Dog That Lack's Confidence?

[Canine Coach]

some dogs are naturally frustrated. Why not guide the dog to help him reach the final goal? Some animals find free shaping more an annoyance then anything else (my bitch walked off on me in disgust lol) As for Barkley carrying on, give him either a non reward marker or command him to be quiet. Dogs still need to learn what is unacceptable and what is not. Conversely make your end goal progression extremely linear in its shaping and dont try and change the parameters in too big a leap.

You do need to separate Stella, she's a dog that needs a crutch and it's him. But you need to transfer her attention onto you. Do some focus exercises, something where you show her what to do, small easy goals and reward often. You dont need to be hyperactive yourself, just mark her behavior with a YES and give her a treat. Easier then a clicker, I know it's just another thing to hold in your hand. Start in the front yard at least, then move onto the street, you can do this a few times a day. Every time she looks up at your face 'YES! Oh GOOD GIRL!' and when she's really intently watching you or watches you over something 'scary' is when the jackpot treat will come. Confidence comes slowly, the herding breeds can be shockers about lacking it.

I would also be looking at Stellas 'shut down' behavior. Is it a true, paralysing emotional shutdown or just a behavior she has learned that is blocking her progress. To her it may be the logical progression in the pattern, get excited, exhibit this behavior. Sometimes they just need to be stood up, dust off the BS and keep working, otherwise you always hit that brick wall as soon as the dog hits a certain stimulation level.

I usually find that I agree with all or almost all Nekhbet advises

Just adding my 2 cents ...... In my own experience, to build confidence while training, set it up and stage manage it at a level (s) so that the dogs WINS. In other words, "CATCH THE DOG DOING SOMETHING RIGHT, consistently.

Then act deliriously happy and reward with praise, pats, toys, food, or whatever makes your dog feel appreciated and clever etc This really truly builds confidence The dog feels clever and begins to believe that it can DO things to make you happy enough to reward it and make it feel special.

However it must be done at the dog's pace slowly over time

One can test periodically, to see when the dog is ready to move on to a bigger challenge and then drop back quickly to a much easier exercise to bring the dog's spirits back up

Think of how YOU feel when you are learning something from someone and they praise the heck out of every correct response, and ignore the wrong responses OR only give some correction AFTER marking and telling you all the GOOD things that you did well. Then think about the type of teacher that makes things a bit too difficult and has to criticize you

Even the gentlest of criticism, causes confidence to drop, especialy if praise is not given many times prior.

My 1st dog was so soft and wanted to be right/clever so badly, that I had to control my slightest facial expressions if she blew an exercise in training. I dared not even look mildly disappointed She would shut down and look miserable However, when she suceeded she was delirious with joy

This dog ended up with many titles in 2 countries but I never ever used compulsion of any kind and before I trained I planned how to make her suceed/feel good about what we were going to do

[BC Crazy]

some dogs are naturally frustrated. Why not guide the dog to help him reach the final goal? Some animals find free shaping more an annoyance then anything else (my bitch walked off on me in disgust lol) As for Barkley carrying on, give him either a non reward marker or command him to be quiet. Dogs still need to learn what is unacceptable and what is not. Conversely make your end goal progression extremely linear in its shaping and dont try and change the parameters in too big a leap.

You do need to separate Stella, she's a dog that needs a crutch and it's him. But you need to transfer her attention onto you. Do some focus exercises, something where you show her what to do, small easy goals and reward often. You dont need to be hyperactive yourself, just mark her behavior with a YES and give her a treat. Easier then a clicker, I know it's just another thing to hold in your hand. Start in the front yard at least, then move onto the street, you can do this a few times a day. Every time she looks up at your face 'YES! Oh GOOD GIRL!' and when she's really intently watching you or watches you over something 'scary' is when the jackpot treat will come. Confidence comes slowly, the herding breeds can be shockers about lacking it.

I would also be looking at Stellas 'shut down' behavior. Is it a true, paralysing emotional shutdown or just a behavior she has learned that is blocking her progress. To her it may be the logical progression in the pattern, get excited, exhibit this behavior. Sometimes they just need to be stood up, dust off the BS and keep working, otherwise you always hit that brick wall as soon as the dog hits a certain stimulation level.

I usually find that I agree with all or almost all Nekhbet advises

Just adding my 2 cents ...... In my own experience, to build confidence while training, set it up and stage manage it at a level (s) so that the dogs WINS. In other words, "CATCH THE DOG DOING SOMETHING RIGHT, consistently.

Then act deliriously happy and reward with praise, pats, toys, food, or whatever makes your dog feel appreciated and clever etc This really truly builds confidence The dog feels clever and begins to believe that it can DO things to make you happy enough to reward it and make it feel special.

However it must be done at the dog's pace slowly over time

One can test periodically, to see when the dog is ready to move on to a bigger challenge and then drop back quickly to a much easier exercise to bring the dog's spirits back up

Think of how YOU feel when you are learning something from someone and they praise the heck out of every correct response, and ignore the wrong responses OR only give some correction AFTER marking and telling you all the GOOD things that you did well. Then think about the type of teacher that makes things a bit too difficult and has to criticize you

Even the gentlest of criticism, causes confidence to drop, especialy if praise is not given many times prior.

My 1st dog was so soft and wanted to be right/clever so badly, that I had to control my slightest facial expressions if she blew an exercise in training. I dared not even look mildly disappointed She would shut down and look miserable However, when she suceeded she was delirious with joy

This dog ended up with many titles in 2 countries but I never ever used compulsion of any kind and before I trained I planned how to make her suceed/feel good about what we were going to do

That is Stella all over Canine Coach. She is very soft & extremely sensitive to pretty much everything. Someone has only got to hear a raised voice near by & she has jumped to her feet, eye's darting everywhere, like 'what going

on'. She picks up on the slightest things when it comes to me as well. So I am very careful with direction to her & praise, praise & more praise when she has done the slightest thing well. She tries very hard to get it right &

hates to get it wrong but when she does I don't make a big deal of it , just usually manually correct her & then more praise or perhaps a game of tug or something fun. She is also very perceptive to my facial expression as well,

even if I randomly smile her way I get a million tail wags. :laugh:

Edited May 4, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Weasels]

Fergus used to do this too. He would also re-do the "trick" in an exaggerated manner and then glare at me ("did you see THAT?").

Last week I was training both my dogs together and trying to improve my girl's "wave", with both dogs sitting in front of me. The whole time my boy Weez was furiously moving his paw up and down and I could almost hear him thinking "for gods sake woman I'm waving! I'm waving!!" :laugh:

I must admit I found Stella a bit over whelming at times & I was loosing confidence in my own handling abilities for a while there. She is a very complex girl.Thought maybe she would be much better off in someone hands who has more experience than me as she has a tonne of potential. But I love her way too much to part with her

I've felt like this many times The first dog I got is just a biddable, focussed little sweetie pie that finds almost any kind of interaction or acknowledgement rewarding. Then I got Weez, who can be timid, reactive, less predictable, and also a bit overly bonded to my other dog. But I love him to pieces and even the little wins some days make me feel like we could take on the world :)

[fbaudry]

what you need to look at is if you have rewarded anxious behavior as part of your training. Hard when I can't see the dog ;)

If the dog becomes frustrated by the NRM - why. Let's problem solve. What meanings do your NRM have to your dog? Does it mean they actually did wrong? If you think they understand it as soon as you give it redirect them to try again. Some dogs need the whole pace of training to be a bit faster - long pauses and leaving them hanging can just get them to sit there staring at you like 'oh COME ONE WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!!!'. Anxiety usually means a scattered brain, the dog is not focussing on the task at hand but on something else (probably just getting the food)

any chance you could get a video of the whole process?

I could try an video it.... if you can put up with my lack of technical skills. I think you're definitely onto something with the pace of training bit; I think it is probably a bigger issue than the NRM as such. I am focussing on her stays at the moment (sit / down / stand ) and I find she gets really frustrated by it. We can do a few repetitions of stand stay with me 1 step back, but if I try to increase the duration ever so slightly, she'll start whining and then will sit / lie down and occasionally throw in other tricks she learned before (cross her paws / rub her eye).

Similarly, when I ask her into a stand again using the hand gesture, she will throw in a spin or a roll over and she really looks like she is in overdrive and desperate to do something right. And again I realize that I am really impatient and maybe I should train her at all...

[Nekhbet]

pffft technical skills dont worry ... if you get too caught up about it you wont get anywhere. Email it to me if its easier and I'm happy to give you a hand.

[BC Crazy]

Same with me weasels. This is the first time I have owned 2 dogs at the same time. Sonny is just a big

pussy cat. Calm & rock solid. Then when I got Stella I couldn't have got two more different dogs.

She is a very needy girl. Reactive & totally unpredictable but I am totally commited to make her the very best she can be & even if we don't make an Agility Trail as long as I can make her life a little stressful & she is comfortable in her own fur,

then I will feel I have achieved something.

[fbaudry]

Thank you Nekhbet!

I know I should do it, as I often wish I had someone at home telling me what I'm doing wrong.

By technical skills, I meant actually seeing the whole dog on the video, as opposed to a bit of wall, half my leg in the middle and the dog's tail in the corner :laugh:

[Luke W]

some dogs are naturally frustrated. Why not guide the dog to help him reach the final goal? Some animals find free shaping more an annoyance then anything else (my bitch walked off on me in disgust lol) As for Barkley carrying on, give him either a non reward marker or command him to be quiet. Dogs still need to learn what is unacceptable and what is not. Conversely make your end goal progression extremely linear in its shaping and dont try and change the parameters in too big a leap.

Barkly's NRM is broken. I probably need to start again. I use his NRM 'Uh' outside shaping (often inplace of "leave it")

what you need to look at is if you have rewarded anxious behavior as part of your training. Hard when I can't see the dog ;)

If the dog becomes frustrated by the NRM - why. Let's problem solve. What meanings do your NRM have to your dog? Does it mean they actually did wrong? If you think they understand it as soon as you give it redirect them to try again. Some dogs need the whole pace of training to be a bit faster - long pauses and leaving them hanging can just get them to sit there staring at you like 'oh COME ONE WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!!!'. Anxiety usually means a scattered brain, the dog is not focussing on the task at hand but on something else (probably just getting the food)

any chance you could get a video of the whole process?

I've probably rewarded anxious behaviour, but I try to only reward slightly anxious behaviour (). If a session goes longer than a minute or so and he's very eager...whine whine bark bark. If he doens't get rewarded quickly enough...whine whine bark bark.

I kinda know I should break it down into tiny sessions so he never has the opportunity to get frustrated - but that's hard.

"nxiety usually means a scattered brain, the dog is not focussing on the task at hand but on something else (probably just getting the food)"

Yes!

I need to get someone to video me too!

Edited May 4, 2012 by Luke W

[megan_]

Sorry to go OT, but with Fergus I keep free shaping sessions very short (about 30 seconds most times) and I break things down a lot so that he earns lots of rewards. I'm also not fussed about him learning the "wrong" thing, as it is easy to shape an alternative behaviour in a future session. I've also learnt to relax a lot more and find joy in watching him figure things out and get them "wrong". When you think about it, throwing a tantrum when you're not getting your way is pretty smart.

I normally let the dogs have a crumb of my toast in the morning. Yesterday I didn't give them any, and just ignored them. Lucy (my fearful girl) tried a sit, a drop and then wandered off. Fergus tried a sit, a drop, another sit, pawed me, growled at me. barked at me, ran to the spare room and banged his paws against the door for 20 seconds (a true tantrum!) then ran around the garden barking. I ignord him the whole time. He eventually came inside, gave me the stink-eye and curled up to sleep...all because he didn't get a piece of toast. While this can be annoying, I was impressed at his ability to try a range of behaviours to get what he wanted and his persistance. He is a joy to train and works so hard now that we've figured out how to work with each other.

In agility, he started shutting down when he got something wrong (a trainer told me to act dissapointed if he got it wrong, big mistake). I now reward him for trying again and have a cue for it. He is now so much more motivated to give it another go and runs back with enthusiasm to have another crack at it.

We're also started learning tracking and, much to my suprise, I have to tone down my enthusiasm and keep him calm and focused (via my voice, and pausing for a second before I release him to track). Maybe this technique is something that can benefit the "I'm excited out of my mind" dogs?

I think it is worth remembering that the things that can make a dog a pain in the a#@$# to live with sometimes are the things that make them great dogs to train. They get frustrated (they're driven to earn the reward), they tell you to hurry up, they give you the stink eye when you don't reward their brilliant performance. In the end, it is much easier to work with this sort of dog than a dog that gives you the finger and wanders off.

[megan_]

BC Crazy - it is perfectly normal to feel inadequate when you have a fearful or reactive dog. I have cried myself to sleep for many nights because of this . The that turned things around for me is when I realised that there wasn't a huge line of people looking for a fear aggressive dog and I was the best option that Lucy has, so both Lucy and I have to suck it up and get on with it.

[BC Crazy]

BC Crazy - it is perfectly normal to feel inadequate when you have a fearful or reactive dog. I have cried myself to sleep for many nights because of this . The that turned things around for me is when I realised that there wasn't a huge line of people looking for a fear aggressive dog and I was the best option that Lucy has, so both Lucy and I have to suck it up and get on with it.

[/quote

I certainly don't feel sorry for myself Megan & am sure it is "perfectly normal" to feel not knowledgable enough to give Stella the guidence she needs to find confidence at times. I actually have had people with far more knowledge than me say that Stella is exactly the dog they look for & want cause she has loads of drive

I always try to remind myself that you don't always get the dog you want but the one you need :)

So an update on 'getting on with it'. Took both dogs for a 20 min walk this arvo. Sonny first, then Stella on her own. As soon as I shut the gate behind me with Sonny in tow Stella screamed / howled the place down. I could here

her more or less the whole time I was gone I was expecting this but maybe not to that degree. OH was home but was just going about his business. Not engaging her in any way.

Then I came back & took her for 20 min's around the streets. She went very well. I couldn't fault her. Threw in a bit of sit/lay down e.t.c all good & seemed quite relaxed.

We will continue tomorrow, slow & steady.

Edited May 5, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Hi Pretty Miss Emma, I think our two girls sound sooo very similar in nature even down to the toy sucking :laugh:

By the way I brought the new RSPCA book for my mum for mothers day, love the photo of Emma & Kenzie, beautiful. You have done really well with Kenzie, there is hope for me yet :laugh: Thanks for your help PME, appreciate it :)

I think you are right there do seem to be quite a few similarities!!!

I think it's a beautiful photo - thanks!!! It's pretty much my last one of the two of them together, it was only about 1.5 months after it was taken I had to have Em PTS, so it's a bit special to me!!

[BC Crazy]

Hi Pretty Miss Emma, I think our two girls sound sooo very similar in nature even down to the toy sucking :laugh:

By the way I brought the new RSPCA book for my mum for mothers day, love the photo of Emma & Kenzie, beautiful. You have done really well with Kenzie, there is hope for me yet :laugh: Thanks for your help PME, appreciate it :)

I think you are right there do seem to be quite a few similarities!!!

I think it's a beautiful photo - thanks!!! It's pretty much my last one of the two of them together, it was only about 1.5 months after it was taken I had to have Em PTS, so it's a bit special to me!!

Oh very special & rightfully so. Just awesome. I will not only be giving mum a book, I will have a story to tell behind a beautiful photo that is in there.

[Vickie]

BC Crazy

Have you ever tried training her with markers?

I have worked with a few dogs severely lacking in confidence, including one of my own, and I find the best thing I can do for them in life and in training is to provide some constants for them. Markers allow you to provide something very predictable for a dog who fears the unpredictable and when used correctly can produce an autopilot response which can override fear responses. The beauty of it is that it is very uncomplicated to implement and can be used throughout their training, long after confidence issues have been overcome.

Since Stella already has high drive, I suspect she would embrace this kind of training.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Vickie

[BC Crazy]

Hi Vickie,

Had to edit my answer as I wasn't sure what you mean't by the term Markers. Mental blank due to Stella stress LOL. Yes I do use markers. I don't use a clicker I use the word "Yes" when Stella gets it right & treat her to begin

with, then randomly treat after she has learnt whatever it is I am teaching her." UH UH" & manually correct her if she gets it wrong. She does learn stuff really quickly. I am trying to slow her down at times cause she almost gets

ahead of herself & me for that matter :laugh: Everything is a million miles an hour with her. You can see her mind is constantly thinking. Stella tries very hard to get it right & hates getting it wrong.

I hope I am on the right track with her. She only knows some very basic stuff as up until this point. One reason being I don't know how to teach much more & 2. I haven't been separating her from Sonny as this would upset her to

the point & she would shut down. But after speaking with the behaviourist/trainer, she recommended I do this VERY slowly so that's what I have been doing, much to Stella's dismay.

Where we live there are no services for dog training / agility clubs or alike so I have been utilising this forum for most of my info & have been to 2 behaviourists for one on one help. I'm pretty much learning as I go.

Edited May 5, 2012 by BC Crazy

[ness]

BC Crazy I worked through K9Pro's TID distance package with my young BC who sounds a little similar to Stella. Its been 2 years since she started and within only a few weeks she was doing absolutely brilliantly and has gone from strength to strength.

Dare I say it but she is about as 100% reliable as a performance dog as you can get now. She is almost unflappable in those environments these days and has come a long way in her normal life as well.

We have had a lot of time out of action over the in the last 16 months but I took her back into the trial ring at a mock trial just last weekend and she was every bit the pushy confident dog I always wanted out of her.

Edited May 5, 2012 by ness

[megan_]

Unfortunately the TID course isn't available to new clients at the moment.

BC - markers let your dog know when they're on the right track, much like a clicker. I use "yes", "good" and my no reward marker is "too bad" said in a very neutral tone

[BC Crazy]

Unfortunately the TID course isn't available to new clients at the moment.

BC - markers let your dog know when they're on the right track, much like a clicker. I use "yes", "good" and my no reward marker is "too bad" said in a very neutral tone

Oh, of course

[BC Crazy]

BC Crazy I worked through K9Pro's TID distance package with my young BC who sounds a little similar to Stella. Its been 2 years since she started and within only a few weeks she was doing absolutely brilliantly and has gone from strength to strength.

Dare I say it but she is about as 100% reliable as a performance dog as you can get now. She is almost unflappable in those environments these days and has come a long way in her normal life as well.

We have had a lot of time out of action over the in the last 16 months but I took her back into the trial ring at a mock trial just last weekend and she was every bit the pushy confident dog I always wanted out of her.

I have pm'd you ness.

[BC Crazy]

Quick update regarding Stella.

Stella is going really well when I take her out on her own. Very obedient & seems relaxed which is terrific. However when I take Sonny out without her & leave her at home, even though OH was at home

though not engaging her, Stella goes ballistic. Screams, howls & cries her head off uncontrollably. She has her Thunder Shirt on (thought that may help) I can hear her the whole time I am gone like

3 blocks away Am also concerned as we have elderly neighbours who wouldn't think twice about complaining to the authorities & I wouldn't blame them.

Question being do I continue trying to separate her from Sonny even though she carries on like this? I really want her to mature with some confidence & I know she won't while she leans on Sonny like she does but

I don't know if there is any other methods I could use to do this. Last thing I want to do is upset her further & I don't want a dirty letter from the council either.

Idea's anyone ??? I am at my wits ATM with her as since I have been trying to work with her regarding this issue it seems to have raised her stress levels as she is a lot more reactive to everything around her

especially in her own backyard & her barking has seemed to have escalated a lot

Edited May 7, 2012 by BC Crazy