Repeating Commands

[Weasels]

I get a fair bit of conflicting information about repeating commands. The traditional wisdom being 'never repeat a command', which makes sense in theory but doesn't always work out in real life. I have also had it put to me that a dog listening to its instincts isn't necessarily processing what you say the first time and repeating is necessary for these kinds of working dogs (which seems to be the case with top herders training their BCs who repeat commands all the time).

So I'm interested in what people in here do in training, why, and what kind of temperament your strategy works on. It's poll time!

Thanks :)

Edited April 28, 2012 by Weasels

[DogsAndTheMob]

Any of the above, depending on the circumstances. I give a second command (with more command in my voice) if I think the dog is likely to obey it. If I don't think a second command will "work", I only give one in an emergency situation. Either way, I follow up ASAP by reinforcing training in a controlled situation... and repeat this just before I go back into the situation where the dog ignored me.

Herding is different, because the situation is fluid (by the time it has gone from thought to words to dog's response, the sheep may be doing something entirely different), so I need "intelligent obedience" or "intelligent disobedience". If I'm not happy with my dog's response to commands, I practice general commands (eg drop) as much as I can away from the sheep then, when working the sheep, try to ensure that on-sheep-only commands (eg flanking commands) align with the dog's instincts until communication channels are open again.

[Weasels]

Any of the above, depending on the circumstances. I give a second command (with more command in my voice) if I think the dog is likely to obey it. If I don't think a second command will "work", I only give one in an emergency situation. Either way, I follow up ASAP by reinforcing training in a controlled situation... and repeat this just before I go back into the situation where the dog ignored me.

Herding is different, because the situation is fluid (by the time it has gone from thought to words to dog's response, the sheep may be doing something entirely different), so I need "intelligent obedience" or "intelligent disobedience". If I'm not happy with my dog's response to commands, I practice general commands (eg drop) as much as I can away from the sheep then, when working the sheep, try to ensure that on-sheep-only commands (eg flanking commands) align with the dog's instincts until communication channels are open again.

that all makes perfect sense, thank you :) I often get indecisive at herding training about whether I should insist on a command or move on with the situation, but lately because my dogs are getting a bit too pushy I've been erring on the side of insisting. I've also started clicker training a "stop" on our morning walks at various distances away to try to reduce the necessity of repeating when we are on sheep :) (I do practice flanking with Weez sometimes around my other dog who he is quite obsessed with )

[DogsAndTheMob]

Have a look at the articles here http://www.abcollie.com/index.php/articles/ and here http://www.patrickshannahan.com/articles.asp

Although I don't agree with every aspect of their approaches, I've learnt so much from these articles. I particularly like their focus on communication and working with each dog as an individual. And if you want to be inspired, look at some of the internet video of Red Top Riggs competing in ISDS-style trials.

[hankdog]

Mostly I repeat once then place but we're still on very simple commands. Different situations might need a different response though.

[Weasels]

Thanks DogsAndTheMob, I have been looking through those links on & off yesterday and they seem really sensible :) I'll store them away and keep reading.

I've been experimenting with what works in different situations, I think I'm slowly building a plan for different scenarios (e.g. at the park, at training, on-leash). Thank godness I have forgiving dogs to let me do all these experiments on them :p

Edited April 29, 2012 by Weasels

[aussielover]

I repeat commands but it depends on the situation as to how I would do it.

I would only repeat it a maximum of 3 times generally though. Also depends on whether I think the dog understands what I am asking.

I've been told to keep my mouth shut in agility though :laugh: I don't think a lot of noise helps my dog understand what is required. I've noticed she runs in a much more focussed way and faster when i make the effort to not talk as much.

[wuffles]

I don't repeat. Sometimes I give my big stubborn dog two chances because I'm lazy, but my little obedience dog doesn't generally get any commands repeated. I have learnt when she is going to respond and when she isn't, and when she isn't.... I don't give the command at all :) The only reason she doesn't respond is if she doesn't understand, or is over her threshold.

[dasha]

Depending on the situation.

I have heaps of dogs all at various ages and levels.

The young dogs I expect them to come when I call their name ONCE. I don't like repeating it if they are clearly within earshot and are just being ignorant.

When the older dogs are actually working sheep I still expect them to obey the command I gave. Yes repeating commands are VERY common in working dogs as often when a dog takes the command, they sometimes only have to lean the way you asked and the sheep respond and so the dog will instinctively flick back to a control point and so you need to repeat it again to ask for more. It is tricky in sheepdogs as there is no definitive end to the command given.

In training with the older dogs, if I give the command, the dog is to take it. I don't care what the sheep are doing. If you can't get the commands over instinct in a training environment on broken in sheep, you sure as hell won't get the obedience in the trial ring. Thats whole idea of command over instinct.

It doesn't just apply to sheepdogs. Its other sporting that requires the same control over instinct as well. Retrieving dogs still need to take a directive of a handler even though its instincts are to go fetch the bird that just fell to the right and the handler sends it left etc.

[fuzzy82]

I go over and position the dog. I do occasionally repeat commands though, I think a dog that is fixating on a bird or other dog or whatever is unable to hear a command, and if they didn't hear it it's not really fair to go over and position them.

If that's the case I will go closer and say it right in their ear. It's never happened that they haven't complied when I've done that, so I think whenever they don't comply it's because they were unable to hear me.

[superminty]

Obedience and herding commands can be quite different concepts. A herding command may involve varying intensities of an action, where an obedience command is for one action (generally, that action may involve several components but is still a single concept).

I don't repeat obedience commands, but I have herding commands that get repeated i.e. "walk up" means apply pressure, which might start with eye, then movement towards the stock, then quicker movement, then more eye and might culminate in a bite if necessary. So I would say "walk up" = apply eye, "walk up" again means apply more pressure etc etc.

Flank commands get repeated too. A flank command for me means "go in the direction I've asked until you get to balance (for a fetch), then turn in unless directed otherwise". So if I want the dog to fetch to me, I give the flank command once, the dog goes around in that direction to balance and fetches the sheep to me. But if I want a drive away, then I will give the flank command again once the dog reaches balance for a fetch (where he should be turning in naturally) to tell him I want him to continue the flank.

For an obedience "down" though, even if in a herding ring, if I say "down", the dog must lie down and I will insist without repeating the command. This is the "command over instinct" that Dasha was talking about - the dog must lie down and stay there no matter what the stock are doing. Whereas my "stop" command means "stop your feet but stay on the ball" so if a sheep were to break, the dog can cover and I won't get mad. If I wanted the dog to pause for a length of time until another command is given, I will use "stop" then "down".

Edited May 1, 2012 by superminty

[Weasels]

Thanks for all the interesting replies :) It's really helped me think about what I do not only in different contexts but also differently between my 2 dogs.

With Fox I really expect her to follow the commands so if she doesn't respond on the first go I will generally yell her name in a sharper tone, so she looks at me, and then repeat, and that works with her because she's a Good Dog. With Weez though (the 'problem child' :laugh:) I try different things on different days and I'm not sure it's doing me any favours I think I'm going to need to set him up for success more to keep the commands sharp :) Plus I think I'm repeating too often with Weez, I should probably stop being so lazy and go over to him more often

When I say flank commands it means "go in a circle until I say stop", I have a different command for picking up sheep and bringing them in. So I only repeat the flank when they are starting to fall in or start going "really? are we done with this yet? There's some sheep poo over there I could be eating". The ones I really end up repeating are stops and downs, which is probably just a matter of more training to get those commands overriding their instincts better as you say. But at least in training I've got some experienced feedback, it's more their "real world" obedience I am trying to tweak for maximum efficiency :)

[OSoSwift]

It depends, if it is a get on your bed command at home, yes I will repeat it - firmly.

If it is an obedience command for example, down from the stand, if they miss it I walk back, call them up to heel, stand them again and ask again. If they were to miss it again I need to think about why. I do not repeat obedience commands.

If it was out and about and a life/death situation I do whatever it takes, even if that is 50 repeat commands :)

[DogsAndTheMob]

Thanks for all the interesting replies :) It's really helped me think about what I do not only in different contexts but also differently between my 2 dogs.

With Fox I really expect her to follow the commands so if she doesn't respond on the first go I will generally yell her name in a sharper tone, so she looks at me, and then repeat, and that works with her because she's a Good Dog. With Weez though (the 'problem child' :laugh:) I try different things on different days and I'm not sure it's doing me any favours I think I'm going to need to set him up for success more to keep the commands sharp :) Plus I think I'm repeating too often with Weez, I should probably stop being so lazy and go over to him more often

When I say flank commands it means "go in a circle until I say stop", I have a different command for picking up sheep and bringing them in. So I only repeat the flank when they are starting to fall in or start going "really? are we done with this yet? There's some sheep poo over there I could be eating". The ones I really end up repeating are stops and downs, which is probably just a matter of more training to get those commands overriding their instincts better as you say. But at least in training I've got some experienced feedback, it's more their "real world" obedience I am trying to tweak for maximum efficiency :)

I had a "wake-up call" on the weekend when my dog lost his cool with a breakaway sheep - absolutely out of character! When I'd recovered from my shock, I realized that it was caused by my poor handling and management but exacerbated because I lacked confidence in my ability to control him from a distance in that situation. I also realized that I'd become sloppy and complacent about control with all my dogs. I went back out there and insisted that he stayed by my side as we walked across the paddock, rather than creeping ahead as he tends to. I did 10 minutes of walk up, back away drills in the yard, then back to the small paddock. After this, his casts were cleaner than they have been for months, and he was driving and flanking on drive in a manner that we've never achieved before.

I've now drawn up a list of goals for my dogs. They will already drop on command as a group and recall as a group when running in the paddock, heel individually off-lead while the other dogs run around, and hold long down stays (up to half an hour) individually and as a group... usually in the comfort of the house. I now want them 1) recall individually "against the flow" of the other dogs during runs, 2) reliably wait to be invited (individually) through some doors and gates, 3) walk individually on a loose lead (not heeling) while the other dogs run past (specifically during their morning crazy-run) and 4) go through doors and up to bed on first command both individually and (longer term goal) "against the flow" of the other dogs.

My older BC's drops are reliable off-sheep, but not 100% on sheep. So, the next time he ignores a "drop" during herding, I'm going to just let the sheep go and work on control. I'll use a method I've found effective in other situations when dogs ignored a drop command or responded slowly.

I walk towards the dog (bossily) and send/take him back to exactly where he was when I said drop. If the dog tries to stop short, I insist on him going all the way back. If achievable, I prefer to send him rather than physically re-position him (or her). I believe the dog learns more when he chooses to comply. Drop him where the original command was given, wait a short time (reinforce with stay, if necessary), then walk up, give a restrained tactile reward, then release. Immediately call the dog to heel and do a series of quick, brusque "heel" (few steps), "drop" (wait a few seconds), "heel" (few steps), etc. At the end of the sequence give big (jackpot) tactile and physical rewards (I don't use food rewards at this stage, as communication is a big part of the process and the verbal/tactile reward relieves any tension.) Then we practice some random walking around and dropping at a distance and I randomly reward with verbal (from a distance) or tactile or food rewards (with the dog holding the stay while I walk up.)

Now how do I train the cat not to walk on the keyboard?

[MishB]

Interesting poll!

I try not to but its a hard habit to break.