Where Do I Stand With My Breeder

[Kavik]

Does she have any clinical signs?

ETA: I would definitely see a specialist before doing surgery

Edited April 20, 2012 by Kavik

[m-sass]

My gorgeous little cavalier has just been to the vets and the vet tells me she has patella, a genetic disease of the knees and required surgery to recorrect them, of course I will be contacting her breeder to tell her, my question is what grounds do I have to stand on, I purchased the dog with all intentions of breeding in the future, the breeder knew this and was sold on Main papers. She has seen a heart and eyes specialist and seemed to have all the boxes ticked until today. Now of course she will have the operation and desexed to make sure the condition isn't passed on. Can I suggest that the breeder help out with the vet bills, I'm really upset and frustrated, I called the vca but apparently the person I need to speak too isn't there Friday, do I report her?

Firstly you need a "proper" diagnosis from a vet experienced with the condition, I have a had a couple of HD diagnosises in the surgery over the years from over enthusiastic vet's having a guess, one was a splinter of wood between the pads on the foot making a dog limp diagnosed as HD a "good" and documented diagnosis is essential.

If the dog does have a condition preventing you from using the dog for it's intended purpose like breeding, then the breeder hasn't supplied a breedworthy dog and needs to compensate you in some way for that, either a refund adjustment on the purchase price or a replacement pup, however I don't believe that the breeder is responsible for funding treatment to keep the dog for a pet when buying a dog for breeding IMHO, you either fund it yourself or PTS and start again with a better breeding.

Although we know and understand that with the best breeding intentions and health screening pocesses things can go wrong, but having said that, some breeders tend to like sharing the burden with the purchaser, a mentality I think is wrong. The breeding and selection of parentage and bloodlines is the breeders responsibility not the purchaser's and if the breeder messes that up from a genetic perspective, they need to sort it out with the purchaser in a proper manner.

[Nekhbet]

I would go for a definitive second opinion. My breeder uses Monash or you can try University of Melbourne in Werribee if thats closer.

[Dogsfevr]

So how long have you owned her ??

When your grooming her have you noticed her knees clicking or a weakness??

Does she jump ???

[Alyosha]

Definitely need a second opinion. You should have been given some decent information, at least some places you could research, and a proper description of the issue, with a correct grading.

[mackiemad]

i second nehkbet. there is also a 24 hr emergency vet that has fantastic technology and diagnostics and a really good orthodpedic specialist on dandenong rd, corner of darling rd, malvern east.

but werribee or monash are go to places with state of the art diagnostics and specialists.

all small dogs can get luxating patella - until you know what grade it is and what are the best options (yes more than just surgery!) for your dog don't do anything rash and don't despair.

[Quickasyoucan]

I second the need for a proper opinion from an orthopaedic specialist. I had a general vet tell me my dog had moderate HD. When he subsequently injured his cruciate and I went to a specialist I mentioned the HD and the specialist said he didn't have any real degree of HD the generalist vet had just positioned him badly for the x-ray!

I am in Sydney but I recall people recommending Charles Kunz in Melbourne (he used to come onto the forum sometimes).

My sister's pedigree dog in the UK has developed HD from parents with good hip scores, sometimes it is just bad luck, mother nature has the last say..

Hope things turn out well for you.

[dancinbcs]

I suggest you call the breeder, tell her what the vet said and ask her to recommend another vet that is experienced with Cavs to get a second opinion. She may even want to go with you to that consultation. Also use the phone call to confirm that the parents were not affected. If the parents were not affected and the puppy was fine when sold then that is all the breeder can do. Some breeders are very generous and will replace the puppy or offer one at a reduced price or occasionally offer a refund when things like this go wrong but they are not obliged to pay any vet bills.

A lot of vets are very quick to blame breeders for everything. Luxating Patella is very common in all toy breeds and breeders can only make sure they breed from unaffected dogs and cross their fingers because there are no tests to determine what the genetics involved are. It is more to do with the size of the dog than anything else. Small dogs are prone to LP large dogs are prone to HD.

I remember an idiot vet telling a puppy owner in my breed, where LP is extremely rare, that the breeder should pay for very expensive surgery. The breeder gave her the choice of 3 vets for a second opinion. The vet she chose, operated for about a third the original quoted cost and diagnosed a severe injury to the stifle joint with scar tissue built up that was preventing the patella from sitting properly. The puppy concerned was also more than 50% above her correct weight and the first vet never even mentioned that would have been the reason the injury didn't heal. Some vets are just so incompetant it is frightening.

[Angeluca]

PLEASE DON"T GET SURGERY UNTIL YOU HAVE SEEN A SPECIALIST!!!!

My boy when he was 3 months all of a sudden refused to use his back right leg i took him to my vet who said he had ruptured his cruciate ligament. I spoke to my breeder as i was in exact same situation wanted to start my own breeding program.

I was quoted $1800 on that leg and the other leg would go too. My breeder asked me to see a specialist so I did. a week later and my pup was on no pain killers i was told that goldies have very flexible joints, and that he had strained a ligament and needed anti-inflams for a week and he'd be fine. But then proceeded to tell me his hips were shot and i should fuse the when he was 5 mths old just in case.

2 days later it was like nothing had ever happened. I refuses to fuse and had his hips done last month and got 5/8 which is under the breed average.

Trust your breeder and speak to them please!!!!!

Edited April 20, 2012 by Angeluca

[Pollywaffle]

I'm no expert..but I will comment..when we first got our maltese cross (thought was a purebred at the time as was ignorant of doggy things then)...eight years ago the vet we were seeing said that our little boy had this problem and needed corrective surgery straight away. We booked him in for surgery. When we turned up for the operation (with wads of cash in hand!) another vet was on duty who immediately took a look at our boy and told us he didn't need corrective surgery. That was eight years ago and our boy is as mobile as they come. Second opinion..definitely.

[m-sass]

Some vets are just so incompetant it is frightening.

I get the impression the motivation of some vets is to upsell the job........would you like fries with your burger or a thick shake, perhaps some preventative hip surgery for $3000 so she doesn't get HD oh, and you should be feeding our food we sell which is 3 times the price of an equivilent and have you seen our nice leather leashes we just got in.............makes you wonder

Edited April 20, 2012 by m-sass

[yarracully]

I've just been reading abit and no my vet didn't grade it, just said it was bad in both kness, give me 2 grand, desex the dog and off you go. I was so frustrated by the end of the consult, I wasn't ready to leave, just wanted to know everything about it but she was standing with the door open waiting for me to leave. I now regret asking whether I should ask for help from her breeder, or Evan report her. I didn't want to upset other breeders, I understand that sometimes bad things happen!

This alone would get my hackles up. It might just be me but it seems the vet is more interested in dollars than alternatives. I would be even less impressed if the vet was trying to hurry me out of the office as this would reinforce the vets priority is dollars.

If it were me I would get another opinion and another vet. Another opinion should be your first priority. Another vet later is upto you.

I don't think you have upset any breeders so don't feel that you have (Quite a few breeders will tell you if you had upset them). However if you didn't ask the question you would not have been any wiser and could have made an expensive mistake. Asking questions is how you learn and it is better to learn from others than make the same mistakes as others. Thats why forums like this exist and why many breeders and dog owners are on them.

[erinonthefarm]

Get a second opinion from monash vets

[juice]

If you breeder is a good one, both parents tested etc, talk to her, she may well recommend a specialist.

If you bought the pup off a byb, forget that and get recommendation here.

One thing that does strike me though, if you intended and still do to breed, it might be a good idea to have more knowledge of the health issue's of the breed before you start.

[Jed]

The very FIRST thing you need to do is to speak with the breeder. I breed Cavaliers, and I have bred 2 Cavaliers which were diagnosed by vets at 10 -12 months with luxating patellas. Neither had a patella problem.

When Cavaliers are 9 - 12 months old, they often grow "bum high" and walk funny. So, vets who know nothing about the breed, except that "Cavaliers can have patella problems" diagnose patells problems and want to operate.

LP can be inherited, or aquired. Even if inherited, it may be that no direct ancestor has LP, so the breeder could not know.

However, rather than an operation, I would consider alternative treatement - physio, chiro, an appropriate diet.

And I wouldn't be ringing up the breeder fto accuse anyone of anything. Ring up to see if the breeder can give you advice.

Personally, I would be bothered about a GP vet recommending an operation on a dog which, if it has LP at all, probably has Gr. 1

How old is your dog?

Edited April 20, 2012 by Jed

[melstar-36]

My bitch comes from good health tested stock, she is my foundation bitch, I was not planning to breed for quite a few years because what I have learnt about MVD is that it can arrise in healthy breeding stock when they are over 3, so better to be safe than sorry and I knew the basics of Patella luxation, that it was a slipping of the knees and was no gentic test for it. Just didn't think my girl would get it I spoke to my vet and got a referral to see pet emergency and specialist center in dandenong, my girl had her heart checked out there a few months ago and the staff are lovely. My vet was abit pissed that I was seeking a second opinion, she asked me why go to someone that will charge you double the price! I told her that she didn't give me enough info and would feel more at ease with a second opinion, she told me that Dutchess had grade one and needed surgery immediately before she formed athristis (she knew how much this would hurt me, my old girl of 12 years passed away 2 months ago from bad arthristis) I most differently will be changing vets now

[Jed]

How old is the dog?

I would seek alternative treatment rather than operate on a Gr 1 patella. As i said earlier. Second opinion for sure. Find a vet who knows Cavaliers.

[pie]

Your vet should not be discouraging you from seeking a second opinion, especially form a specialist. Doesn't sit well with me and I'm glad you are considering changing vets.

Hope your girl is fine and all clear.

[Angeluca]

I am so sorry you had to experience that treatment but you'll be better for it honestly, and you'll become better at screening vets too, which is really important cause as you know with breeding vet visits are frequent for testing ultrasounds , birthing advice ect ect ect.

I am yet to step into this part of my life still 18mth 2 yrs in the making. But we are getting there. Altho I haven't started breeding and haven't got access into the breeders section I watch it closely, due to unforeseen hiccups they discuss, preventatives general breeding advice ect ect but most of all for the puppy pics they post every month :laugh:

No seriously good advice for learners get discussed all there time.

Your breeder sound very good, and they trusted you with their lines giving you a mains pup. I would seriously recommend a chat with them cause they've probably been there and done that!!!!

Edited April 20, 2012 by Angeluca

[melstar-36]

I hope she's alright too, as I said, never shown any signs before. She's 14 months old, weight is just under 9 kg, feed a healthy diet of chicken or kangaroo mince, rice, veggies, garlic and calcium powder. Walked twice a day and lives indoors.