Where Do I Stand With My Breeder

[melstar-36]

That I am abit confused over, my breeder reassured me she was patella sound, does this mean that no other dogs to there knowledge has the condition, if there is no gentic testing, will I ever know whether it was genetic, I'd hate to tell her breeder that and it be something that has arisen at home. I suppose the specialist will inform me more, I'm just anxious to know

[Gretel]

That I am abit confused over, my breeder reassured me she was patella sound, does this mean that no other dogs to there knowledge has the condition, if there is no gentic testing, will I ever know whether it was genetic, I'd hate to tell her breeder that and it be something that has arisen at home. I suppose the specialist will inform me more, I'm just anxious to know

A puppy can have good patellas at their puppy check and they can loosen as the pup grows. My Lacey was very sound as a pup but at 14 months old had dodgy knees The vet explained to me that as the pup grows and their angulation changes problems can arise. She never showed any symptoms. She is now 7 years old and never misses a beat. When she was last checked one knee was slightly lose but they other was good.

[melstar-36]

Lacey is a gorgeous name, can I ask whether you had the operation done or tryed other methods to help improve her mobility? The vet told me both knees, one at a time, each with 6 weeks recovery time with no or little movement, that's 3 months all together!! It would be so hard on her

[Ozstar]

That I am abit confused over, my breeder reassured me she was patella sound, does this mean that no other dogs to there knowledge has the condition, if there is no gentic testing, will I ever know whether it was genetic, I'd hate to tell her breeder that and it be something that has arisen at home. I suppose the specialist will inform me more, I'm just anxious to know

These are all good question and you should be writing them down so you can ask the specialist.

I would not be stressing to much until you see the specialist, a lot of vets really have no idea what they are talking about and have done more damage than good. while at the specialst ask them if they can recommend a good vet near you as you to not feel comfortable with the vet you had.

You have been given some good advise re diet.

Wishing you all the best.

Leanne

[Jed]

That I am abit confused over, my breeder reassured me she was patella sound, does this mean that no other dogs to there knowledge has the condition, if there is no gentic testing, will I ever know whether it was genetic, I'd hate to tell her breeder that and it be something that has arisen at home. I suppose the specialist will inform me more, I'm just anxious to know

Melstar, it is autosomal, you can google that. I have 4 generations in my kennel clear of LP. I have a dog with wonderful patellas. My vet feels him up every visit, and says "oh these patellas are to die for".

Four years ago, he sired one pup with LP. He has never thrown another.

Your dog may have been checked by a vet at 8 weeks, and the patellas were fine ... but as she grew, the problem developed.

It could be an environmental problem, not hereditary. All you can do with pups is have the vet manually check them, but things can change.

You can't blame the breeder. You probably shouldn't blame yourself too.

Because Cavs get such bad press, vets are inclined to diagnose things which the dog may not have. I once had an emergency vet tell me my pregnant girl had an "MVD murmur". I suggested it was a temporary stress murmur, he said it was MVD, I told him the future for the pups looked bleak. And that the bitch had been heart checked clear 5 months previously by a cardiologist. He went and got his "better stethscope" and surprise, surprise, no murmur.

And that is why you should always speak to your breeder first, for advice and perhaps the name of a more experienced vet in the breed.

Don't worry, wait and see what the second vet says.

[Jumabaar]

We have been to a few shows but I only watch, I have so much more to learn before I jump in, instead I stay at home and watch my crufts DVDs and hope one day I can play with the big boys. Lol. And Evan though she hadn't been shown doesn't make her poor quality, she's lived up to all my expectations and has the best temperament. One off the questions on the breeders exam was- best practical advice for selection a foundation bitch- a. Use your first bitch B. use your first title winning bitch C. Consider type and temperament D. Consider wins... The answer c, my girl doesn't need to be Evan though I'd love her to be, a champion in the show ring to be considered good breeding stock. But she will be desexed now and I'll have to dream off competing in the neuter class now :)

It doesn't matter how much you love this bitch and how good her temperament may be, she may not have the conformation

to be a brood bitch.

Why would you de sex on vets say so when the vet may not be fully qualified to diagnose this condition.

Maybe if you told us how this bitch has been fed we may be able to help you more as diet plays a big part in the bone development. :)

You can't show her in neuter class!!!! She has a fault that without repair would be disqualifyable. That means that you have surgically altered the dog to make it be able to show, against the rules and ethically wrong. Im really sorry for you, you are going to have to come to the same realisation that we did with our bitch that had the same problems. She too was bought as a foundation bitch, and we were devastated when it occured, but you have to come to terms with the fact that her show career no matter what class is OVER, as is breeding her, and as you are getting her desexed you are being responsible and realise this. We have known of situations where a responsible breeder has replaced dogs that have the same issues, and your breeder may do the same, and give you the chance of your breeding and showing dreams, but with this bitch its game over.

I'm only new to showing - is it the part in the Diseases and Abnomalities (Section 17 in the Dogs NSW rules on shows) that says "normal development" that this is covered under? (where you mentioned it is against the rules) It explicitly talks about contagious diseases but nothing like this. Does this mean that every exhibitor should be able to produce a certificate that the dog is clear if it is common in the breed?

I am actually a little confused as well. Since I have seen the SC's bitch and she is unsymptomatic so she can certainly be shown without any surgical alteration and still be sound.

SC I am guessing Tibby thought that to be have a sound dog you would have to operate to correct it and that you would then show which I think there is a rule about.

[Gretel]

Lacey is a gorgeous name, can I ask whether you had the operation done or tryed other methods to help improve her mobility? The vet told me both knees, one at a time, each with 6 weeks recovery time with no or little movement, that's 3 months all together!! It would be so hard on her

I've never done anything special for Lacey - her knees just improved a bit as she developed. Another girl I had many years ago was diagnosed with a luxating patella by a vet I was working for. She'd never shown any symptoms. The vet insisted she needed surgery. I took her to my usual vet who said it wasn't too bad at all and she didn't think it needed an op. She is now 11 and is fine. She has a bit of arthritis but nothing too bad. Personally I wouldn't put a dog through the op if they only have a mild case. It is a big operation.

[Bilbo Baggins]

And the vet simply fiddled around with her knees and come to that conclusion within seconds, it shocked the hell out of me

That is not sufficient examination IMO

[Topoftheheap]

We have been to a few shows but I only watch, I have so much more to learn before I jump in, instead I stay at home and watch my crufts DVDs and hope one day I can play with the big boys. Lol. And Evan though she hadn't been shown doesn't make her poor quality, she's lived up to all my expectations and has the best temperament. One off the questions on the breeders exam was- best practical advice for selection a foundation bitch- a. Use your first bitch B. use your first title winning bitch C. Consider type and temperament D. Consider wins... The answer c, my girl doesn't need to be Evan though I'd love her to be, a champion in the show ring to be considered good breeding stock. But she will be desexed now and I'll have to dream off competing in the neuter class now :)

It doesn't matter how much you love this bitch and how good her temperament may be, she may not have the conformation

to be a brood bitch.

Why would you de sex on vets say so when the vet may not be fully qualified to diagnose this condition.

Maybe if you told us how this bitch has been fed we may be able to help you more as diet plays a big part in the bone development. :)

You can't show her in neuter class!!!! She has a fault that without repair would be disqualifyable. That means that you have surgically altered the dog to make it be able to show, against the rules and ethically wrong. Im really sorry for you, you are going to have to come to the same realisation that we did with our bitch that had the same problems. She too was bought as a foundation bitch, and we were devastated when it occured, but you have to come to terms with the fact that her show career no matter what class is OVER, as is breeding her, and as you are getting her desexed you are being responsible and realise this. We have known of situations where a responsible breeder has replaced dogs that have the same issues, and your breeder may do the same, and give you the chance of your breeding and showing dreams, but with this bitch its game over.

I'm only new to showing - is it the part in the Diseases and Abnomalities (Section 17 in the Dogs NSW rules on shows) that says "normal development" that this is covered under? (where you mentioned it is against the rules) It explicitly talks about contagious diseases but nothing like this. Does this mean that every exhibitor should be able to produce a certificate that the dog is clear if it is common in the breed?

I am actually a little confused as well. Since I have seen the SC's bitch and she is unsymptomatic so she can certainly be shown without any surgical alteration and still be sound.

SC I am guessing Tibby thought that to be have a sound dog you would have to operate to correct it and that you would then show which I think there is a rule about.

I am totally confused now, if the dog is unsymptomatic, and sound then she does not have luxating patella's - because there is no symptomatic free when it comes to patella luxation. there are two types: one where the kneecap pops out and does not return to the groove, and another where it pops in and out repeatedly, and the joint does return to the groove intermittently. these can be graded for severity. If the dog's kneecap is not popping out at all then it isn't a luxating patella. But if the diagnosis is correct, this is a SEVERE structural fault in a dog, affecting the soundness of the dog so therefore should not in any judges opinion to 'I am clearly in the opinion that this dog is of outstanding merit, as to be worthy to qualify for the title of champion' (read off my dog's cc certificates) so therefore a dog with a severe structural fault should not be competeting for that title. As for rules regarding showing you cannot show a dog that has been permenantly altered for the show ring, with the exclusion of the neutering in the neuter class obviously. For the dog to move soundly it would need surgical intervention of some kind to hold its joint in place. This would be like showing a monorchid dog with an implant. Or a HD dog being shown with no femoral head after surgery for HD. You have permanently altered the structure of the dog, which is cheating, no matter what way you put it.

Im sorry for the OP, I have been in the situation, and I hope a specialist can draw more light on the situation in regards to diagnosis, and treatment, and I hope the breeder is responsible and does what she feels is the right thing by her buyers in a horrible situation like this. For her sake I hope the vet, as quite often in these circumstances, is WRONG, and all this discussion is for nothing!!! If the dog truly is unsymptomatic, and moves correctly, then I would highly doubt the diagnosis given by the vet. A kneecap does not pop in and out without some affect on movement. Most commonly the dog hops and cannot straighten the leg. Sometimes it only shows as crabbing, which we all know can be caused by a variety of other reasons.

To the OP, and the genetic mode of inheritance, and cause: Patella luxation can be caused by a trauma, but that usually only occurs in one leg. It can also be caused by excessive weight. As for the breeder's knowledge, there is no genetic testing, so if she have no symptoms in the dogs she owns, then this will be as big a shock to her as it is to you. Only 25% of the affected dogs puppies are carriers, and they don't show ANY symptoms at all. Patella's are known as autosomal so the exact mode of transmission is still a mystery. It could be something WAAAY back as I have said before, but if it is both kneecaps, it most likely is genetic, but that doesn't mean the breeder is an evil, irresponsible, person. It may be the first puppy that she is aware of.

[stonecutter]

Thanks tibbiesby2 :) our local vet said there was a problem but she seems to gait nicely (except when she decides to chase a bird in the ring - oops!) all the info you've provided on how the genetics works is very interesting (LP is a big issue amongst JS in general and I'm always keen to learn more) :)

[Topoftheheap]

We have been to a few shows but I only watch, I have so much more to learn before I jump in, instead I stay at home and watch my crufts DVDs and hope one day I can play with the big boys. Lol. And Evan though she hadn't been shown doesn't make her poor quality, she's lived up to all my expectations and has the best temperament. One off the questions on the breeders exam was- best practical advice for selection a foundation bitch- a. Use your first bitch B. use your first title winning bitch C. Consider type and temperament D. Consider wins... The answer c, my girl doesn't need to be Evan though I'd love her to be, a champion in the show ring to be considered good breeding stock. But she will be desexed now and I'll have to dream off competing in the neuter class now :)

It doesn't matter how much you love this bitch and how good her temperament may be, she may not have the conformation

to be a brood bitch.

Why would you de sex on vets say so when the vet may not be fully qualified to diagnose this condition.

Maybe if you told us how this bitch has been fed we may be able to help you more as diet plays a big part in the bone development. :)

You can't show her in neuter class!!!! She has a fault that without repair would be disqualifyable. That means that you have surgically altered the dog to make it be able to show, against the rules and ethically wrong. Im really sorry for you, you are going to have to come to the same realisation that we did with our bitch that had the same problems. She too was bought as a foundation bitch, and we were devastated when it occured, but you have to come to terms with the fact that her show career no matter what class is OVER, as is breeding her, and as you are getting her desexed you are being responsible and realise this. We have known of situations where a responsible breeder has replaced dogs that have the same issues, and your breeder may do the same, and give you the chance of your breeding and showing dreams, but with this bitch its game over.

I'm only new to showing - is it the part in the Diseases and Abnomalities (Section 17 in the Dogs NSW rules on shows) that says "normal development" that this is covered under? (where you mentioned it is against the rules) It explicitly talks about contagious diseases but nothing like this. Does this mean that every exhibitor should be able to produce a certificate that the dog is clear if it is common in the breed?

I am actually a little confused as well. Since I have seen the SC's bitch and she is unsymptomatic so she can certainly be shown without any surgical alteration and still be sound.

SC I am guessing Tibby thought that to be have a sound dog you would have to operate to correct it and that you would then show which I think there is a rule about.

I am totally confused now, if the dog is unsymptomatic, and sound then she does not have luxating patella's - because there is no symptomatic free when it comes to patella luxation. there are two types: one where the kneecap pops out and does not return to the groove, and another where it pops in and out repeatedly, and the joint does return to the groove intermittently. these can be graded for severity. If the dog's kneecap is not popping out at all then it isn't a luxating patella. But if the diagnosis is correct, this is a SEVERE structural fault in a dog, affecting the soundness of the dog so therefore should not in any judges opinion to 'I am clearly in the opinion that this dog is of outstanding merit, as to be worthy to qualify for the title of champion' (read off my dog's cc certificates) so therefore a dog with a severe structural fault should not be competeting for that title. As for rules regarding showing you cannot show a dog that has been permenantly altered for the show ring, with the exclusion of the neutering in the neuter class obviously. For the dog to move soundly it would need surgical intervention of some kind to hold its joint in place. This would be like showing a monorchid dog with an implant. Or a HD dog being shown with no femoral head after surgery for HD. You have permanently altered the structure of the dog, which is cheating, no matter what way you put it.

Im sorry for the OP, I have been in the situation, and I hope a specialist can draw more light on the situation in regards to diagnosis, and treatment, and I hope the breeder is responsible and does what she feels is the right thing by her buyers in a horrible situation like this. For her sake I hope the vet, as quite often in these circumstances, is WRONG, and all this discussion is for nothing!!! If the dog truly is unsymptomatic, and moves correctly, then I would highly doubt the diagnosis given by the vet. A kneecap does not pop in and out without some affect on movement. Most commonly the dog hops and cannot straighten the leg. Sometimes it only shows as crabbing, which we all know can be caused by a variety of other reasons.

To the OP, and the genetic mode of inheritance, and cause: Patella luxation can be caused by a trauma, but that usually only occurs in one leg. It can also be caused by excessive weight. As for the breeder's knowledge, there is no genetic testing, so if she have no symptoms in the dogs she owns, then this will be as big a shock to her as it is to you. Only 25% of the affected dogs puppies are carriers, and they don't show ANY symptoms at all. Patella's are known as autosomal so the exact mode of transmission is still a mystery. It could be something WAAAY back as I have said before, but if it is both kneecaps, it most likely is genetic, but that doesn't mean the breeder is an evil, irresponsible, person. It may be the first puppy that she is aware of.

If your really keen on showing the dog, the only way to do it, is to keep the dog surgically free of changes to its joints, as there are no rules about showing an unsound dog with poor movement, but most judges would be able to pick up that something is not right, (hopefully!!!) and it may be an exercise in futilty. But at this stage, you are probably more in shock, and more concerned for the well being of your dog, it must be so painful to have your knee cap sliding around falling in and out of a joint - but I know with our girl, it hardly bothered her, she still ran with the others, went for walks, jumped on beds and lounges, etc, until diagnosis was eventually made, and she was shown lightly beforehand, but we always had issues with her movement. Dogs are so much tougher than us, but I know that my kneecap sliding in and out of my joint would be excruiciating. Once our girls diagnosis was made, once the shock wore off, I researched, and researched for myself, visited different vets and specialists, had her undertake swimming and hydrotherapy and above all changed her diet, and got weight off her. My priority was the dogs, as Im sure yours is. She has never shown again, is desexed, but will ALWAYS have a home with us. She has become a therapy dog, and although it was devastating losing a brood bitch that was structually excellent despite her knees collapsing, she is still an assest to our home. Our breeder was more than helpful, sympathetic, and responsible in dealing with the situation, as Im sure yours will be.

[oakway]

She has a GENETIC FAULT, and the ONLY right thing to do is have her desexed, and eliminated from the breeding programme, whether she was a breeding quality or not.

ALLEGED genetic fault at this stage...

hopefully a decent orthopaedic specialist who knows cavs has been chosen, and they will be able provide more information.

Absolutely.

Until this condition is proven to be genetic.

Many dogs suffer from L P but it is in some cases it is man made by incorrect diet, and whole heap of enviromental conditions.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Go and see a specialist your vet may have the diagnosis wrong. Two vets told me 2 different things were wrong with my boy and when I saw the specialist and he looked at the first set of X-rays he could clearly see elbow dysplasia. Moral of the story always see an ortho specialist for ortho issues. They are brilliant.

[Steve]

Im so sorry you have been given this news and I agree you need a specialist to be sure.

Part of theproblem when we start to talk about this is that when people say heritable,genetic, congenital we start looking for a magic marker,and modes of inheritance etc but the reality is that the chances of this particular problem ever having a method of being able to spot which dog might produce a pup with the condition via some genetic marker is never ever likely to occur.

Some say its autosomal, others recessive and more polygenic depending on which studies you look at.

The fact that the incidence is higher in females for some points to it maybe being somehow sex linked or at least hormonal . Some feel allowing bitches to breed sooner with all the relaxin during pregnancy etc prevents it which may have a case as the gradings and results are affected by a bitch in season etc.

Many big names in the canine nutrition area have some good points to make on it being diet related or at least preventable or limited by diet. Lots of research to back this up. Some new research even has some good stuff on the bitch's nutrition and the grandmothers nutrition – as the pup is the product of eggsimplanted into the bitch from her mother when she was conceived .

Some are definitely caused by a deformity of the knee cap at birth and if that's all itever was it would be much easier to breed away from but some are caused byangulation of bones in other parts of the body too – for example conformational issues in the hind quarters such as being too high in the rump puts pressure on the fore joints and minor angulation differences in the shoulders Or chest would do the same - others are caused by aninjury . This is why understanding the breed standard and working toward good conformation is so important and oftenover looked by those who breed with no other goal but to make people pets or for something that is winning in the ring with no vision of what leaving that bit out may mean. It's just not that simple and grades need o be correlated with conformation and movement specificsto track if one is more likely than another to get this if improvement is going to be based on science is needed.

Some have also a strong case for it being impacted by immunity which leads back to nutrition, environment and exercise.

The screaming big deal is that even though we have been testing and recording and trying to breed away from it the incidence hasn't been significantly loweredand if it is showing a lesser incidence in some lines that may be due to a myriadof reasons and small decisions that breeder makes rather than some magic gene which may one day be identified running around in the dog.

The fact is no one really knows and in all honesty expecting any breeder could guarantee it won't happen is unrealistic.

Breeders shouldn't be guaranteeing against this either -all any one can say is that the dog is healthy at time of sale unless it is something that can be tested via DNA and there is no doubt that the pups won't get it.

This is just one issue breeders have to take into account – dogs have 100,000 plus genes - when they are planning their breedings and although it doesn't feel like it at the moment in the big scheme of things PL is not such a big deal when you compare it to heart disease, SM and a whole heap of others which would have a far greater impact on quality of life and longevity and future generations etc.

Breeders have to weigh up the risk factors and work to goals and because we are breeding live creatures no matter how much we try sometimes all doesn't go according to plan.Sometimes we have to choose the lesser risk too.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Steve

[aussielover]

Surgery is not indicated for a grade 1 luxating patella, and is controversial for a grade 2 luxating patella.

Someone said that the vet simply fiddling around with the leg is not sufficient to diagnose LP. I guess it depends what you mean by "fiddling around" but luxating patella CAN be diagnosed by palpation alone. In a dog with a normal patella, the patella will not be able to be manually luxated at all.

This is a quick summary of the grades if anyone is interested

Grade I: The kneecap can be moved out of place manually but will fall back into its natural position once the manipulator lets go.

Grade 2: Same thing except that the kneecap does not move back to its normal position when the manipulator lets go.

Grade 3: The patella is out of place all the time but can be manipulated back into its normal position manually (though it will not stay there).

Grade 4: The patella is not only out of place all the time but cannot even be manipulated back into place by hand.

The OP needs to see an orthopedic specialist or at least get a second opinion from another vet.

Grade 1 luxating patella may not cause the dog any serious issues ever in its life, although as with any dog with health issues- should not be bred from if you want to try and minimise the incidence in the breed.

[melstar-36]

this is dutchess, the girl in question.

[smisch]

We have had a pup who we suspected at a young age had a knee issue. I took the pup to my vet who is a qualified chiro he has worked wonders with my boy who has had issues in his alignment as he is a strangely built bc and agility sometimes gets the better of him lmao.

The vet had a feel and a good look at both her knees and said that one is slightly weaker then the other but it could have been due to growth as she was only young or it's simply underdeveloped basically a numbe of things.. We were expecting the worst of LP. We were given advice of swimming to strengthen the muscel and make sure that she was getting plenty of the good stuff to ensure good growth.. Never has an issue after and she's been an amazing little dog

So don't think the worst until you've exhausted all avenues it could merely be muscular if there is even anything.. a good vet is worth their weight in gold, we love ours and so do our dogs

But remember whatever it is and if it requires surgery or not she is your pet, if you merely got her for breeding then I'd be handing her back..all of our dogs here compete and show but first and foremost are our pets and we let them be dogs if they don't wanna do it that's fine. If they are totally injured and can't do what they do that's fine as well as we still love them.. Just in the midst of your stress and anxiety remember that! You love your girl

Good luck

Edited April 21, 2012 by smisch

[Souff]

Well I am going to take a different approach to this.

Before anything further is done I would ascertain that this bitch is of a quality to be bred with.

I think you said she has not been shown ?. If she has not been shown how do you know the dog is of a quality to be bred with ?. Most bitches are usually only bred with after a successful winning show career.

What we purchase as young stock sometimes may not even make the grade as breeding stock.

I would be making sure this one is of suitable quality and getting a second opinion from an orthopaedic man before I did anything further. :)

Why would any of that matter now? She has a GENETIC FAULT, and the ONLY right thing to do is have her desexed, and eliminated from the breeding programme, whether she was a breeding quality or not. Her options regarding the dog's quality of life regarding surgery, etc, are a seperate issue. It is people who take breeding animals to orthapedic surgeons have the damage repaired so they are invisible, put them in the show ring as there is no way of telling once the fur has grown back, and then breed from them that is causing issues within our breed. If a dog has a genetic fault such as patella luxation it should be eliminated from breeding, no ifs and buts about it. There is no genetic test for patella's to test for carriers, so even if you have pups from the bitch that are unaffected they could still be carrying the fault. Not only is taking these chances wrong, and against the Code of Ethics, it is cruel to the potential pups that have to live with the disorder, or have an excruiciating surgery for the repair, that may not work. Unfortunately for the owner, because the bitch has patella luxation it is not of breeding quality, so there is no point assessing its other points. It could be the most amazing dog structually and temperament wise but its patella's eliminate it from breeding potential. And if I was aware of anybody who did have a patella luxation operation occur and then still breed then I think that is something I would report.

No, the only RIGHT THING to do is to let this puppy grow a little more, and for now keep her away from vets who are pulling kneecaps out of alignment.

If we all de-sexed pups that exhibit Grade 1 patella in one leg while they are still growing, then there would be no breeding stock left in a few years time.

But hey, don't believe me.

Before you go off about reporting people, first read what canine orthopaedic specialists with over 40 years diagnostic experience say:

http://www.offa.org/pl_grades.html

Patellar Luxation Grades

The Patellar Luxation Database is for dogs 12 months and over. Examinations performed on dogs less than 12 months will be treated as Consultations and no OFA breed numbers will be assigned.

Melstar, give that vet the flick! Don't let your dog be the means to her next new car.

Souff

[persephone]

:) Duchess looks very regal in that pic. What a pretty girl she is.

[Souff]

Melstar, I have now found the post where you mentioned the age of your pup. She is just 1 year old. Still settling into that adolescent frame.

I take patella issues seriously but as AussieLover has pointed out, we do not operate for Grade 1 patella.

To reach that diagnosis, the vet has to physically manipulate the joint and get the knee to dislocate.

That is not normal use of the knee.

Take notice of people like Oakway re diet and such (they are awesome) and also look at the chiropractic options.

There are some fantastic chiros who work with dogs.

Surgery is for severe problems, not Grade 1.

By all means see a specialist, but I would be inclined to wait a bit. At this age, there is no rush.

Souff