Dog That Lack's Confidence?

[Pretty Miss Emma]

What happens if you have Sonny inside and leave Stella outside? I'm just wondering if that is a good way to start increasing the separation/distance? (I don't know, I'm just really thinking out loud) Kenzie used to jump on the outdoor table and howl like a wolf for the first 5 minutes when I would take Em for a walk but then she'd settle. But I taught her from day 1 that she would spend time in the backyard without Em - when I was home Em would be inside for a bit and Kenz out in the yard and then they'd swap, but they'd also have some together time. Eventually she got used to it!

Do you leave her with something to keep her occupied? Maybe short stints outside with something great to keep her busy and build up to longer times and actually taking Sonny out for a walk? How is she if she is inside when you take him out? maybe that is the first step, her being inside when she's on her own and working up to being outside.

Like I said really this is just me thinking out loud, but could be worth a try?

[Erny]

Example tip/suggestion :

Get OH to walk Stella. You walk Sonny. Separately. OH gets home with Stella first (eg 5 minutes early).

How does that work?

The point is that Stella doesn't stay back watching you go.

What's happening with the trainer/behaviourist you saw? Is she giving ongoing training advice and assistance?

[BC Crazy]

Example tip/suggestion :

Get OH to walk Stella. You walk Sonny. Separately. OH gets home with Stella first (eg 5 minutes early).

I3How does that work?

The point is that Stella doesn't stay back watching you go.

What's happening with the trainer/behaviourist you saw? Is she giving ongoing training advice and assistance?

Hi erny, good thinking. I think this is a good start. I just thought if I took Sonny out for a short time it wouldn't be a problem. Geez I couldn't have been more wrong. Stella got herself in such a state & I ended up almost in tears. Will give this a try

I had a 2 hour consultation with a behaviourist & I emailed her with an update on whats been going on. Next visit, when I can afford it, 1 hour visit.

Thanks for your imput erny. I appreciate it. I am upset with this whole Stella thing as I was unaware that I was suppose to keep her away from Sonny a lot from when she first arrived home. I thought that is was all going well cause they were getting along so wonderfully well. It never accured to me that she was actually leaning on him & not maturing to her full potenional. So I am pretty disappointed & blamming myself big time at the moment.

[BC Crazy]

What happens if you have Sonny inside and leave Stella outside? I'm just wondering if that is a good way to start increasing the separation/distance? (I don't know, I'm just really thinking out loud) Kenzie used to jump on the outdoor table and howl like a wolf for the first 5 minutes when I would take Em for a walk but then she'd settle. But I taught her from day 1 that she would spend time in the backyard without Em - when I was home Em would be inside for a bit and Kenz out in the yard and then they'd swap, but they'd also have some together time. Eventually she got used to it!

Do you leave her with something to keep her occupied? Maybe short stints outside with something great to keep her busy and build up to longer times and actually taking Sonny out for a walk? How is she if she is inside when you take him out? maybe that is the first step, her being inside when she's on her own and working up to being outside.

Like I said really this is just me thinking out loud, but could be worth a try?

Hi PME,

I am very upset at the situation with my girl as it is my fault for not separating her from him earlier, I just didn't know .

Anyway I think I will start to bring them inside on their own, good thinking just for a short amount of time to start with.

Its funny cause sometimes when you are in a situation you can't see any solutions or your not able to see outside of the upsetting scene.

As for the howling on the table, hmm yes we had the big howling show on. I could hear Stella 3 blocks away

Thanks for your ideas & help PME once again.

Edited May 7, 2012 by BC Crazy

[ness]

BC Crazy - don't beat yourself up over it. I can't take mine our separately because my 11.5 year old will jump the fence to come and find us. We all make mistakes :).

[BC Crazy]

BC Crazy - don't beat yourself up over it. I can't take mine our separately because my 11.5 year old will jump the fence to come and find us. We all make mistakes :).

Oh thanks ness. Can't help it as my dear girl was/is so stressed on her own. Fancy your one will jump over fences to find you. They are amazing sometimes aren't they? Loved the utube clip ness

Such a talented girl. Good luck Thursday. Be in touch.

Edited May 7, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Have totaly been through the "I ruined my dog" moments!!! I don't know why but I've also now just realised she is who she is and I did what I did - there are things I'll do differently next time, but for now such is life!

While I would do anything to have my Emma back and I would have done anything for her to not be sick when she was, in some ways it taught Kenzie to have some independence because there was no other choice - but that was just circumstance had it not happened things would be very different in this house.

Like with everything in life hindsight is wonderful, but we learn from our experiences and I sort of figure for now enjoy what you have and work with what you have - we don't get enough time with with them as it is so don't beat yourself up over it. You've identified a problem and you're trying to work on it, so far that's a lot more than many dogs get in their life. You're doing a good job!

[BC Crazy]

Glad I'm not the only one that has had the 'Iv'e ruined my dog moment' PME. It feels terrible especially when I try so hard with them to 'get it right'.

But we are onto it now & we are going to work through it. Spoke with our behaviourist & she seems to think that Stella's temp. is & always has been needy / edgy.

Not something that I have caused but just her nature. However letting her be with Sonny probably more than about 1 hour per day has enabled her to lean on

on him & this has only emphasized her neediness. Now to gradually separate them I have to slow the process down even more than first thought as she doesn't have much in the

way of coping skills. Hence the performance she puts on when Sonny is "gone". Going to start with 5 mins Sonny inside, Stella outside & visa versa.( You were on the right track )

Gradually increasing the time. Baby steps for now. Thanks for your vote of confidence PME :)

Edited May 7, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Glad I'm not the only one that has had the 'Iv'e ruined my dog moment' PME. It feels terrible especially when I try so hard with them to 'get it right'.

But we are onto it now & we are going to work through it. Spoke with our behaviourist & she seems to think that Stella's temp. is & always has been needy / edgy.

Not something that I have caused but just her nature. However letting her be with Sonny probably more than about 1 hour per day has enabled her to lean on

on him & this has only emphasized her neediness. Now to gradually separate them I have to slow the process down even more than first thought as she doesn't have much in the

way of coping skills. Hence the performance she puts on when Sonny is "gone". Going to start with 5 mins Sonny inside, Stella outside & visa versa.( You were on the right track )

Gradually increasing the time. Baby steps for now. Thanks for your vote of confidence PME :)

[Erny]

But we are onto it now & we are going to work through it. Spoke with our behaviourist & she seems to think that Stella's temp. is & always has been needy / edgy.

Not suggesting I think this is the case (I couldn't, as I've not met the dog) and the edginess you speak of could be a result of genetics and earlier environment (pre-rescue) but browse the website for medical reasons where this might be possible. Just one example (emphasis on "example") is thyroid dysfunction and in dogs that would be hypothyroidism. Early onset of hypothyroidism can represent itself as similar to "hyper" and doesn't necessary show up the common typical clinical signs until the disorder has progressed. I'm not suggesting you panic about things potentially being medical, but when a dog is not one that finds the ability to relax very much and is edgy especially when things oughtn't be, I do turn my mind to medically based possibilities and research them a little.

Not something that I have caused but just her nature. However letting her be with Sonny probably more than about 1 hour per day has enabled her to lean on on him & this has only emphasized her neediness.

Just for clarification sake - are you saying that Sonny and Stella have only been together for a bit more than an hour per day? If that's the case, I would suggest that the remaining 23 hours should have been enough for Stella to learn independence. But perhaps I've misunderstood.

[BC Crazy]

But we are onto it now & we are going to work through it. Spoke with our behaviourist & she seems to think that Stella's temp. is & always has been needy / edgy.

Not suggesting I think this is the case (I couldn't, as I've not met the dog) and the edginess you speak of could be a result of genetics and earlier environment (pre-rescue) but browse the website for medical reasons where this might be possible. Just one example (emphasis on "example") is thyroid dysfunction and in dogs that would be hypothyroidism. Early onset of hypothyroidism can represent itself as similar to "hyper" and doesn't necessary show up the common typical clinical signs until the disorder has progressed. I'm not suggesting you panic about things potentially being medical, but when a dog is not one that finds the ability to relax very much and is edgy especially when things oughtn't be, I do turn my mind to medically based possibilities and research them a little.

Not something that I have caused but just her nature. However letting her be with Sonny probably more than about 1 hour per day has enabled her to lean on on him & this has only emphasized her neediness.

Just for clarification sake - are you saying that Sonny and Stella have only been together for a bit more than an hour per day? If that's the case, I would suggest that the remaining 23 hours should have been enough for Stella to learn independence. But perhaps I've misunderstood.

No Erny, they have been together all the time but my behaviourist said I should have only let them be together for 1/2 to 1 hour per day, the rest of the time she should have spent with me & on her own only wish I would have known. She also said the same as you regarding the edginess, she thinks it's genetic. :)

[Tassie]

I like Erny's suggestion about the two humans walking and going slightly separately.

Reading your description of Stella's reaction when you take Sonny out, I must admit, the first thought that came to me was 'tanty' - especially as she's quite happy to go with you and leave him behind. :)

As ness said, you can get this sort of behaviour in dogs which anyone would describe as completely confident. My two will each do it if they think they are left behind while the other gets to do something really rewarding. they do it when I take one out to do some tracking training (or competition) and leave the other one in the car - Kirra (10) screams blue murder, and Rory (3.5) howls and barks. It usually lasts for quite a few minutes - but by the time I get back, the one in the car is fine. Rory used to do it when I would do agility runs with Kirra - had to have a babysitter for him - now he gets that he just has to wait quietly in his trolley. Kirra screams if I leave her in the car and she thinks Rory is going to do some agiity - but she couldn't care less if he's just going to do obedience or showing - she's not into those :D

And hey - certainly don't beat yourself up - we do what we think is best at the time, and what we can. And even if we make mistakes, our dogs are still loved and comfortably housed.

Thinking about the markers - I use 'Yes' - but I sometime use a clicker - especially if I'm playing round with new behaviours just for fun - tricks etc. - so I wonder if Stella would benefit from you having a play with the clicker as a marker sometimes. The nice thing about it - you can't hurt the dog - and if you start using it for some free shaping, or trick training, it won't stuff up anything else. It could be a special thing that only you and Stella do, not you and Sonny.

ET fix typo

Edited May 8, 2012 by Tassie

[Erny]

She also said the same as you regarding the edginess, she thinks it's genetic. :)

And I might have missed if this has been told in a post throughout the thread, but check diet and avoid anything corn based.

[BC Crazy]

She also said the same as you regarding the edginess, she thinks it's genetic. :)

And I might have missed if this has been told in a post throughout the thread, but check diet and avoid anything corn based.

Interesting Erny,

Both of mine are on grain-free Taste of the Wild, salmon variety & 1/2 chic frame. Sonny is grain allergic. :)

Edited May 10, 2012 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

Tassie,

Yes she does seem like she is carrying on like a spoilt brat & believe me she screams like one too :laugh: Talk about perform. Very glad to hear that their are quite a few of us with performers.

Stella certainly didn't seem worried about leaving Sonny behind. I thought is was going to be a difficult walk as she was so upset moments earlier but she only looked back once then I just couldn't fault her & she seemed relaxed,

straight after one of her biggest & loudest 'moments' yet.

I do use a "yes" marker with her & when she was younger I used a clicker which she actually loved & responded to well but I was fumbling around like an idiot with it. Just too many things in my hands I think. Might give it another

go. :)

[ness]

Kenz will shut down if walked by herself yet is happy to train by herself - go work that one out . Having said that she will shut down when I take them both out as well for a walk so its not that different.

[kiesha09]

Agreed don't beat yourself up on not seperating them enough... I didn't either and have the same problem and my girl will scream blue murder if I take my boy out without her. We live and learn and won't make the same mistake next time.

When I do training with my boy it's always in another room with the door shut so she can't see us. Well that was until she learned to open the door

[Vickie]

Hi BC Crazy,

Agree with the others, don't beat yourself up. The main thing is that you are aware of a problem & are taking steps to fix it

Regarding her "edginess", I honestly don't think this needs to postpone any goals you have with her. If you want to do agility, find a trainer who is focussed on training with motivation/drive rather than than one focussed on technicalities or a club environment. If you train her right, her edginess need not be a factor. I would view training as a way to help any temperament issues rather than delay training because of them.

Re markers, I feel there can be more to markers than what has been suggested in this topic. There is a lot more to training well with markers than saying yes and rewarding. If you train them well, your dog will turn itself inside out to work at the word "ready" and will be quivering in anticipation of the word "yes".

Look for possibilities, rather than limitations. Anything is possible

Hope this makes sense

Edited May 8, 2012 by Vickie

[Erny]

Good post, Vickie. I love the positiveness of it. I agree. Give the dog an outlet for its nervous energy.

[BorderBo]

Hi BC Crazy

I can really relate to your issues with Stella. I have a rescue BC x Kelpie with decent drive whom I struggled to cope with just this time last year. Bo was a very different dog to what I had been used to. He was high energy (still is) but it was manic energy and he was also very reactive to his environment, particularly dogs. I worked myself into quite a state over several months and eventually decided to send him back to rescue after trying several trainers and getting nowhere fast - my coping mechanism failed me!

Long story short, I re-adopted him (as my coping mechanism was failing me without him!), worked with a good behaviourist and then began training agility with Vickie who has posted on this thread :)

Agility has given Bo a positive and challenging outlet for his drive - he simply adores it and displays a good work ethic and motivation to work for me these days. Our bond has strengthened no end and my confidence in handling him has soared as a result of this training! If you are open to the idea, having a couple of agility lessons to trial your interest (Stella's too) could be well worth your consideration - it could be just the outlet that Stella needs. It's also ALOT of fun and you'll meet some really nice people :)

Bo was not(probably still isn't) the type of dog that could have been trained the foundation work within a group of other dogs and it sounds like Stella may be better suited to one-on-one training to begin with too. I can highly recommend Vickie Training a novice handler AND dog is not an easy gig and I'd say Bo and I have been hard work at times! :) Bo has blossomed through this training - he is a joy to be with and train. He is a very contented and balanced boy these days.

If I can provide you with any support or further information, please do not hesitate to PM me.

Despite all the stress you are under, try and keep the faith - I feel confident you and Stella will land on your feet just like Bo and I have :)

Vicki

Edited May 8, 2012 by BorderBo