Dog That Lack's Confidence?

[BC Crazy]

Hi everyone,

I have recently been to see a trainer/behaviourist with my 18 month old girl "Stella" & apparently she is not a confident dog. Was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how I could help

her gain confidence. Is there any exercises I could do with her that could help her with this issue. She is a lovely girl but I feel she would be a lot calmer/relaxed if she was more sure of herself.

She is extremely bright & alert, although is very reactive. Really keen learner as well. She has basic obedience skills. ATM the trainer wants me to start separating her from my older boy "Sonny" as she has become far to reliant

on him & that is not helping her to develop appropriate coping skills. We are starting off very slowly as Stella doesn't cope well with sudden changes to routine, she shuts down quickly if it gets too much for her emotionally.

So a 10 min. walk on her own per day to start with in an area familiar to her & a quick game. I have just started to use a Thunder Shirt on her ( with great success) so far as well.

Any idea's / suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance :)

[Luke W]

watching with interest...

[megan_]

I had/still have a very fearful/under-confident dog.

It took a while for her to learn to learn and not think she was going to get a wallop when I tried to lure her, but I found her confidence really grew when I taught her simple tricks. A favourite is "hop in box", "hop on top" (of a box) and paws (I lured her to put her paws in something, she thinks this is the best).

Have you tried any free shaping clicker training? Dogs seem to get a real kick out of figuring something out themselves rather than just being lured.

Her confidence went to another level when she did basic agility training (and first she was too scared to even get on the pause table!). You need to find the right class for this (we only had one other dog in the class, with a dedicated trainer). We persisted even though she was scared of everything and now she loves it. Within a few weeks her confidence grew and even the groomer commented that she was a different dog after than short time.

When praising her, rather than making a big scene (like I do for my boy) I use a calm, soothing but happy tone and she seems to like this.

ETA: The other trick is to keep a really high rate of re-inforcement to let her know she's on the right track and a very good girl. I feed mine their meals via training and they'll get an entire meal within a few minutes.

Edited May 3, 2012 by megan_

[BC Crazy]

Hi Megan.

Thanks for your interesting post. I have tried clicker training but find it just too much in my hands as silly as that sounds but am very interest in 'free shaping' as I find Stella loves to figure

things out for herself rather than me asking her to do something. I am wondering if there is a link to view some of this stuff in action as I would love to learn more about it.

Agility is my goal for my girl but ATM baby steps are tearing her away from Sonny's side & getting her comfortable being by herself out & about. Then when we have got that far I am off to look for

a very good agility club which I will have to travel a fews hours away for as there just isn't anything in my area.

I also have to get Stella used to wearing a muzzle so I have just ordered one online.

I have found she responds much better with calm, quiet praise than YAAAA you did good !!!! like the way I give my boy a wrap. If I do that to her she shy's away from me & we shut down for a while.

You sound like you have come a long way with your under confident girl. Congrats to you, hope I can go half as well & I will be happy.

Edited May 3, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Anything fun!!! I found playing games with Kenz was a really good start, she also has confidence issues.

Trick training has worked wonders for us also!!! And tricks range from simple hi-5, shake, etc up to "put your ball in a basket and carry the basket to me". The reason tricks have worked really well for me is that she loves learning, and she knows her tricks really well. When we are in a situation where her confidence might be a bit shakey we start doing tricks, when she meets new people they do simple tricks with her. She's now at a point where she voluntarily goes up to people she's never met and will try to shake hands with them.

Another thing that worked well for us was teaching targetting/touch. I taught Kenz that when she sees a new person (or someone she doesn't see often) she needs to go and "say hello" (which actually means go and touch them on the leg with your nose) - people just think she's nudging them so that they will pay attention and say hello to her. Now that she's used to it she doesn't always nudge them she will often just go and sit beside them. But targetting can be good as it is a simple behaviour to learn and you can use it when they are close to you (as it is something they can do and do well even if it is a bit stressful - so I will get Kenz to touch my closed fist then touch the other one and she just goes back and forth between them). but it can also be used to help them get some distance from you by sending them out to go and touch a target plate.

Lastly for us agility has been brilliant. It has helped Kenzie realise she can do things independently and succeed at them. And it's heaps of fun for her (and me)!!!

I find free-shaping is really good with almost eveything I've mentioned here. Kenzie learns most things through free-shaping. The way I see it, free-shaping teaches a dog to learn and to try and that trying is ok because eventually you'll figure it out. And I think that is what builds confidence - trying, making some mistakes, but getting there in the end and doing it well. I haven't actually done a lot of reading etc on free-shaping it's just sort of how I've worked and how many around me have worked. I want to say that there is a book called something along the lines of 100 things to do with a box and that might be talking about free-shaping in that book (but don't quote me, I haven't read it!!!). The way I teach a dog to touch a target plate is free-shaped - have plate wait for dog to interact with it in any way and reward, then up the expectation of the interaction (so reward for glancing at plate, then looking at plate, then moving toward plate, then touching plate with nose briefly, touching plate for extended time, move plate to new positions/environments, etc, etc), obviously that's an exceptionally simplified version of my understanding of it but you probably get the gist. The benefit I see in free-shaping over luring or positioning a dog is that they have to problem solve, they have to try different things, they have to find the answer. As a trainer you need to have a good idea of what you are looking for (and alternatively be able to see what is happening and change your plan if you see something different occurring that you would like instead) and you need to be patient - I've done some work with a few dogs that were not brought up with free-shaping and at first I found them frustrating because they did not think it was ok to try they just wanted to do what they had always done, but eventually they figured it out!! I find this type of training very fun!!!

Sorry, got a bit out of control there with that lengthy response, hopefully some of it may be useful!! Only my interpretation/thoughts, but I have a little girl who is getting more and more confident and less and less reactive!!

[Weasels]

Agree with everything Megan & PME said :) I find Weez copes much better when I give him guidance on what to do rather than him trying to figure out the world himself. Whether that's some heeling, some targetting, some "chase me" or just a few tricks, when he starts to get uncomfortable these things help to put him back in his comfort zone. He also likes having a 'job' to do on walks, which is usually either chasing my other dog or just herding a tennis ball (he doesn't 'do' fetch :p).

If you find a clicker unweildy you could use a marker word like "good!" or "yes!", or alternatively you can buy wrist straps to attach your clicker to to keep it handy :)

[Luke W]

I really struggle with free shaping.

As soon as I delay a click (when I'm trying to change the criteria) Barkly starts getting frantic, barky and whiney.

I don't know why and I don't know how to make him more relaxed when training. He's very high-strung.

[Weasels]

Luke W are you rewarding with treats? Can you use lower value treats to reduce the excitement? When Weez barks at me in training I stop, turn away until he quiets, then go back a step or do something he already knows so he re-focusses. Or could you slow how quickly you are raising the criteria, break it down even more?

This is something I struggle with too, it's the flip-side of having willing workaholic dogs I guess

[fbaudry]

I really struggle with free shaping.

As soon as I delay a click (when I'm trying to change the criteria) Barkly starts getting frantic, barky and whiney.

I don't know why and I don't know how to make him more relaxed when training. He's very high-strung.

Watching with great interest...

That must be a cocker thing Penny is getting more and more like that, throwing random behaviours and being very whiney. The fact that it drives me bonkers and I'm not very patient at the best of time probably adds to her stress level.

[Luke W]

I really struggle with free shaping.

As soon as I delay a click (when I'm trying to change the criteria) Barkly starts getting frantic, barky and whiney.

I don't know why and I don't know how to make him more relaxed when training. He's very high-strung.

Watching with great interest...

That must be a cocker thing Penny is getting more and more like that, throwing random behaviours and being very whiney. The fact that it drives me bonkers and I'm not very patient at the best of time probably adds to her stress level.

I was talking to someone at agility who's been in the dog scene for a long time. He's also had spaniels. He told me cockers where a bit like that.

[megan_]

I really struggle with free shaping.

As soon as I delay a click (when I'm trying to change the criteria) Barkly starts getting frantic, barky and whiney.

I don't know why and I don't know how to make him more relaxed when training. He's very high-strung.

Fergus used to do this too. He would also re-do the "trick" in an exaggerated manner and then glare at me ("did you see THAT?").

I don't see it as a bad thing, it is all part of learning. He believes he is doing the right thing and isn't being paid for it, I'd be angry too.

I just kept calm, and ignored him (in a really relaxed way). The second the tantrum stopped and he did something - anything - I'd click and treat. That is, I didn't worry about teaching him the extended trick, rather I focused on teaching him persistance. Once he got this he'd start to try different things rather than throw a hissy fit. I now have the problem that he tries too many things too quickly - I can't keep up.

[fuzzy82]

I adopted a 12 month old shelter dog, and pretty soon it turned out that she must have been hit as punishment (scared of raised hands, thongs and clapping noises) and she generally wasn't very confident.

I started shaping tricks and started NILIF, and her confidence sky-rocketed. She's not as good at offering behaviours as my other dog who I got as a puppy, but she now LOVES training and she tries so hard to get it right. With the NILIF I think it built confidence because she learnt how to manipulate her environment, e.g. she can sit a the door to be let out, and do various tricks and behaviours to get other things, and just the sense of control boosted her confidence.

[Luke W]

I really struggle with free shaping.

As soon as I delay a click (when I'm trying to change the criteria) Barkly starts getting frantic, barky and whiney.

I don't know why and I don't know how to make him more relaxed when training. He's very high-strung.

Fergus used to do this too. He would also re-do the "trick" in an exaggerated manner and then glare at me ("did you see THAT?").

I don't see it as a bad thing, it is all part of learning. He believes he is doing the right thing and isn't being paid for it, I'd be angry too.

I just kept calm, and ignored him (in a really relaxed way). The second the tantrum stopped and he did something - anything - I'd click and treat. That is, I didn't worry about teaching him the extended trick, rather I focused on teaching him persistance. Once he got this he'd start to try different things rather than throw a hissy fit. I now have the problem that he tries too many things too quickly - I can't keep up.

Barkly does that as well! He'll glare at me AND bark.

I think the concept of teaching persistence is a good one. Maybe my initial focus should be on teaching him how to deal with free-shaping rather than using free-shaping to teach him something else.

[Nekhbet]

some dogs are naturally frustrated. Why not guide the dog to help him reach the final goal? Some animals find free shaping more an annoyance then anything else (my bitch walked off on me in disgust lol) As for Barkley carrying on, give him either a non reward marker or command him to be quiet. Dogs still need to learn what is unacceptable and what is not. Conversely make your end goal progression extremely linear in its shaping and dont try and change the parameters in too big a leap.

You do need to separate Stella, she's a dog that needs a crutch and it's him. But you need to transfer her attention onto you. Do some focus exercises, something where you show her what to do, small easy goals and reward often. You dont need to be hyperactive yourself, just mark her behavior with a YES and give her a treat. Easier then a clicker, I know it's just another thing to hold in your hand. Start in the front yard at least, then move onto the street, you can do this a few times a day. Every time she looks up at your face 'YES! Oh GOOD GIRL!' and when she's really intently watching you or watches you over something 'scary' is when the jackpot treat will come. Confidence comes slowly, the herding breeds can be shockers about lacking it.

I would also be looking at Stellas 'shut down' behavior. Is it a true, paralysing emotional shutdown or just a behavior she has learned that is blocking her progress. To her it may be the logical progression in the pattern, get excited, exhibit this behavior. Sometimes they just need to be stood up, dust off the BS and keep working, otherwise you always hit that brick wall as soon as the dog hits a certain stimulation level.

[fbaudry]

I really struggle with free shaping.

As soon as I delay a click (when I'm trying to change the criteria) Barkly starts getting frantic, barky and whiney.

I don't know why and I don't know how to make him more relaxed when training. He's very high-strung.

Fergus used to do this too. He would also re-do the "trick" in an exaggerated manner and then glare at me ("did you see THAT?").

I don't see it as a bad thing, it is all part of learning. He believes he is doing the right thing and isn't being paid for it, I'd be angry too.

I just kept calm, and ignored him (in a really relaxed way). The second the tantrum stopped and he did something - anything - I'd click and treat. That is, I didn't worry about teaching him the extended trick, rather I focused on teaching him persistance. Once he got this he'd start to try different things rather than throw a hissy fit. I now have the problem that he tries too many things too quickly - I can't keep up.

Barkly does that as well! He'll glare at me AND bark.

I think the concept of teaching persistence is a good one. Maybe my initial focus should be on teaching him how to deal with free-shaping rather than using free-shaping to teach him something else.

+1....

Megan you described exactly what happens here! She will thrown an exaggerated behaviour and stare at me whilst whineing... I need to work on MY ignoring her whilst staying calm.

Nekhbet, how do you suggest to go about "give him either a non reward marker or command him to be quiet"

My non-reward marker (too bad!) only seems to frustrate Penny further and I am at a loss as to how to get her to stop whining.

I must say she was fairly relaxed as a pup and I feel that I am creating this anxiety in her by doing obedience training

[megan_]

fbaury - I'd stop using that NRM as it seems "poisoned" - she is associating it with something bad. I'd try to teach the NRM away from other exercises.

[Nekhbet]

what you need to look at is if you have rewarded anxious behavior as part of your training. Hard when I can't see the dog ;)

If the dog becomes frustrated by the NRM - why. Let's problem solve. What meanings do your NRM have to your dog? Does it mean they actually did wrong? If you think they understand it as soon as you give it redirect them to try again. Some dogs need the whole pace of training to be a bit faster - long pauses and leaving them hanging can just get them to sit there staring at you like 'oh COME ONE WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!!!'. Anxiety usually means a scattered brain, the dog is not focussing on the task at hand but on something else (probably just getting the food)

any chance you could get a video of the whole process?

[BC Crazy]

Hi Nekhbet, so right what your saying about Sonny being Stella's crutch cause that is exactly what is happening. I have started doing some very simple work with Stella on her own for short periods of time to start with in our back

yard & she is responding extremely well. I am very suprised how well behaved she is, she just keep looking up at me all the time as if to say, "o.k. what do you want me to do now, bring it on" which is great. She is as keen as to

learn. I must admit I found Stella a bit over whelming at times & I was loosing confidence in my own handling abilities for a while there. She is a very complex girl.Thought maybe she would be much better off in someone hands who

has more experience than me as she has a tonne of potential. But I love her way too much to part with her So have decided to just try & break things down into small steps & concentrate on just one thing a time.

Interesting Nekhbet, your comments re Stella's 'shut down' behaviour & I will be paying much closer attention during our training to this as we may be able to work through some of this behaviour instead of automatically

stopping. Maybe a short break, then re start. Appreciate your imput / help Nekhbet with this.

[Nekhbet]

I dealt with a pair of BC x brothers like this. One was easy going, confident, the other total meltdown if he wasnt close. He too would just lie down and refuse to work or totally ignore his handler. One day it just clicked for him and he started listening and didnt look at his brother once the entire lesson. When he lay down I just got him up, and we moved on. He wasn't allowed to lie there and feel sorry for himself. He wasn't stiff or frightened it was more a real drama queen protest.

[BC Crazy]

Anything fun!!! I found playing games with Kenz was a really good start, she also has confidence issues.

Trick training has worked wonders for us also!!! And tricks range from simple hi-5, shake, etc up to "put your ball in a basket and carry the basket to me". The reason tricks have worked really well for me is that she loves learning, and she knows her tricks really well. When we are in a situation where her confidence might be a bit shakey we start doing tricks, when she meets new people they do simple tricks with her. She's now at a point where she voluntarily goes up to people she's never met and will try to shake hands with them.

Another thing that worked well for us was teaching targetting/touch. I taught Kenz that when she sees a new person (or someone she doesn't see often) she needs to go and "say hello" (which actually means go and touch them on the leg with your nose) - people just think she's nudging them so that they will pay attention and say hello to her. Now that she's used to it she doesn't always nudge them she will often just go and sit beside them. But targetting can be good as it is a simple behaviour to learn and you can use it when they are close to you (as it is something they can do and do well even if it is a bit stressful - so I will get Kenz to touch my closed fist then touch the other one and she just goes back and forth between them). but it can also be used to help them get some distance from you by sending them out to go and touch a target plate.

Lastly for us agility has been brilliant. It has helped Kenzie realise she can do things independently and succeed at them. And it's heaps of fun for her (and me)!!!

I find free-shaping is really good with almost eveything I've mentioned here. Kenzie learns most things through free-shaping. The way I see it, free-shaping teaches a dog to learn and to try and that trying is ok because eventually you'll figure it out. And I think that is what builds confidence - trying, making some mistakes, but getting there in the end and doing it well. I haven't actually done a lot of reading etc on free-shaping it's just sort of how I've worked and how many around me have worked. I want to say that there is a book called something along the lines of 100 things to do with a box and that might be talking about free-shaping in that book (but don't quote me, I haven't read it!!!). The way I teach a dog to touch a target plate is free-shaped - have plate wait for dog to interact with it in any way and reward, then up the expectation of the interaction (so reward for glancing at plate, then looking at plate, then moving toward plate, then touching plate with nose briefly, touching plate for extended time, move plate to new positions/environments, etc, etc), obviously that's an exceptionally simplified version of my understanding of it but you probably get the gist. The benefit I see in free-shaping over luring or positioning a dog is that they have to problem solve, they have to try different things, they have to find the answer. As a trainer you need to have a good idea of what you are looking for (and alternatively be able to see what is happening and change your plan if you see something different occurring that you would like instead) and you need to be patient - I've done some work with a few dogs that were not brought up with free-shaping and at first I found them frustrating because they did not think it was ok to try they just wanted to do what they had always done, but eventually they figured it out!! I find this type of training very fun!!!

Sorry, got a bit out of control there with that lengthy response, hopefully some of it may be useful!! Only my interpretation/thoughts, but I have a little girl who is getting more and more confident and less and less reactive!!

Hi Pretty Miss Emma, I think our two girls sound sooo very similar in nature even down to the toy sucking :laugh:

I am going to try some free-shaping, see how we go. I could see that really working for us. Stella mind seems to be doing over time anyway. She is a real thinker. I have just brought a new book a couple of days ago with some

tricks in it, we started off really simply with the "spin" & she loves it & can do that one already so we are onto the next one already. Have been keeping training short & finishing with her fav's like a game of tug or fetch

the ball. My goal is to give Agility a go with Stella down the track. I have never done it before but it looks like a tonne of fun & I really think Stella will love it.

By the way I brought the new RSPCA book for my mum for mothers day, love the photo of Emma & Kenzie, beautiful. You have done really well with Kenzie, there is hope for me yet :laugh: Thanks for your help PME, appreciate it :)

Edited May 4, 2012 by BC Crazy