Mystiqview Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 We had a litter born on Anzac day by C-sect. One pup was born naturally then the visit to the vet. According to the vet, they think the bitch may have had an infection in the womb causing her to "overcook" the puppies. The placentas were quite broken down when they did the C-sect and were worried about some puppies not making it. In the next 24 hours we had fading puppy syndrome and lost the two largest females. We were given antibiotics for the remaining pups and I have not lost any more. The bitch was also nearly on the border of mastitis (only rock hard and lumpy looking - no puss/blood). We drained her and she is now nice and supple and is now not producing the volume of milk she was. I think there is probably still enough there to feed pups, but not the excess. Two puppies - the one born naturally (180gr born) and the littlest one weighing 141 grams at birth are not putting on as much weight as I would like. The rest of the puppies are putting on the expected 10-20grams/day where these two wee ones are only putting on 2-5gr/day. I am concerned they are not putting on enough weight. They all got good coats, not dehydrated, suckling from mum and being supped 4-5 times/day by bottle on Wombaroo milk replacer. The two little ones SHOULD be putting on more weight than they are. Bitch has been on antibiotics since the C-sect. She has been wormed Does anyone have any suggestions that I am missing here to get these two to put on more weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I am concerned they are not putting on enough weight. They all got good coats, not dehydrated, suckling from mum and being supped 4-5 times/day by bottle on Wombaroo milk replacer. The two little ones SHOULD be putting on more weight than they are. Personally, even though they have a strong suck reflex, I'd be tubing them their Wombaroo. Sucking uses calories as does staying warm. So if they're expending more calories to feed and stay warm than what they are actually ingesting, you simply won't get weight gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) I too would be tube feeding them, if you're able. Ensuring a nice warm temp is also critical, even if you top up with a bottle/tube feed until you know they're full, then put them in a heated box away from mum for an hour or so. Sometimes that really solid sleep they get, being full and really warm, can be enough to boost their condition.Being with mum and other pups means mving and fidgetting and slightly flucuating temp, which can be added stress when they've had a difficult start. So sorry for your lost pups. Edited April 30, 2012 by Alyosha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) I have one large "redflex" heat pad and two smaller wombaroo heat pads in the box on about 4 wool blankets, kylie sheets and then a synthetic wool blanket on top (which is easy to wash and dry). Over the corner of the whelping box where one heat pad is butted up, is a small polar fleece blanket, where they can snuggle under for added warmth if they need to. (not to mention the box is covered with blanket as well to prevent drafts. Vets have advised against tube feeding as it can cause a sore/rub spot on the back of the throat which can lead to infection, and have only advised to tube feed at absolute necessity (ie: not suckling from bottle) Not good as I have already had infection causing the fading puppy syndrome. I just did a quick calculation: the smallest pup is putting on about 3% body weight/day and the large pups are putting on about 5% body weight/day. I suppose when you look at those figures, the wee ones are not doing too badly. I just so much more like it when I see 10-20 grams/day rather than 2-5 grams/day Edited April 30, 2012 by Mystiqview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 To be honest, that is the first time I have EVER heard of anything like that with tubing and I have been doing it for many, many years as and when required. And to be honest, I prefer it over bottle feeding because of a) the reduction in air swallowed by puppies, b) the ability to be absolutely positive how much each puppy has been fed and c) the rapidity of it. Oh well, good luck with them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Ellz, I have been lucky to never had to tube feed before. Someone sent me some articles on Fading Puppy on Facebook the other day, and even there seems to be a mixed thought on tube feeding vs glucose water. I supped Mia's first litter as she had 11 puppies in there - more due to the numbers than anything else. I have never had fading puppy before either. It has just seemed with this litter, Mia has not been happy from the start. I am weighing pups before and after feeds and have some pretty good digital scales, so I know how much is going in at every bottle feed. I suppose that is what makes this so interesting. Is reading everyone's different thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puglvr Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 have you tried beef liver tea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Personally, even though they have a strong suck reflex, I'd be tubing them their Wombaroo. Sucking uses calories as does staying warm. So if they're expending more calories to feed and stay warm than what they are actually ingesting, you simply won't get weight gain. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Vets have advised against tube feeding as it can cause a sore/rub spot on the back of the throat which can lead to infection, and have only advised to tube feed at absolute necessity (ie: not suckling from bottle) Never heard of that. Not good as I have already had infection causing the fading puppy syndrome. Is FPS really an infection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Sway: The common term, "fading puppy syndrome", describes the symptoms, rather than an actual or separate disease, in young puppies. Affected young puppies are generally less active, lack vitality, and often fade away, and finally die within 2-3 weeks of birth. They often fail to gain body weight in proportion to their age and their litter mates, despite appearing to suckle well and consume part of their special puppy food, e.g.. Farex and milk, from the first week of age. In most cases, fading puppies will suffer a low-grade infection with a virus or bacterial germ. However, occasionally, failure to thrive can be due to inborn metabolic errors, from a genetic or development abnormality, or other internal digestive malfunction in the young puppy. Puppies that seem normal at birth but rapidly deteriorate within the first 2-4 days, are most likely to have a bacterial infection, which can cause them to lose interest in nursing and deteriorate from the first day of birth. Usually, these puppies die within the first 2-5 days after birth, although some may linger on, depending on the amount of nursing and any other type of therapy that is given. Fading Puppy Syndrome Fading Puppy Link 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I think there are some who would have an infection, and others who don't but many get called FPS, because others who have pups with FPS manage to save them with the beef liver recipe, that has no antibacterial properties in it, it it was infection have to does beef liver save them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Vets have advised against tube feeding as it can cause a sore/rub spot on the back of the throat which can lead to infection, and have only advised to tube feed at absolute necessity (ie: not suckling from bottle) Never heard of that. Am only repeating what three vets down at my local emergency hospital have advised. They will advise tube feeding if it is absolutely necessary (ie: not able/willing to feed from bottle/mum). But advise caution for previous mentioned issues (not to also mention the risk of using a too small a tube and getting in lungs or not withdrawing the tube properly and fluid coming up and going down to lungs). I have taken both puppies down there to try to save them. Unfortunately they were too far gone. The first puppy very quickly came down with sepicaemia within an hour or two - rear pads on feet turning blue and then spreading to belly and the front paws. Within 6 hours the second puppy succombed and detiorated just as quickly as the first. At the moment, the remaining 6 puppies seem unaffected and have been on antibiotic drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Years ago when I used to breed I had fading puppy syndrome that was caused by infection. One of the symptoms was a mewling cry that I never want to hear again. Surviving puppies were on antibiotics as where subsequent litters on vet advice. Vet science has advanced since then so the treatment of later litters may have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) Am only repeating what three vets down at my local emergency hospital have advised. They will advise tube feeding if it is absolutely necessary (ie: not able/willing to feed from bottle/mum). But advise caution for previous mentioned issues (not to also mention the risk of using a too small a tube and getting in lungs or not withdrawing the tube properly and fluid coming up and going down to lungs). The key is to insert the tube, withdraw on the syringe and if you see stomach juices coming up the feeding tube you know you are in the right spot. (I had a Premmie daughter and this is what they do) You then disconnect the syringe, and put on another one without the plunger and the milk flows down the tube. If you use a plunger do not push fast as milk will spill up and an go into the lungs. If you feel/see the puppy struggling you are sucking air out of it's lungs. (I have done this, puppy is now 2) Edited April 30, 2012 by SwaY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I have taken both puppies down there to try to save them. Unfortunately they were too far gone. The first puppy very quickly came down with sepicaemia within an hour or two - rear pads on feet turning blue and then spreading to belly and the front paws. Within 6 hours the second puppy succombed and detiorated just as quickly as the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Years ago when I used to breed I had fading puppy syndrome that was caused by infection. One of the symptoms was a mewling cry that I never want to hear again. Surviving puppies were on antibiotics as where subsequent litters on vet advice. Vet science has advanced since then so the treatment of later litters may have changed. Nothing has changed Janba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Am only repeating what three vets down at my local emergency hospital have advised. They will advise tube feeding if it is absolutely necessary (ie: not able/willing to feed from bottle/mum). But advise caution for previous mentioned issues (not to also mention the risk of using a too small a tube and getting in lungs or not withdrawing the tube properly and fluid coming up and going down to lungs). The key is to insert the tube, withdraw on the syringe and if you see stomach juices coming up the feeding tube you know you are in the right spot. (I had a Premmie daughter and this is what they do) You then disconnect the syringe, and put on another one without the plunger and the milk flows down the tube. If you use a plunger do not push fast as milk will spill up and an go into the lungs. If you feel/see the puppy struggling you are sucking air out of it's lungs. (I have done this, puppy is now 2) Yep. Pretty much how vet showed me to tube feed. THey said most cases puppies will swallow the tube if you are gentle and if they are, to encourage it. They had me to gently blow in the tube and then listen to see if I heard the lungs as well. They also said before you withdraw the tube, to pinch the end so it does not flush back up and into the lungs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I fold the end over as I find it easier then pinching as I am nervous already when doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 You will find too that a tube cannot go very far in if in the lungs. A stomach tube should go in a whole lot further. You can mark the tube after measuring it on the outside of the pup - it should reach to the end of the ribcage. I put the tube in warm (boiled) water to soften the end. I've never had a throat irritation, and have tube fed lots of pups, and countless wild animals, from birds to reptiles to mammals. It is low stress and effective, and great for tiny animals that are using up vital energy in suckling (or resisting in the case of wild ones!!) This is a great tube feeding puppies video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Trip Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 One other thing to try, if your bitch is still on antibiotics (or the pups themselves) a few small dollops of natural yoghurt deposited on the tongue with an eyedropper or needle-less syringe will be of benefit to the balance of beneficial bacteria in the puppy's gut. Just enough to cover the finger tip will make a difference in a newborn pup. Used in conjunction with the milk supplementation (or even by itself in some cases) this will often bring some slower pups on and allow them to thrive. Protexin will also help if you can get it - its a concentrated and pure source of beneficial gut bacteria. The antibiotics are a double-edged sword because although needed to counter infection, they also inadvertently destroy the essential natural flora of the gut. You would need to time the yoghurt supp. between doses of antibiotics until the course has finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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