Layering In Agility

[Kavik]

How do people train for layering in agility?

Both the Open courses on the weekend were courses where layering was either an option or the only way to do the distance challenge. I haven't trained anything in relation to layering, I use SG/GD handling. Mostly at the moment I just hope that by setting my line (having done lots of 1 jump exercises on this) and running hard he will do it and not turn in towards me :laugh: which sometimes works but didn't on the weekend.

I don't have a turn away from me cue so for both courses layering was the only handling option I could come up with. I avoid layering where at all possible. I have to admit I didn't see my handling option (which many tried) working too well for many people in the JDO course :laugh:

Edited May 3, 2012 by Kavik

[Luke W]

I'm not very good at distance challenges and I haven't trained for layering for ages and ages.

I wasn't entering many Open courses because Barkly's problem was making time in Master and I thought confusing him with layering would slow him down.

What I did do, ages ago was to teach an "out" command. I set up two jumps, side by side with a barrier between them

I would drive at the two jump and just before he reached the barrier, I would rotate my shoulders toward the outside and throw a toy so that he had to take the far jump.

Eventually I added the verbal queue.

It works sometimes on the course

I've got 1 pass to get his JDO and 2 to get his ADO.

[DeltaCharlie]

Our dogs are taught an 'out' command which pretty much means "I'm going to stay on my line over here but you need to move away from me and go over there". We have mucked around a little with the pups teaching them a "far" command too... which means go out past the closest obstacle and take the one that is further out. Some dogs just naturally have a better distance than others though, even within our pack (talking about the 7 border collies) there are varying degrees of distance that they are comfortable with. Some will just send out over a line not caring what is in between and will layer without a seconds hesitation, others will prefer to cut back in and try to take the closer obstacles.

Here are the videos we made of the last lot of training we did with both pups. Neither of them are trialling yet. The last exercise each pup does (on the grass area) is working on their distance and understanding of "out" and "turn" (turn away from us) to get them out and over the far jumps. Using that same set up, "out" would mean we wanted them to take the closer jump but would be staying around the serp, "far" would mean take the jump that was out further. Both of them were picking it up nicely but we haven't revisted it for a while.

[Kavik]

Kaos has pretty good distance naturally, and we often get the distance challenge if it is just about the distance and not so much handling, I haven't taught any turns or handling at a distance though, like the last one in DeltaCharlie's video. It could be that I wasn't running my line as hard as I should have, I know the first one I think I slowed down when I should have still been running. Just trying to figure out if there is anything I can do that doesn't conflict with the handling system I am using.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Kavik

[sheena]

I have taught the "out" command, meaning take the furthest object laterally away from me. I give this command as far back as possible from the layer to give the dog time to move out & away from the closest obstacle. You need to really put the body pressure on & make sure you keep your arm extended. If you drop your arm even the slightest, that is a cue for your dog to come towards you. As well as this I have taught my dog "obstacle discrimination" so that she knows the obstacles by name. We are pretty good on the distance handling bits when she is concentrating :laugh: I also use "out" if I want her to take the back of a jump...it's all in the timing as to when you give the command.

[canine fun sports]

I don't have a turn away from me cue so for both courses layering was the only handling option I could come up with. I avoid layering where at all possible. I have to admit I didn't see my handling option (which many tried) working too well for many people in the JDO course :laugh:

A note from the JDO judge:

The challenge was set up to handle with a turn away from me cue from a position where you would be slightly ahead of your dog (from the side closer to the starting line), but unfortunately 90% of people tried to handle it from the other side (side further from the starting line) so they were pushing there dog a little bit away from them, but most handlers were well behind their dog. To make this push harder, the exclusion line was veering away from the challenge.

Those who handled it well from what I considered the correct side did spectacular runs, including the winner. The dogs that made the challenge from the other side were dogs that just bolted out of the tunnel to the jump that was ahead, and I consider these dogs were, in fact, "blowing off" the postion of the handler who was behind them.

I stood there shaking my head with most of the runs because I was dumbfounded at the number of handlers who worked the other side to what I expected.

I have trid to attach the course below. It seems to load OK as a gif, but not as a bmp. Jumps 4 and 5 were staggered a little bit differently than this map.

Edited May 3, 2012 by canine fun sports

[Kavik]

Hi Le :)

I don't have a turn away from me cue (actually I don't think it is a preferred cue/handling decision in SG/GD handling? Will have to check on that) so I wasn't sure how else to try to handle the course :laugh: . I agree it wasn't ideal (and wasn't successful either!).

ETA: Looking at the map again and I still can't see a way that I could have done it with the handling skills I have other than trying what I did. Hmmm we may be in trouble now that we just got into JDM :laugh: May have to look into some new handling options.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Kavik

[DeltaCharlie]

Hi Le,

The way I would have handled it ideally would be to stay on the side of 3 and 4, give a turn (similar to what we were training the pups to do in those videos I posted) then picked them up again to put back through the tunnel. Is that how you intended?

Without seeing it on the ground and the distances, it would have seen varying results from my dogs. Delta would have picked up the turn but not necessarily sent out to the jump (depending on her momentum), Charlie has better natural distance but not as good an understanding of the turn command and I haven't trained him enough for a turn combined with moving further out, however, he is the sort of dog that I could have bumbled through it with as he is slower. Whip would probably have picked it up the best of my 3 as he has great distance, and a better understanding of verbals than my other 2. Not to mention we have been training these exact drills with him :)

What a great looking course, wish we were there to run it :) Are weave poles no longer required in JDO?

[megan_]

Hi Le :)

I don't have a turn away from me cue (actually I don't think it is a preferred cue/handling decision in SG/GD handling? Will have to check on that) so I wasn't sure how else to try to handle the course :laugh: . I agree it wasn't ideal (and wasn't successful either!).

I think someone asked Greg Derret this when he was out here, unless I'm misunderstanding what people are calling layering etc. His response? Don't run the course at all. Don't teach your dog to flick just to get a Q. He said this applies to a few of the games (including peopel ruining their decal cues to work at a distance).

[Kavik]

Hi Le :)

I don't have a turn away from me cue (actually I don't think it is a preferred cue/handling decision in SG/GD handling? Will have to check on that) so I wasn't sure how else to try to handle the course :laugh: . I agree it wasn't ideal (and wasn't successful either!).

I think someone asked Greg Derret this when he was out here, unless I'm misunderstanding what people are calling layering etc. His response? Don't run the course at all. Don't teach your dog to flick just to get a Q. He said this applies to a few of the games (including peopel ruining their decal cues to work at a distance).

Thank you megan, I was hoping someone with a better understanding of GD handling system than me would come in to let me know what is suggested in these cases :)

[Tailwag]

Looks like a fantastic FAST course to run and yes we would have used a turn away here, out of the 5 dogs we run i suspect 3 would have turn nicely the other 2 who dont totally 'get it' would have taken a bit more of a push to get them back over that jump.

[Vickie]

I don't think I train for layering as such. I do practice setting lines and a verbal "go on" supported by my own line and if there are jumps in between, then so be it. I also think (and I know it sounds weird) that you can project a line by believing in it yourself and focussing on a fixed point.

I was talking to someone today & realized that although I did train it, my "out" command is almost non-existent in practice and I can't remember the last time I asked my dog to move laterally away on course (other than in desperation ).

Lia, the only solution I can think of for you , (without expanding your tools available) is to perform a front cross between the tunnel & 4, then send to 5. So as not to deteriorate your decel cue, you have to do it around coordinates 12:15. It would be inefficient and waste time, but I believe it would be possible within the GD/SG system.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Vickie

[Vickie]

I stood there shaking my head with most of the runs because I was dumbfounded at the number of handlers who worked the other side to what I expected.

I was amazed at people's lack of fundamental understanding that dogs will nearly always curve towards you, so in most cases handing it from the other side and expecting them to take 4 instead of 5 (which was in a perfect curve) was doomed before it began.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Vickie

[Kavik]

Hi Vickie,

Your run was awesome to watch!

My spatial ability is not the best, so I am trying to figure out your suggestion but having problems visualising it :laugh: I am not so good at figuring out my handling from maps yet, need more practice.

[Vickie]

1336030737[/url]' post='5820858']

Hi Vickie,

Your run was awesome to watch!

My spatial ability is not the best, so I am trying to figure out your suggestion but having problems visualising it :laugh: I am not so good at figuring out my handling from maps yet, need more practice.

Thanks :). It was a really fun course.

Ok, I changed the coordinates. Look at the map and picture yourself standing at 12:15. As he comes out of the tunnel you are facing him, left arm extended. Do a full 360 deg with him on your left & send to 4. So you are basically slingshotting him around you. Hope that makes more sense.

[Kavik]

Sorry I still can't see it :laugh:

The only thing that I can see working is if you have really good distance control and can be on the other side of the tunnel at the start, send over the jumps and into the tunnel from a distance, then after 4 use threadle arm and keep them with you until you can send them over 5 and through tunnel, so basically run the outside of the line.

[Vickie]

Sorry I still can't see it :laugh:

Oh well, I tried :)

The only thing that I can see working is if you have really good distance control and can be on the other side of the tunnel at the start, send over the jumps and into the tunnel from a distance, then after 4 use threadle arm and keep them with you until you can send them over 5 and through tunnel, so basically run the outside of the line.

I'm not sure how this solves the problem, unless you could be on the outside of the line between 4 & 5 when you release and I'm pretty sure that would break rules in most handling systems...

[Kavik]

I was thinking maybe go all the way around the corner of the line, near 10 before sending over 5? Not pretty. Not sure if doable either :laugh:

[canine fun sports]

Just trying to figure out if there is anything I can do that doesn't conflict with the handling system I am using.

Layering and turning the dog away from you (which I call a tandem turn, and this is different to a change behind) are definitely frowned upon in the Greg Derrett handling system. Hence, there are some GD handlers who no longer enter open becasue these types of challenges are common in open class. The GD system also has limitations in Gamblers (at least the quite complex gamblers courses that I really enjoy doing). My personal advice to these people is a simple "Why choose a handling system with those limitations???"

I have my own handling system, heavily based on manoevres taught by Ronda Carter and Elicia Calhoun with a touch of a few others including what I have read of Linda Mecklenberg + I can think of one thing of Greg Derrett's that I include and my own finishing touches. I seem to be able to communicate to my dog with very rare moments of confusion with turns away, layering, distance and close work. Those moments of confusion are because my timing has been a little incorrect, rather than the dog received conflicting information.

There are many ways to teach the "turn away from me". They include either the "flick of the hand" (a no-no with GD), using the opposite arm to turn the dog away, which GD says should mean the dog turns to you. the way I work my dogs, the turn-away-from-me uses a very different arm movement and the dog naturally reads it. Another way to turn the dog away is to put pressure on the dogs line by moving closer to the dog. There are quite a few drills that can be done to develop these skills.

Layering is a very different skill to the "out", or "work wide" command. Lia, you are quite right to establish the dogs line, and then move parallel or slightly converge. If an obstacle happens to be between you and the dog, it should make no difference to the line that the dog takes. I believe (I am not a GD expert so I happy to be corrected) GD says that if there is an obstacle between you and the dog, the dog should converge to you over the obstacle. To me this is an artificial rule (one the dog does not do naturally, so you have to teach it.) Your movement should dictate (naturally) whether to converge, or keep driving.

To teach layering, first teach the dog to run a line parallel to you. Do multiple repetitions of a sequence, each time working a little bit wider. Once the dog is happy to drive the line out wide of you (with you moving parallel) the simply place some simple obstacles between your line and the dogs line. It it distracts the dog, you might simply start with a jump bar, then a single jump. You can put a target out in front of the dog.

NOTE - if you start to lag, then the dog should start to converge, because he will start to look back to see where you are. I would not choose to layer if AI thought I was going to be behind my dog.

Hope that all makes sense!

Cheers,

[kelpiechick]

Hi Le :)

I don't have a turn away from me cue (actually I don't think it is a preferred cue/handling decision in SG/GD handling? Will have to check on that) so I wasn't sure how else to try to handle the course :laugh: . I agree it wasn't ideal (and wasn't successful either!).

I think someone asked Greg Derret this when he was out here, unless I'm misunderstanding what people are calling layering etc. His response? Don't run the course at all. Don't teach your dog to flick just to get a Q. He said this applies to a few of the games (including peopel ruining their decal cues to work at a distance).

I believe Greg trains a verbal left and right cue rather than a turn away from him. Left and right (from memory) is irrelevant to his postion on course rather than a 'come toward me, turn away' type cue. This did come up in discussion about serpentine handling with fast dogs where it is occasionally difficult to get to positional cue so to stay consistent the verbal left and right can be used. He would only suggest not running the course at all if there was no other alternative available in his handling system... and most of the time there is - especially on open courses where it can usually be solved by taking the DQ and running over the line. Having said that, there are not too many open courses where I have had to resort to that.

Working at a distance doesn't necessarily have to ruin your decel cue either - unless you are handling it by standing still and flapping your arm at your dog while expecting them to move away from you.