Running A-frames

[sheena]

I thought I would give the "box" method a try on teaching running A-Frame contacts as I am not real keen on 2o2o for the A-Frame. I don't think that position is very good for the dogs body. Has anyone else used this method & if so, how did you go with it?? I have done the first bit ie. shaping the dogs to walk into the box.....all four feet in the box & looking ahead (not at me) I click & throw the treat forward, so they learn to keep going through it. I've now moved the box out of the lounge room & onto the grass, but havn't put a verbal cue on it yet. I am a little bit "stuck" as to what to do next & feel that maybe the next step is to put it onto the A-Frame in it's lowest position.

For anyone wanting to know what "the box" is...it is a poly-pipe frame the same shape & size as the contact area on the A-Frame.

Edited April 29, 2012 by sheena

[Kavik]

Have you watched the DVD? The DVD has step by step instructions on how to teach it.

You want to get the pounce into and out of the box, not just a step, and do it in various positions (in front of box, next to box, behind box).

And then add the jump grid to simulate the striding on the A-Frame, and proof that.

Then you can add to contact area of A-Frame and back chain it.

ETA: I watched DVD, and did the groundwork, but in the end decided to teach 2o2o because I do both ANKC and ADAA and the A-Frames are different sizes, and this combined with the experience of a friend who had taught this method and does both codes, it is hard to get the dog to do the same striding and hit the contact area on different sized A-Frames.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Kavik

[J...]

Half-way through it with my 6 yo, so far so good. Once it's done and proofed in the ring for 6 or so months and I'm still happy with it, will be putting my youngster through it as well.

You need to watch the DVD, there is this section first which is the basis for everything you do on the A-frame:

This is the part that has taken the longest so far, as it's where the real proofing came in. My biggest hurdle was getting her to understand that I still needed her to stride collected through the box even if I did lead out 15m past the end of the box. It's more extreme proofing that is shown in the DVD but I don't have easy AF access to be able to work on this stuff.

This is the reason I like it so much, 80% of it can be worked on the ground before it goes on the A-frame, and it can be fully revised on the ground as well.

Darcy had her 4th session on the AF last week at training, on a lowered A-frame, I threw everything at her (FX, RX, awful angles, lead outs, running way ahead and with a heap of speed out of a tunnel) and she missed the striding once but still hit the contact.

Edited to add: this was her first AF session

Edited April 28, 2012 by Jess.

[sheena]

Jess...when did you introduce the verbal cue?? Thanks for the videos. I wasn't sure if at this stage I should be running with the dog & cuing it or still standing still. I havn't seen Rachel's video on the "box", I only have a print out that my instructor gave me at training. We havn't had training now for four weeks because of the rain But I think my instructor is new to this as well, & we thought we would give it a go training our up & coming new stars. I am always open to new ideas. Watching Jess's videos, I think we are up to the stage of adding jumps, lead outs etc. I will try to get hold of the DVD ....what is the name of it. I have her "Bridging the Gap" one.

[J...]

I built a heap of value for the box, had her striding through it and then started proofing it by adding lateral distance, leading out from it and expecting to her to drive into it with me behind. So I wanted to be able to put the box down and have her run to it from anywhere once released, then I put the cue on it and then introduced the jump grid.

It's Rachel Sanders Reliable Running A-frames - have a look on youtube, there is some good info on there but don't be shocked at how much work some people put into it. I figure if Darcy misses the occasional AF contact because I don't have the ability to do that, I can cope. :laugh:

[kelpiechick]

You absolutely need to watch the dvd. The method is also outlined step by step in Clean Run May 2008, but the dvd makes these instructions a little clearer. If at all possible I would recommend getting a back copy of the magazine if you don't have it and using both. BTW, verbal cue is recommended when you are happy with the pounce into the box.

I have now (attempted) to teach the method to 2 of my dogs. It was an absolute breeze with my younger kelpie - and I hesitated because he is a tall, long striding 600 dog and I never thought he would be able to handle the compression, but he did so with ease once he got the hang of the groundwork. (Which did take him quite a few months as I was careful not to move on until I was really happy with it) So far in competition he has missed an A Frame twice, both times because of the striding on his entry. It is still in effect a stride regulation method and the downside relies very much on the striding being correct on the upside (eg: 2 hits up, 2 hits down) If I don't get the 2 hits going up then I find it effects where he hits coming down which may take him over the colour (although very rarely and I am very happy with the method with him)

I am currently retraining my young BC from a stopped contact and have had a lot more problems with the method (and am still pulling my hair out currently, LOL) Her groundwork was wonderful, way better than my kelpie, and I had her to the point where she could bounce into the box from just about anywhere, and with me doing any distraction when running that I could possibly think of. Problem came when it was ready to go onto A Frame. I actually started with the A Frame spread out on ground under the grid and as soon as she felt board, her 'bouncing' footwork disappeared and she went back to running along the grid, which would pretty much resemble what she was doing before, with the stop on the end. (Similar footwork but no stop)

Put it on lowered AF to see if it made any difference but it didn't.

After reviewing as much footage of the method on You Tube that I could find, I decided to go with it anyway, so her criteria is to hit inside the box with front paw and then to continue on running through it.

We are almost on full height AFrame but I am not really happy with it and kind of feel stuck with whether I continue or not. She is way too creepy coming down the downside for my liking (although she is still pretty fast and is averaging 1.2 seconds when I time it) She also seems to be reacting to my movement a lot more than she was with 2on 2off and if I run full steam ahead (and I mean really run) then she usually jumps over the box - performed with me not moving at all she is 100% accurate) I have now gone back to just walking or jogging to proof that first. As it has become a 'mismashed' method now, I am also concerned that the criteria of the box is not really clear for her, so have some decisions to make over the next few weeks.

So my experiences would be that a lot of it depends on what footwork is 'natural' for your dog - the kelpie bounces a lot and comes up stairs that way, so I think for him the method was a lot more natural and therefore presented few difficulties. BC's creepy footwork is a lot more ingrained and I don't think I can break it - so I need to work with what is more natural for her and the method is not as successful. Sorry this is so long and hope it helps.

[smisch]

I am teaching den slowly in my own time using a hoop at the bottom, he drives on through it.. I like this better as I have taught him 2o2o and so he understands the concept so much more of you go to the bottom of the aframe...

It's a long slow process

[sheena]

Kelpie Chick...thanks for all that info. It's the extract from Clean Run 2008 that she has given me to follow, but I must try & get hold of the DVD. It will be interesting to see what success we have with it, as the older dog has already been running contacts for a couple of years now. She is pretty good & hardly ever misses. She used to miss a lot of contacts till we started training her with the AF down low & treating at the end for 2o 2o, & gradually raising it & now she doesn't do the 2o2o at the bottom (I don't really want her to),but she always hits the contact regardless. So for her, it is just an exercise. Different for the new boy, though as he hasn't done much AF to date, so he is almost a blank slate.

Smisch....I was wondering & thinking about some sort of hoop or cover that you could gradually fade out. I love looking at new ideas, although I know I should stick with the one method.

[smisch]

I fade it out through moving it slowly away so it's still there for him to go through. By then add equipment to it and remove the hoop so den is driving to the next piece of equipment.. Lik I said we haven't fully finished training it or working it as its a slow process but we may finish it one day lol

[sheena]

Have you caught Susan Garret's 3 part Webinar on Contact Training Contact Training

[sheena]

What's the advantage of using the "box" method over stride regulators??

[smisch]

Stride regulators use muscel memory where as the box teaches the dog to think about their footwork as they actually have to place their feet in the box to gain reward.. The dogs have to give you a behavior to achieve reward where as the stride regulator just teaches the dog to adjust their stride length.

Does that make sense... I can't explain it too well lol

[Vickie]

I would say that the advantage is that the box method puts less pressure on joints as it requires less repetition over the AF for training.

So far...the box method seems to be producing more reliable results than stride regulators too.

[canine fun sports]

I would say that the advantage is that the box method puts less pressure on joints as it requires less repetition over the AF for training.

So far...the box method seems to be producing more reliable results than stride regulators too.

Murphy was trained with the box, with advice from Ronda Carter, and before the video was available. We also used stride regualtors. Her scramble was fantastic, but we started competition, with the different surfaces on the scrambles, her footwork fell apart. At first, she maintained criteria on the rubber chip surfaces and only had problems on clipperier surfaces, but after a while it rather fell apart. I retrained for a leap over the top using a stirde reulator into a fast scramble into a 2on2off position. I do not think I would train another running scramble until the surfaces on the scrambles are pretty much all rubber chip.

It is also possible that I did not concentrate on the pounce into the box as a more deliberate behaviour.

Cheers,

[sheena]

After a couple of weeks of shaping the box on the ground, we have moved it to a lowered A-Frame & the results with the two dogs were completely different. Bindi went straight back into 2o2o position, so I think I will leave her with that behaviour (SHE is quite proud of her 2o2o :)) because when she is running a full A-Frame she tends to run it anyway, & hardly ever misses the contact. The puppy has the hang of it, so we will continue with the box method with him. We have added a stride regulator just before the apex. Now to get more speed into him

The link to the video..

Edited May 2, 2012 by sheena

[megan_]

sheena - sorry to go OT, but I was always told that to teach running A-Frames I'd really need one at home as it needed to be practiced at home. I don't have the space for one so I've taught 2o2o - I'm not a fan of it due the the force that gets put on the shoulders. To teach the box method reliably, do you need to have an AFrame at home?

[sheena]

sheena - sorry to go OT, but I was always told that to teach running A-Frames I'd really need one at home as it needed to be practiced at home. I don't have the space for one so I've taught 2o2o - I'm not a fan of it due the the force that gets put on the shoulders. To teach the box method reliably, do you need to have an AFrame at home?

The first part of this exercise can be done in the lounge room, you just need to build a box out of poly pipe, the same dimensions as the contact area of the A-Frame. Then you move the box outside & proof it on the ground. But after that stage, you would really need access to an A-Frame...one that can be lowered right down. I've decided only to teach the new boy this method & am leaving the old girl with her 2o2o which she converts to a running contact when on a full height frame anyway....I just release her as soon as she has hit the contact before she moves into 2o2o position. Problem with this is that she slows down in anticipation of having to go into position. :)

[megan_]

Thanks Sheena. Having finally got 2o2o working, I'm a bit scared to tinker with it. I might try to shape the box though and see where we land up.

[sheena]

Even though Bindi reverted back to 2o2o when we lowered the AF, looking at the videos, she was far more precise where she put her feet (because of the box.) It will be interesting to see how she goes as we gradually increase the height. Megan, do you have access to an AF, like at Training. Then you could do all the proofing at home on the ground & take the box to training & slip it on the AF.

[megan_]

I have access to one at training (at least once a week)