this was acknowledge when providing the health certificate in the first place. Please note that the breeder conducted herself in a manner to communicate, calmly and receptively and in an understanding manner with the family and was indeed ready to not only work out details that suited both parties, but stated that she would rather not provide a puppy if there were doubts - it was the family insistance they wanted to take delivery that set the direction of the discussion.

If you had, as I have, viewed the correspondence between the parties you may have more understanding of why the off by the breeder to refund if the murmur continues is a very fair one. Frankly the harrassment she received and responded calmly to would have had other repercussions for the family if dealing with anyone else. Not only does she deserve compensation for what she has had to endure, but also a medal.

Personally I think the breeder needs to give the puppy purchasers their money back. Surely it would be less trouble to do so, then to fight over semantics. By not giving the refund they are only prolonging the stress they are going through. Easy Give refund, sell puppy on to someone else, no more harrassing emails, no more stress! Seems an easy solution to me!

edited to add. By selling puppy to someone else,I mean as long as the puppy is cleared of heart murmur or sold disclosing this fact.

Edited May 6, 2012 by I ♥ Bindi~Boo

[**Super_Dogs**]

I left put these conversations because they do not have the fact that the puppy has a 2/6 heart murmur, the buyer broke the sale due to this and the breeder is refusing a refund. Conversations leading up to this do not change this.

The buyer did not get the email until late in the week and having 2 children with many sports activities did not start thinking about the health check until a few days latter. They spoke to me I on the weekend and I did not know much about heart murmurs so I said I would ask my vet as I was already scheduled to see them Monday. My vet advised do not buy a puppy with a heart murmur as there is a risks it could leave t heart disease.

This day they also called the breeder. I recommended to her to ask to delay payment until the puppy is cleared. When the buyer asked this the breeders immediate response was she did not feel comfortable selling a puppy to someone who has concerns about the puppies health..............not a repines anyone would have expected. Te buyer did really wanted the puppy so did not push this matter further.

The next day she had a appointment with her vet for her other dogs vaccinations, so she thought she would take the health check from the breeder. The vet was concerned and said she would call the vet.

Can I add here in the original email from the breeder she offered to buyer to call her or the vet........so I don't know why that had to ask?

The breeder then called the buyer, Pretty much asking why her vet is calling. AT THIS TIME the buyer had not hear back from her vet so there was no change in her decision about taking the puppy.

Can I add, IMO the breeder sending an email to advise of the condition with no information about what she will do of the condition does not go away and also expecting payment the following week is just not good enough!!

So anyway after the buyer vey called the vet that did not health check and she could not say the decision wAs we cannot take a puppy with a heart murmur, They did not want to called and ask again about delaying payment as the breeder was no responsive to the suggestion in a previous conversation.

So I really don't think any of this changes the fact the puppy has a heart murmur, Innocent or not it is a heart murmur, The breeder wanted full payment before the puppy was cleared, and so them to take the puppy home, and she is refusing refund!

[Wags]

Did the emails begin after it was stated that they cannot have the pup but the deposit would also not be refunded?

It commenced with the tone of the severance of the purchase agreement.

[Wags]

I left put these conversations because they do not have the fact that the puppy has a 2/6 heart murmur, the buyer broke the sale due to this and the breeder is refusing a refund. Conversations leading up to this do not change this.

The buyer did not get the email until late in the week and having 2 children with many sports activities did not start thinking about the health check until a few days latter. They spoke to me I on the weekend and I did not know much about heart murmurs so I said I would ask my vet as I was already scheduled to see them Monday. My vet advised do not buy a puppy with a heart murmur as there is a risks it could leave t heart disease.

This day they also called the breeder. I recommended to her to ask to delay payment until the puppy is cleared. When the buyer asked this the breeders immediate response was she did not feel comfortable selling a puppy to someone who has concerns about the puppies health..............not a repines anyone would have expected. Te buyer did really wanted the puppy so did not push this matter further.

The next day she had a appointment with her vet for her other dogs vaccinations, so she thought she would take the health check from the breeder. The vet was concerned and said she would call the vet.

Can I add here in the original email from the breeder she offered to buyer to call her or the vet........so I don't know why that had to ask?

The breeder then called the buyer, Pretty much asking why her vet is calling. AT THIS TIME the buyer had not hear back from her vet so there was no change in her decision about taking the puppy.

Can I add, IMO the breeder sending an email to advise of the condition with no information about what she will do of the condition does not go away and also expecting payment the following week is just not good enough!!

So anyway after the buyer vey called the vet that did not health check and she could not say the decision wAs we cannot take a puppy with a heart murmur, They did not want to called and ask again about delaying payment as the breeder was no responsive to the suggestion in a previous conversation.

So I really don't think any of this changes the fact the puppy has a heart murmur, Innocent or not it is a heart murmur, The breeder wanted full payment before the puppy was cleared, and so them to take the puppy home, and she is refusing refund!

The presence of the puppy murmur is not in dispute, the liklihood of it being innocent is in dispute - the breeder is prepared to wait and see, and stand by her offer to refund if it does not disappear in a very short period of time - the family is not prepared to wait despite admitting that they are not eligible for a refund if the murmur does disappear. The actions of the family are also disputed.

[**Super_Dogs**]

I think this breeder needs to consider what she is saying before accusing someone of harassing.

When they requested a email her response was simply NO.

In emails All they have done is simply stating their consumer rights and that they are prepared to fight for them. I think most people would do the same.

She should not knowingly be selling puppies with health issues. This IMO is not ethical breeding.

The breeder has Slandered them in the emails in several occasions and when they asked "do not email me again" what did she do.....email back.

No one is forcing her to reply to emails sent.

[Pailin]

A family member put a large deposit (33%) for a puppy. At the puppy's 6 week health check last week the vet detected a 2/6 heart murmur. What makes it worse is the breeder wants final payment this week - 1 week before they pick up the puppy. They spoke to the breeder about waiting until the puppy has the all clear before they pay and take puppy but she did not agree to this.

They have therefore decided that they do not want to take the puppy and have requested a refund. The breeder has refused. Her terms and conditions hidden on The website in a place you would not look state the deposit is non-refundable or refundable at their discretion.

I cannot understand how she can refuse to refund when the puppy has a heart murmur. This is not what they put the deposit on!

Any advice of next steps they could take?

If you are going to ask for assistance, it's a good idea to give the actual facts. I know this breeder and have been privy to interaction between the two of you.

Firstly, the puppy murmur was diagnosed as 'probably innocent' - details you left out.

Secondly, The breeder asked you to contact her if you had any queries or qualms when she provided you with the health certificate.

When you contacted the breeder, three days later, you made if very clear that you wished to take delivery of the puppy and only wanted reassurance that the breeder would be there if the puppy's murmur had not completely disappeared.

You expressed to the breeder that you were completely happy with the discussion. You also told her you wish you had contacted her in the first place instead of worrying about it all weekend. You were asked by the breeder to contact her again if you had a dose of the doubts or needed any clarification. This was a very calm, chatty, receptive conversation, as witnessed by a third party, it so happens. At no time did the breeder insist or demand that you take the puppy on time, nor did she demand final payment. At no time did you raise any form of delay in taking the puppy, in fact you insisted that you wanted to take delivery of the puppy.

Two days after this, the breeder was advised by her vet that your vet had contacted her. You did not afford the breeder any form of common decency of contacting her, not even to advise that you still had some doubts and were intending to have your vet contact mine. The breeder readily gave her vet permission to contact yours.

That evening, the breeder contacted you again, advising that she had been advised in regard to the vet contact and asking whether you had heard back from your vet, whether you still had any doubts or wished to discuss anything with her. You insisted no, that the vet contact was only as a result of a casual conversation with your vet while having your other dog innoculated. You said you had not yet heard back and had forgotten all about it. You insisted that you were fine with everything and all was well.

The next day, you sent an email severing the purchase agreement and demanded your refund back.

The breeder - again in a state of confusion about your duplicity, contacted her vet and ascertained that she had come out of surgery to phone your vet as as your vet was busy, she left a message with the receptionist advising what she had noted on the health certificate and also adding that she was 90% sure that the puppy murmur would disappear within the 12 weeks.

It was at this point that the breeder replyed to your email exercising her right to retain the deposit by way of compensation. The terms and conditions are CLEARLY indicated on the breeder's website.

In an effort to resolve the matter, the breeder has also made extremely reasonable efforts to resolve the matter of the refund while you barraged her with harrassing emails, changing tack with nearly every email and threatening her in the process.

Frankly, I believe this breeder is well within her rights to retain the deposit when the facts are known. She has been communicative, understanding, receptive, resolving and honest.

If that is the case then the breeder needs to understand that a potential health issue is quite a large thing for a prospective owner to wrap their heads around and what she sees as the buyers being "duplicitous" could merely be them trying to be polite and not cause a scene to her face whilst privately freaking out at the situation. After processing it they have concluded that they do not wish to take on this pup and the breeder, irregardless of the purchasers actions, should be ethically bound to refund.

I do not believe that this breeder has any rights to retain the deposit when the whole issue is surrounding the possible ill health of a pup. Whether the potential purchasers are acting badly or not, it does not give the breeder the right to behave poorly in return. The breeder should , in my opinion, take the higher road, refund the money and wash her/his hands of the situation that is clearly angst driven on both sides and have done with it.

The breeder has acknowledge to the family that a puppy murmur can be very scary to anyone who hasn't had the experience of them, as with the breeder and her vet - this was acknowledge when providing the health certificate in the first place. Please note that the breeder conducted herself in a manner to communicate, calmly and receptively and in an understanding manner with the family and was indeed ready to not only work out details that suited both parties, but stated that she would rather not provide a puppy if there were doubts - it was the family insistance they wanted to take delivery that set the direction of the discussion.

If you had, as I have, viewed the correspondence between the parties you may have more understanding of why the off by the breeder to refund if the murmur continues is a very fair one. Frankly the harrassment she received and responded calmly to would have had other repercussions for the family if dealing with anyone else. Not only does she deserve compensation for what she has had to endure, but also a medal.

I disagree. I have not read the communication, no, but the breeder refusing to complete the purchase OR refund the deposit is reminiscent of the actions one would expect from a BYB or puppy farmers and is not at all becoming, or reflecting well on, the community of Registered Breeders. If the breeder has handled this so diplomatically then I fail to see why they should stop doing so now. Give them back their money and be thankful to have avoided the near miss of having one of their pups in a home that they clearly disapprove of.

Without knowing what breed of puppy we are talking about, going on a guesstimate price tag of say $1500, 33% of that is nearly $500! The breeder cannot honestly think that they deserve $500 for a few "harassing" emails! How ludicrous!

[**Super_Dogs**]

Did the emails begin after it was stated that they cannot have the pup but the deposit would also not be refunded?

No. During the emails the breeder advised of this.

[**Super_Dogs**]

The presence of the puppy murmur is not in dispute, the liklihood of it being innocent is in dispute - the breeder is prepared to wait and see, and stand by her offer to refund if it does not disappear in a very short period of time - the family is not prepared to wait despite admitting that they are not eligible for a refund if the murmur does disappear. The actions of the family are also disputed.

This is untrue. They do they they are entitle to a refund regardless of the outcome in 4 weeks time.

What the breeder is offering is wrong. They should not have to wait to see if it clears, especially when the breeder has said they cannot have the puppy if it is clear.

The breeder wanted full payment for the pup Friday (1 week before pick up which IMO is weird!).

They did not want to pay for a pup no cleared. So the condition needs to be judged on how it stand today.....not what might happen.

Jed provide a good example, you don't pay a deposit on a car and when you do to make full payment the tell you it is not working, But that is ok it should come good.

Edited May 6, 2012 by buddy1

[**Super_Dogs**]

Why would a breeder need $500 compensation. What for? She has the pup for sale again which I am very sure she will be asking the full amount.

[dancinbcs]

I cannot believe any vet would say any heart murmur is "probably innocent" and has a 90% chance of resolving. How the hell would they know without very expensive specialist testing? Yes, many heart murmurs do resolve but a lot get worse and there is absolutely no way of knowing which it is unless it does resolve or they have testing done. Any breeder who would allow a heart murmur puppy to leave their care before the murmur resolves has rocks in their head. They are inviting a law suit to pay for thousands in testing and surgery.

No matter what went on between these parties the breeder is still at fault for expecting the buyer to to take a puppy with an unresolved heart murmur. They should have offered a refund of the deposit at any time the buyer wanted out and kept the puppy until the murmur resolves or they make a decision for surgery or euthanasia.

Now they have a dispute and do not want the puppy to go to these people anyway the best way out is to refund the deposit, cut their losses and learn a valuable lesson to never sell a puppy with an evident heart murmur.

[Wags]

The breeder has just advised me that while she agrees with the facts I have posted today, as the family has threatened legal action, she feels that this forum is just another means of manipulation and harrassment for the family and she would prefer that any clarification of any points be done with private contact and with identification of the writer. She further wishes me to state that she is willing to resolve this issue in a calm, receptive and fair manner at any time, but will not be receptive to harrassing or bullying, or manipulative tactics.

[**Super_Dogs**]

I cannot believe any vet would say any heart murmur is "probably innocent" and has a 90% chance of resolving. How the hell would they know without very expensive specialist testing? .

The vet wrote on the health check that is probably innocent. The breeder is the one telling the buyers that this is normal for 6-8 week old puppies and will resolve.

When the buys vet spoke to the breeders vet, let just say she was no so confident.

[Troy]

Closing topic. This needs to be settled in private and not on a public forum.