A Friend In Need.

[blueberrymobile]

Hello all!

I'm hoping to get some honest opinions about a bit of a touchy issue, and I hope I don't offend or raise the hackles of anyone by bringing it up :).

One of my friend's bought a border collie puppy off a registered breeder up near us in Townsville, and just last week it's been diagnosed with hip dysplasia. Since it is my friend's dog, I'm not 100% sure of all the details, but I know the parents were tested for HD and the like. I've been reading some other topics on these kind of issue, I know that breeders can't guarantee a perfect pooch and that no matter all the testing, bad luck happens. But, there's a few other things that seem a bit fishy that I wanted a few opinions on.

Currently the puppy is about 5 months old, but when she was around 12 weeks, she fell and broke her leg. From what I gathered, it wasn't a big fall and it was a really bad break for such a relatively little accident. My friend was obviously upset, especially since a friend was watching the puppy for about 15 minutes when it happened, but she paid for the care and didn't really think too much about it. Until a week later, she heard from another woman who purchased a puppy from the same litter that her puppy had also broken it's leg. Same story, small fall and surprisingly bad break.

Now, just a few months later, she's hit with having to pay another huge vet bill to pay for her pup's surgery. From what I've read, I know that there can be environmental factors that can lead to hip dysplasia, including injury when young, but her vet doesn't seem to think that it was the leading cause. Especially since for a month or so, her puppy was bed-ridden, and the months after that it was building its muscles back up in its leg so she was being very careful not to over-exert her. It seems likely that if it was because of the injury, it would have taken a little longer to manifest, with the injury having to effect her walking and such over a more prolonged period of time than a few months to have such lasting damage. She's contacted the breeder to let her know, and she told her flat out that it's my friend's fault and that her breeding has nothing to do with it. She has since removed my friend from her Facebook. (I do not know the conversation they had, it is possible my friend was upset and not the most polite)

The other people my friend knows who purchased puppies from the same breeder are going to be getting them x-rayed asap, and I will let you know the results when I learn, but right now, I'd just like to get some opinions. I can accept bad luck with a litter, that not all of them can be perfect and that we can't expect miracles from breeders, but with there being two puppies shown to have weak bones and as well as one case of HD, does it seem that more is going on than just bad luck? Also, the breeder's reaction seems a bit harsh, even if I believed my dogs were not at fault, I would still say I would be double checking my dogs and other puppies of the litter to make sure it wasn't a wide-spread issue.

Please, I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want to make sure that the best course of action is taken with all of this.

Thank you so much!

[Fordogs]

My first question to you would have to be was the Hip Dysplasia diagnosed by their local vet or was it sent away for assessment to a radiology specialist eg Dr Roger Lavelle or Dr J L Richardson?

Not denigrating local vets but most are NOT that great at assessing hip x-rays.

[blueberrymobile]

My first question to you would have to be was the Hip Dysplasia diagnosed by their local vet or was it sent away for assessment to a radiology specialist eg Dr Roger Lavelle or Dr J L Richardson?

Not denigrating local vets but most are NOT that great at assessing hip x-rays.

No, I do believe it was just her usual vet. I could be wrong, since it did take awhile to get the diagnosis, but I think it's only been a local vet. I may see if she wants to get a second opinion--do you think someone at JCU Vet (Townville) would be qualified? Since I found that one of the vets you suggested is in Vic, and the other one I couldn't find :-/.

I must admit, that's a bit disappointing to know though. From what I've read, and just deduced from listening to reports, Hip Dysplasia is one of the most researched, well-documented, and prevalent canine conditions. Because of that, you'd think vets, local or specialized, should be able to diagnosis it in an instant, but I guess this isn't a perfect world. Also, thanks for the names, if we can't find someone closer I'll be sure to recommend :)

[Fordogs]

Blueberry,

As a breeder I would only accept a qualified radiology's diagnosis of HD.

Only last September I had a vet diagnose HD on an 8 month old puppy I sold and the buyer had her euthanaised on the spot. I managed to get a photo of the xray and had it assessed by Roger Lavelle to find the puppy had a fantastic score of a total of 6.

If I was her I would send the xray off to be assessed.

[Guest donatella]

Blueberry,

As a breeder I would only accept a qualified radiology's diagnosis of HD.

Only last September I had a vet diagnose HD on an 8 month old puppy I sold and the buyer had her euthanaised on the spot. I managed to get a photo of the xray and had it assessed by Roger Lavelle to find the puppy had a fantastic score of a total of 6.

If I was her I would send the xray off to be assessed.

What a waste of a life, poor pup

[Rebanne]

at 5 months of age the pup is too young to have HD diagnosed unless the vet used the PennHip method which is doubtful. Did they even do x-rays? If so did they know how to position the pup correctly? Simple falls can cause bad breaks cause while they look simple or small to us they weren't.

I'd be getting a 2nd opinion before doing anything.

[blueberrymobile]

Thank you very much, all that is good to know :D. I'll be sure to pass all this info on, and will keep you updated!

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

Hello all!

She's contacted the breeder to let her know, and she told her flat out that it's my friend's fault and that her breeding has nothing to do with it. She has since removed my friend from her Facebook. (I do not know the conversation they had, it is possible my friend was upset and not the most polite)

The other people my friend knows who purchased puppies from the same breeder are going to be getting them x-rayed asap, and I will let you know the results when I learn, but right now, I'd just like to get some opinions. I can accept bad luck with a litter, that not all of them can be perfect and that we can't expect miracles from breeders, but with there being two puppies shown to have weak bones and as well as one case of HD, does it seem that more is going on than just bad luck? Also, the breeder's reaction seems a bit harsh, even if I believed my dogs were not at fault, I would still say I would be double checking my dogs and other puppies of the litter to make sure it wasn't a wide-spread issue.

Please, I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want to make sure that the best course of action is taken with all of this.

Thank you so much!

To me, such a defensive sounding reaction isn't a good sign. As you say your friend may also have been upset, but breeders ought to take this sort of thing seriously, even if they suspect that it was environmental and not genetic. Did the litter come with a health guarantee?

Hopefully some further x-rays will shed some light... but I am sorry for your friend's pup, it is a tough condition for such a highly energetic breed. Best of luck.

[dancinbcs]

Border Collies are very good at doing damage to themselves. Accidents and injuries are very common in puppies and young adults because they have no sense of self preservation. The puppy having to rest after a broken leg would affect the way the hips are growing and how tight the ligaments are that hold the hips.

Lots of average vets like to diagnose HD in puppies if there is any laxity in the hips so they can do very expensive, so called "preventative" surgery when in fact the only way HD can be properly diagnosed at that age is by having PennHip x-rays done and having them sent off to a qualified reader. HD is normally not diagnosed by standard x-rays until a dog is 12 months old when the joints have finished forming and then the diagnosis can only be made by a specialist. Reputable vets may suggest the hips need to investigated by a specialist but they do not ever make the diagnosis themselves.

If someone rang me and accused me of breeding a 5 month old puppy that had been diagnosed with HD by the local vet I would not be at all impressed or believe it. If the parents have good hip scores there is nothing much else the breeder can do. It is still possible to get bad hips from parents with good hips but is fairly unusual in registered Borders.

Edited April 24, 2012 by dancinbcs

[DobieMum]

I'm not naming vets but it was one in Townsville and it happened quite a few years ago, but I had one of my boys in for a desexing and while he was under I asked the vet to X-Ray him for HD. The vets forgot and so then asked me to run him outside and watched him running and then pronounced 100% yep, he was going to have issues. My boy had just been desexed, do you think you'd run properly in that instance. That was the last time I went back there.

[mumof4girls]

Go figure... I shake my head, is it just me or do "some" vets come across as money grabbers?? Maybe I am becoming synical ...

I'm not naming vets but it was one in Townsville and it happened quite a few years ago, but I had one of my boys in for a desexing and while he was under I asked the vet to X-Ray him for HD. The vets forgot and so then asked me to run him outside and watched him running and then pronounced 100% yep, he was going to have issues. My boy had just been desexed, do you think you'd run properly in that instance. That was the last time I went back there.

[blueberrymobile]

Hello again,

So sorry for taking so long to get back to you. **Sigh** it didn't turn out very well and I was rather disappointed in my friend, so I haven't been talking with her much and only just realized I never passed the info on. So, she ignored everything I sent her and had the surgery done about a week or so after I posted on here. She posted up a picture of her dog after the surgery, so sad, so many stitches. Apparently nothing I said made an impact, and it really frustrated and annoyed me as I spent a long time reading into things for her and she never even acknowledged it.

Part of what made me think to post on here is that she just posted up that now her dog doesn't walk properly. She rolls her knuckles under instead of walking on her pads and the vet says it's irreparable damaged that was a risk of the surgery. It makes me so angry and frustrated that she never double checked that the stupid surgery was necessary and now her poor dog is paying the price.

Also, I tried to look up who she bought her puppy from, and now that I've looked into it more, I find it highly unlikely that she was a fully registered breeder--I don't know if my friend lied about it or didn't realize it. All she has is a very small Facebook page, no information anywhere else, and nothing about being registered.

Sorry to have wasted all of your time over what turned out to be based on false information and didn't end that happily. Thank you all for your information and support, it's very much appreciated. I now at least know more if something like this ever comes up with my dog, which is at least one benefit from all of this.

Thanks again.

[persephone]

She rolls her knuckles under instead of walking on her pads and the vet says it's irreparable damaged that was a risk of the surgery. It makes me so angry and frustrated that she never double checked that the stupid surgery was necessary and now her poor dog is paying the price.

:(

AFAIK ... and I am only posting about what I've seen some knuckling over can improve with lots and lots of work...but worse case scenario .... nerve damage, and loss of sensation, knuckling/dragging may lead to skin being rubbed off, and all sorts of infections, etc .....and probable amputation

If your friend is concerned about this outcome, and needs to make decisions , I would advise a full assessment be done at a university vet hospital

Edited May 30, 2012 by persephone

[trojka]

She rolls her knuckles under instead of walking on her pads and the vet says it's irreparable damaged that was a risk of the surgery. It makes me so angry and frustrated that she never double checked that the stupid surgery was necessary and now her poor dog is paying the price.

:(

AFAIK ... and I am only posting about what I've seen some knuckling over can improve with lots and lots of work...but worse case scenario .... nerve damage, and loss of sensation, knuckling/dragging may lead to skin being rubbed off, and all sorts of infections, etc .....and probable amputation

If your friend is concerned about this outcome, and needs to make decisions , I would advise a full assessment be done at Werribee vet hospital

That's a fair way to travel from Townsville.....is there anywhere closer she could go to? Although it doesn't sound like she listens to any advice..... poor dog

[persephone]

Oh..didn't read the thingy...apologies. edited!!

[tdierikx]

I have a dog who has mobility issues that include knuckling over... and I can attest that with time and patience, the dog can be trained to adjust their walking pattern to avoid the knuckling.

My dog's issues are caused by a scar on her brain and affects all 4 limbs, she has little feeling in all her legs, so she had to learn to walk properly instead of it being an instinctual thing. She will be 2 in September and apart from her funny gait, she runs and plays just like any other dog... we say that she doesn't realise that she's "broken", and she just loves to live life to the fullest anyway.

T.