Advice Needed

[Jed]

Issy, that is a good breeder. No one can guarantee much with an animal. And often these problems aren't hereditary, they are just bad luck. Bad stuff happens sometimes, it is what the breeder does then which differentiates.

[Issy]

Jed, yes of course, I didn't mean to put her in a bad light. She did all she could do. My reply was more about the fact that a heart murmur can be in fact very dangerous and one should not take it lightly. I went with my heart and not my head and had a bad experience.

That being said though, at the time I did research it quite a bit and it seemed that some people got lucky with some puppies living until the age of ten or so...

[tdierikx]

What actually worries me most is the breeder's admission that she had similar heart issues with at least one pup from another litter - and was completely happy to sell a pup with a grade 3 murmur to a "pet home"...

Are there any breeds in which it is "common" for 6 week old pups to have a gradable murmur? I'm not terribly au fait with this sort of thing, but would be very leery of purchasing a young pup with such a problem - regardless of the breeder assuring me that it would "clear up" by itself.

T.

[Christina]

Office of Fair Trading/Consumer Affairs will be the quickest action. Pups are classed as goods by law. Get them to have a chat to them first so they know their rights & then relay this back to the breeder with info on what action will be taken if deposit is not returned.

Its most unreasonable not to return deposit under this circumstance.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Finally the breeder is back peddeling and now says she is willing to negotaiate.

However she is still insistent that it is not hereditary (which I am baffled to know how can disprove this!!) and that the puppy is not defective as the heart murmur will do. She is saying that she would not sell the puppy to someone who belives it is defective.

I think it is pretty black and white - the puppy currently has a heart murmur, so it has health issues!!! The breeder does not have a leg to stand on as she emailed them a copy of the vet health check which has the heart murmur noted.

Unfortunetly though, there is not much to negotiate as even is the puppy's health is clear they do not want a puppy from this breeder and they just can trust her.

So fingers crosses this can be resolved without having to go to the office of fair trading. However if it is not sorted by today, this is their next step.

The whole thing really makes me angry. As a breeder myself I want people to buy healthly sound dogs from registered breeders. It is breeders like this that drive people to buy from BYB!!!

[ellz]

Really at the end of the day it doesn't matter whether it is hereditary or not. It is there. Therefore at this stage, the puppy is defective and therefore not fit for sale under "normal" circumstances.

Heart murmurs are not uncommon in puppies BUT a reputable and responsible breeder would either keep the puppy themselves until either a clearance is given or the murmur is confirmed as being permanent and then THEY can deal with it accordingly, or, if not in a position to keep the puppy would place it in a suitable home (probably at little or no cost) with the promise of support with regards to medical expenses and ongoing assistance.

Personally, although I hate conflict and don't judge anybody else who is like me in that regard, I would actually be "manning" up and saying that negotiation is NOT acceptable and that unless the deposit is refunded (and 33% is a hefty deposit by anybody's standards), then further action WILL be taken. And immediately follow through with a call to Fair Trading.

Unfortunately, some breeders will bluff and bluster and most puppy people feel so intimidated that they back down and never get what they are entitled to by law.

[oakway]

Finally the breeder is back peddeling and now says she is willing to negotaiate.

However she is still insistent that it is not hereditary (which I am baffled to know how can disprove this!!) and that the puppy is not defective as the heart murmur will do. She is saying that she would not sell the puppy to someone who belives it is defective.

I think it is pretty black and white - the puppy currently has a heart murmur, so it has health issues!!! The breeder does not have a leg to stand on as she emailed them a copy of the vet health check which has the heart murmur noted.

Unfortunetly though, there is not much to negotiate as even is the puppy's health is clear they do not want a puppy from this breeder and they just can trust her.

So fingers crosses this can be resolved without having to go to the office of fair trading. However if it is not sorted by today, this is their next step.

The whole thing really makes me angry. As a breeder myself I want people to buy healthly sound dogs from registered breeders. It is breeders like this that drive people to buy from BYB!!!

Exactly!!!!!

With a bad experience like this purchasers tend to tar us with the same brush.

But in the breeders favour, they were at least up front over the condition and we must be fair in our appraisal of others.

After that, for me, it was all down hill.

[LizT]

I would be one of the first to say that this may just go away with time, but the first thing you do is offer back the deposit.

Then advise the purchasers that you will contact them if they still want to be advised if the condition clears.

I personally would be asking the purchasers to speak to my vet if they were still interested and be advised by the vet.

By with-holding the deposit it gives honest caring breeders a bad name and that reflects on all of us.

I agree Oakway, this may just be an innocent murmur, that will most likely be gone at 12 weeks and it is not uncommon.

That said, if it were my pup, I'd be refunding the deposit and awaiting the 12 weeks to decide on the future of the pup.

I can't think of any reason why I would make a deposit "non refundable" if there was a potential health issue.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Another update.

The breeder has agreed to refund ONLY if after th 8 week and 12 week health check the murmur is still present. WHAT!!!!

Would you believe the breeder also told them "you are not the right home for the puppy because you cannot see the situation for what it is and see the puppy as defective". Funny that because it is defective!!

Clearly she does not understand consumer rights as she gueninely believes she is entitled to claim the whole of the refund.

Time to call Fair Trading. I will post an update to what they say about this.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Finally the breeder is back peddeling and now says she is willing to negotaiate.

However she is still insistent that it is not hereditary (which I am baffled to know how can disprove this!!) and that the puppy is not defective as the heart murmur will do. She is saying that she would not sell the puppy to someone who belives it is defective.

I think it is pretty black and white - the puppy currently has a heart murmur, so it has health issues!!! The breeder does not have a leg to stand on as she emailed them a copy of the vet health check which has the heart murmur noted.

Unfortunetly though, there is not much to negotiate as even is the puppy's health is clear they do not want a puppy from this breeder and they just can trust her.

So fingers crosses this can be resolved without having to go to the office of fair trading. However if it is not sorted by today, this is their next step.

The whole thing really makes me angry. As a breeder myself I want people to buy healthly sound dogs from registered breeders. It is breeders like this that drive people to buy from BYB!!!

Exactly!!!!!

With a bad experience like this purchasers tend to tar us with the same brush.

But in the breeders favour, they were at least up front over the condition and we must be fair in our appraisal of others.After that, for me, it was all down hill.

You know I did agree with this originally. But now I think she had done this so there is recourse on her as the buyer purchasing the puppy knowing it has this condition.

IMO this breeder has become an 'expert' as selling defective puppies.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Really at the end of the day it doesn't matter whether it is hereditary or not. It is there. Therefore at this stage, the puppy is defective and therefore not fit for sale under "normal" circumstances.

Heart murmurs are not uncommon in puppies BUT a reputable and responsible breeder would either keep the puppy themselves until either a clearance is given or the murmur is confirmed as being permanent and then THEY can deal with it accordingly, or, if not in a position to keep the puppy would place it in a suitable home (probably at little or no cost) with the promise of support with regards to medical expenses and ongoing assistance.

Personally, although I hate conflict and don't judge anybody else who is like me in that regard, I would actually be "manning" up and saying that negotiation is NOT acceptable and that unless the deposit is refunded (and 33% is a hefty deposit by anybody's standards), then further action WILL be taken. And immediately follow through with a call to Fair Trading.

Unfortunately, some breeders will bluff and bluster and most puppy people feel so intimidated that they back down and never get what they are entitled to by law.

Yes, yes, yes and yes!!

While heart murmurs may be common is some breeds they are certainly not 'normal'. This breeder has created a document and the last sentence says heart murmurs in 6-8 week old puppies are normal.

[Whippetsmum]

Department of Fair Trading is very clear. If there is a major fault on a product, you are entitled to a refund or replacement at the purchasers discretion. A minor fault can be repaired at the discretion of the seller or manufacturer. No amount of fine print is able to undermine a consumers basic rights.

The question is, are breeders held accountable like other "manufacturers" or "retailers"?

BTW, Can you can fix a heart murmer?

[❤LovesPoodles❤]

Department of Fair Trading is very clear. If there is a major fault on a product, you are entitled to a refund or replacement at the purchasers discretion. A minor fault can be repaired at the discretion of the seller or manufacturer. No amount of fine print is able to undermine a consumers basic rights.

The question is, are breeders held accountable like other "manufacturers" or "retailers"?

BTW, Can you can fix a heart murmer?

Depends what the cause of the murmur is. In my dogs case it could be fixed and cost $5000 for 2kg toy poodle.

[**Super_Dogs**]

So they called the office of fair trading today. Because the breeder is no a registered business there is nothing they can do

However they can take it in front of a judge for just $30 (something around this can't remember exact amount). So they are going to do it. She should not get away with this! It is just wrong.

[Jed]

So they called the office of fair trading today. Because the breeder is no a registered business there is nothing they can do

However they can take it in front of a judge for just $30 (something around this can't remember exact amount). So they are going to do it. She should not get away with this! It is just wrong.

That is probably technically correct, but you can go to the magistrate's court, and ask for assistance to fill out the correct form. You say what you want on the form, and the breeder will be served with a notice to front up. She will probably pay up then. If not, the matter will go the mediation, and I think you have a good case. It costs more than $30,but it is under $100.

I have no idea what is wrong with fair trading. Maybe they are telling you THEY wont do it themselves,and you will have to.

And dogs are treated as goods under fair trading, and the same rules apply.

Good luck!!

People like this give decent and ethical breeders a bad name, and the buggers increase every year, they are prolific.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Thanks for your advice Jed.

Just to clarify the office of fair trading said they cannot make her as she does not have a registered business. They said all they could do is put pressure on her. Maybe this is also worth a shot!

[Allerzeit]

However they can take it in front of a judge for just $30 (something around this can't remember exact amount). So they are going to do it. She should not get away with this! It is just wrong.

Good! I'm glad they are going to pursue it in whatever way they are able to I hope they are able to get their deposit back with minimal fuss and find a trustworthy, ethical breeder. I sincerely hope they aren't put off of all breeders because of this one's actions.

People like this give decent and ethical breeders a bad name, and the buggers increase every year, they are prolific.

Too right, Jed!

[**Super_Dogs**]

The breeder has still not budged on her offers. She says she will wait until the 12 week check and if the puppy still has a murmur she will refund the deposit.

She cannot understand that because she expected full payment yesterday, the murmur should be judged on what it is now, not in 4 weeks time. Also if the puppy is healthy she keeps the puppy and their deposit.

They have told her if this is the case they should have the option to buy the puppy if it gets the all clear. The breeder has said she will not sell them the puppy. However in her opinion the fact that she won't sell It to them does not apply as they broke the contract of sale when they asked for the deposit back because they did not want to buy the puppy with a health issue.

You known what is worse........the puppy is on DOL and her website for sale.

The breeder has called my sister on law 2 faced. When my sister in law called the breeder after she received the health check form stating the murmur she asked if they could delay final payment until the puppy was cleared. The breeders response was "I don't know if ti want to sell my puppy to someone who thinks the puppy is not healthy". This took my sister in law by surprise, as it would anyone, So she said that she is not saying she does not want it.

[Allerzeit]

So, if the murmur is still there at 12 weeks she will refund, but if the murmur is gone she will keep the deposit, but still not sell them the puppy???

Edited cause I mucked up an emoticon code :insert rolly eyed man directed at myself:

Edited May 5, 2012 by Allerzeit

[Allerzeit]

I was just thinking - can the breeder even legally do that (refuse to sell them the pup, but keep the deposit)?

Isn't one of the things often mentioned as a downside to taking deposits is that, as a breeder, if you change your mind on a buyer it's too bad if you've taken a deposit from them, as you are still legally obliged to sell them a pup?