Innotek 'no Bark' Collar

[Guest terrieres extraordinaires]

(SpikesPuppy @ 23rd Mar 2005 - 10:35 PM)

It's really getting to the point where we have to stop the barking or rehome her or maybe even have her PTS (not sure about the chances of her being rehomed due to the Sep. anxiety, etc). We were going to try the collar and it was a good chance it would work. But we cannot afford to spend the $160 that the Aus Innotek site is charging, not within the next few weeks at least, especially after losing the money on this one.

Is it fair to re-home her when she has this problem?..(just a thought)

That's why, if we can't at least control the barking, we are more likely to have her put to sleep rather than rehome her as I doubt there would be many people who are at home 24/7 to be with her.

I was considering the same for my boy but am glad to say now that he's finally old enough to start agility training he's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT DOG but still must use the collar. Interestingly I've discovered if his exercise/mental stimulation is not worked enough he begins to revert to his old bad behaviour so much of it I suppose can be attributed to frustration and boredom. To help with this i use a treat ball, treats frozen in an icecream container, kong filled with treats and dried kangaroo tails but still he exhausts this entertainment.

Even at his age (12 months) I feel I could do with some maternity leave! LOL

[Jed]

Hi, Spikes Puppy - just to give you heart.......Leo the rescue Cav had not been abandoned, but had had a bit of a rough life. He had a pretty jittery temperament too, and when he first came here, he barked non stop.

He had frightful separation anxiety - if I was inside and he was outside (with the the other dogs) he became hysterical - frothed at the mouth, he barked so much. He went berserk at any noise, and like Iko, he was demented if I left him.

I considered clomicalm - but he eventually stopped - it took 3 full months for there to be any reductiion and nearly 6 months for him to stop, so don't despair with Iko.

It may not be possible with Iko, but I crated Leo - I am not a fan of wholesale crating, but I let him sleep in my bedroom in his crate. I then put him in the crate at odd times, in the house, when I was moving around the house. I gave him bones in the crate, and occasionally took him to work in the crate. He had his own comfy bed in there too. I went away for short periods leaving him in the crate. Beginning with 10 minutes, as I was scared he'd kill himself

I suppose he came to see the crate as a place of security, and I left the door open, and him at home, so he could come and go. He took to having naps in it, and finally progressed to the stage where I could leave him at home ... whether he actually used the crate, I don't know.

The rest of the time, I allowed him to be with me and that certainly helped him. He was just lonely and afraid.

I also did some simple training with him - leash work, sit, stay, down etc. with excessive praise- from not accepting any of it (he was feral when he came) he began to like learning, and I think that helped him too.

Now, about 18 months on, he is a very good dog.

Good luck!

Edited April 1, 2005 by Jed

[SpikesPuppy]

Hi KathP:

Ok as it worked for your Kelpie we will see how long our council's waiting list for the Citronella collar is. Also will try out vet as they have hired them out in the past. Maybe it's a Kelpie thing? lol.

We haven't tried Rescue Remedy, but use 'Calm Down Dog' which is similar and it helps a little, makes her sleepy, but doesn't stop the barking. Will look for some RR though when we get the chance to go to the shops (Is hard to get out to shops as mum's working and I'm looking after the dog lol).

We would be happy to leave her inside the house but she's a terrible chewer. As we rent, we can't risk her destroying doors, carpets, etc.

So unfortunately outside she goes.

Hi terrieres extraordinaires:

I am aware of the potential risks involved with using something like this, but after weighing the good and the bad and countless testimonials from people n here and other dog forums & in 'real life' we are willing to take the risk.

Believe me, instructions will be read 10 X over before the collar even goes near the dog and she will be monitored very closely for the first uses.

While the case you describe is horrific, like ANY device, electronic or not, when used improperly they can pose a danger.

We are starting Obedience and Agility training with her as soon as we can get the joining fees together, which will hopefully be during this month, but she is doing (attempting at least) basic obedience with me & I spend 20-30 minutes most days doing agility training with her in the backyard (have tunnel, jumps, tyre & weaves).

She also gets at elast one 'day out' in the city for around 4 hours at a time each week as well as daily walks. But she's not a hyper active or overly energetic dog.

Unfortunately, my older Dobe bitch is food agressive so I can't give her any toys that use food when we are out, but we have tried this method with her and have left the Dobe inside, but once Iko realises we are gone (usually after 5-20 minutes depending) she starts the barking. She has plenty of non-food toys which she loves (she plays with them and proudly parades them while we are there etc) as well as my 8 month old Border Terrier puppy who she plays with constantly.

She's just very clingy.

Hi Jed,

Iko now has a crate, which she sleeps in at night (first few nights mum had to put up with whinging and whining but now Iko is quiet until the monring unless something disturbs/upsets her), and she is also put in her crate during the day at random times- most of the time now she's quiet unless something exciting is going on then she wants to join in the fun.

She IS improving with her 'away time'. She now plays in the backyard for up to 2 hours in the morning; but constantly looks through the back door to make sure I am still there (I'm on the computer which is visable from the door).

I ahve been ignoring her a fair bit during the day unless *I* want to play or give her attention. For the first few weeks, she was constantly wanting to climb on my lap, then she moved to sleeping under my chair. Now she will play with the other dogs, sleep on the couch and once she even went up the hall to sleep on mum's bed!

So she is getting less dependant.

As said above, I've been doing obedience with her but I don't think she's ever been taught how to learn; if that makes sense? I don't think she's a stupid dog exactly- she learns routine, etc, but teaching her commands is very difficult. She doesn't try to offer any behaviours to you. If you say 'sit' she will leap into your arms. if you say 'drop' she will elap into your arms, etc.

She's 90% reliable with sit (taught using food rewards), and about 50% reliable with drop.

I'm not overly experienced with training but I have done obedience before and have trained older dogs, but she just doesn't seem to 'click'. She's around 12-18 months old so if she's never been taught any commands, then she wouldn't know how to learn, right?

Her actual seperation anxiety is getting visibly better (as she knows we will come back)- I took her into the city today when i met a friend for lunch. i ahd to go to the loo so left my friend outside holding Iko's leash. Apparently she was tense until she saw me again, but she stood still & didn't bark once. She'd never met my friend before.

This is a great improvement especially since no less than 3 weeks ago when I left mum holding her leash while I went into Target, she carried on like a pork chop- even thoguh she lives with my mum!

Just the darn barking that hasn't seemed to improve or change.

It's uplifiting to read other's stories of success, and to know I'm not the only one lol.

And it's nice to be able to 'get it all out'. It may seem sometimes like I don't want this dog or she is a 'burden' or whatever but she's not. If we weren't dead-set on keeping her we wouldn't be doing this. I can think of so many more things I could spend the $400-odd dollars thatw e have spent so far on her, on.

But having had rescue dogs before (and still do..) we know how rewarding the end result is and it's all worth it. She's gonna make a fantastic agility dog!

And she's a great cuddler

Just wondering how other people managed their daily lives while training their dogs to accept being left alone?

Thanks all

Here is the gorgeous Girl:

Playing with Caber (who I am sure thinks that Iko was gotten for him!)

[Guest terrieres extraordinaires]

Hi Spikes Puppy.

GREAT to hear Iko has made such GREAT IMPROVEMENT. You should be very VERY proud! Also good you're crate training her, and also doing obedience and especially AGILITY!!

As for 'not knowing how to learn' I know EXACTLY what you mean because my 1st dog which I got as a 4 year old didn't even know how to sit or anything, and I had to teach her how to learn. As she'd had no 'life' prior, her brain was like a dry sponge soshe learned instantly and willingly. Perhaps in her past Iko has been conditioned to wait until someone puts her into the desired position?

A really great way to teach them how to use their brains is to use 'clicker' training. To put it simply, it's a bit like the 'cold, warm, hot' game that most of us played as a kid. 'Click' and reward with a treat each time she does the desired behaviour but without any voice or command. So it really becomes a guessing game. Keep in mind she might be a little slow to catch on if she still lacks self confidence. If this is the case, teach it to one of your other dogs first and she'll learn from them.

If you want to learn more about clicker training there are many websites - but sorry I can't quote any - that rave about this method of training. The most important thing is that you're timing the click at the correct instant - and it DOES take some practice so try it out before trying it on your dogs.

And oh yes I know what you mean about the cost of trying to 'keep' a problem dog - my little boy has cost me $1200 so far in professional advice, vet fees, collars, day care etc. and that doesn't include what I paid to buy him!

So continue the good work, Spike's Puppy!

[Kavik]

She looks VERY similar to my kelpie cross Zoe! Isn't that interesting! I'm tossing up giving agility another go with her.

I would have thought clicker training would be the MOST difficult with a dog like this that does not offer behaviours . . . I tried it with Zoe (not originally clicker trained) and she would just sit there and do nothing . . . very frustrating . . .

Here is my little troublemaker with her friend Diesel

[SpikesPuppy]

My Gosh they are alike!!! Apart from the white markings Zoe has...

I know Zoe is a rescue dog, but what's her story?

Will also agree with you Kavik on clicker training. We just started about a week ago (finally got around to getting the clickers. oops) and she just gives the blank stare. We 'charged' the clicker up and she will look expectantly for a treat when we click it, but she will not offer any behaviours.

She just stares blankly at you for ages. I feel so sorry for her not having the ability to 'think' for herself, if that makes sense.

Especially being a Kelpie she should have oodles of brains!

We think that she has been hit in the past, maybe even beaten as for the first few weeks we had her she would cower when we put her food dish down and when she wanted a drink she would slink over to the bowl. She's much better now but it can still be difficult to get her to relax when drinking if we are not at home.

She also bolts if you pick certain things up, like brooms & even the tea-towel!

It's such a difference in my 8 month puppy who picked up clicker training in 5 minutes and will turn himself inside out trying to offfer the right behaviour.

hehe I wish the digi cam worked inside- both her and Caber are tired out from a big walkies and are curled up together by my chair. Caber is sooo in love lol. Iko is his dog- not ours. We kept her just for him

[Kavik]

I got Zoe in January 2000 from Burwood pound - whoever their foster carer was (can't remember name - maybe Corinne?). Along with her brothers and sisters she was found dumped in a cardboard box at 6 weeks of age, with lots of fleas and little hair as a result and underweight. I got Zoe when she was 11 weeks old, they more active of the two pups left for adoption. Still had a ton of fleas, we were told a flea allergy (have not had any problems in this regard, although she developed demodectic mange briefly as a pup).

I got her as I started the NDTF course, as a dog to learn with and do obedience and agility (my other dog Belle who I had with my parents was around 10 at the time, too old I thought to really try new stuff with). I took her to puppy preschool (admittently Bark Busters, but didn't know at the time how bad they were), also to obedience classes from 4 months, and to the local off lead park.

We were doing fine until around 6 months when she started to become aggressive towards other dogs, at first just at a distance and fine close, then aggressive except towards certain 'friends'. Not really sure what triggered it. She doesn't have great nerves, becomes scared of things easily, so maybe someone too rough at the park?

Have tried numerous things to fix it, the best so far to get her attention on me with food and heel past other dogs, keep it fast and upbeat. Works if I am able to see the dog in time and if it is not lunging at us. We are able to do group stays at ob and run agility off lead no problem, it is when things are a bit crazy and not structured we have problems.

She has always been a bit skittish, loves hiding under beds and couches (now mainly in her crate), not good with fireworks or storms. Can be a bit on the noisy side when exciting things happen (kids in the pool, people having a loud party next door).

I have trained her mainly with food and a check chain, although I do have a martingale and a halti for her (she hates the halti, but it is good for when she freaks out on a walk, or I need extra control).

She is not a cuddly dog, likes a pat and the odd scratch (and giving kisses), but likes her personal space. She will be near your feet, not on your lap.

[SpikesPuppy]

Poor Zoe sounds like she had a rough start to life but good on you for sticking with her. I ahte to think wher she would be if a less-dedicated person adopted her

her story actually reminds me of my Dobe X, Miss Timothy. She was dumped in a box at 3 weeks of age with her 2 siblings. At 14 weeks, she was the last one left at the Lort Smith Hospital.

She was extremely timid, and looking abck now- definately not the best dog for an 11 year old girl! But we understood each other, in a sense. She rarely pulled on the leash when I had her but if mum had her she would literally pull mum to the ground.

She's always been quite dog-agressive (didn't get to pre-school as she was too old), but we did private lessons where she got to the last level before Encouragement/Novice standard by the time she was about 3 or so.

She did have her 'special' friends which she would never hurt or be agressive too, and if she was off-leash she would never start a fight but she woulnd't back down!

She also has next to no recall (knowing what I know now, I would never have let her off-leash at the dog park; but she was sorta like an 'old days dog' who wandered around the park and when she was ready would come back to me, etc) which is why although she is fantastic at agility I cannot trust her off-leash to do it).

She's now 9 and a half and even with her problems she is what I wanted- a dog to grow up with and be my best friend. We had all sorts of 'adventures' together.

Her confidence has changed alot over the years- expecialy once she matured between 4 &5 yrs. She now goes up to most people and will happily be patted and she is now at novice trial level, but I wouldn't trust her in the stays, etc. Agility helped with the confidence alot.

Now she's a big sook who's getting older and just wants to sleep and go on the occasional walk (she lets me know if she wants to go or not).

She's also been a big cuddle pot hehe. Typical Dobie.

but she is still terrified of storms/fireworks/loud noises like car backfires, etc. Gets worse each time actually.

Edited April 3, 2005 by SpikesPuppy

[Kavik]

Yes, it was a steep learning curve with Zoe. If I had my time over with her, I would have changed a few things I did. It has taught me a lot though, and I can sympathise with people whose dog has issues (I have learned that not all trainers understand how difficult some dogs can be.) I do NOT plan on going through this again - it has unfortunately put me right off rescue dogs (sorry rescue people - no offense. You all do a great job).

I am interested in getting to as high a level as I can in training with my dogs (whichever field I decide), and it is easier when you don't have so many other problems to deal with as well as the training. For a beginning serious competitor, I don't feel I need the extra challenge!

[Amynta]

Sorry to jump onto this topic so late. Not sure if there have been any new developments in getting the collar out of customs.

I bought an Innotek invisible fence a few weeks ago. It is very similar to their no bark collars - with the "uncomfortable vibration" and all that. Unfortunately, I was ordered by the local court to install one of these as my dogs got out once and killed a goat.

Anyway, back on the subject, I bought it through VetShed online, along with a few other things, but the shipping was delayed on the Innotek stuff, as they order it from overseas. It was, however, delivered directly to me (not through VetShed's warehouse) through the post from America. I can't see why customs would have stopped yours from coming through.

[SpikesPuppy]

Very odd, Amynta. Stoopid customs.

We sent the Request for return of the collar off on Friday, not too hopeful but hey we have to try!

Kavik- I totally understand what you mean about Rescue Dogs. I'm not entirely put off them, but if I do go out and purposefully get another rescue dog, I would definately be going through and organisation and getting a fostered dog, so I would at least know some of it's behaviour.

Having said that though- I'm just as likely to keep another dog I or mum finds on the road :rolleyes: (after the 8 days etc of course).

But when actually LOOKING for a dog, I am definately more likely to go to a breeder again. So much easier.

But on the other hand- after the hard work is done, having a rescue dog can be extremely rewarding.