Where Do I Stand With My Breeder

[Bec n Shad]

she told me that Dutchess had grade one and needed surgery immediately before she formed athristis (she knew how much this would hurt me, my old girl of 12 years passed away 2 months ago from bad arthristis) I most differently will be changing vets now

No offence, but your vet doesn't sound very "nice" (changed the wording to make it polite). If my vet brought up previous issues with the intent to emotionally blackmail me into ANYTHING, they would not only being getting a piece of my mind, but they would never have the pleasure of seeing my face (or my money) again IMO she really could have taken a different approach to presenting you with this information.

I am no where near experienced on this topic, and because of that fact alone I would personally seek a second opinion.

Good luck and I have my fingers crossed for you and your pup.

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

the vet told me it was purely genetic, I don't know to much about it and

I'm researching it right now

...

And I'm not trying to stir trouble but isn't it the breeders responsibility ( if it is indeed genetic) to of breed from healthy stock. And be aware of it in there breeding lines

While I am glad to see you are aware of genetic health issues and don't plan to breed from your girl anymore, this post bothers me a little... you are saying breeders have a responsibility to be aware of potential health problems, when earlier you say that you, as a soon-to-be-breeder, know little about the issue yourself? I strongly recommend you research your breed's genetic health issues before you think about breeding them so you can be prepared in case the worst happens.

I second what has been said re finding a new and more reliable vet, and getting a specialist to look at your girl. Best of luck, hope she recovers swiftly.

[Dogsfevr]

I hope she's alright too, as I said, never shown any signs before. She's 14 months old, weight is just under 9 kg, feed a healthy diet of chicken or kangaroo mince, rice, veggies, garlic and calcium powder. Walked twice a day and lives indoors.

She is a big girl ,either fat or rather oversized for a bitch

[stonecutter]

Melstar - I definitely recommend getting a specialist opinion.

And regarding tests - my girl came from parents who are both grade 0, no problems with grandparents or other offspring - but Ziva has a mild case of LP. After doing an extensive family tree - I found a bitch whose siblings had very bad LP and have passed it on (I think I went back 4 generations). So sometimes it's just bad luck - thankfully we never wanted to breed, so after she got her Ch title, we had her desexed.

But Z's breeder definitely wanted to know.

[melstar-36]

Sorry fat finger alert, she's just under 8 kg, hehe I'm still figuring out how to type using my new iPhone

[SparkyTansy]

I agree with others to get a second opinion - good on you for doing so, even if you had to endure the crappy treatment by a vet who seems to have issues making a quick diagnosis and then disliking the fact that you wish to seek further information.

I know of a situation with someone who had a pup diagnosed with a very serious condition, the vet was SURE the issue was that, despite the issue being genetic and rarely if ever seen in the breed. The vet personally booked them into the specialist for the operation, without having them see the specialist first. The owners even booked time off work due to the recovery time. They saw the specialist and the specialist didn't think it was this condition afterall. A lot of heartache for the owners AND the breeder.

I'm sure that sometimes vets think that it's really easy to diagnose purebreeds based on breed history but the number of times I've heard them get it very wrong is concerning.

[Rebanne]

Please stop feeding the calcium right away. Give your dog a raw chicken wing instead.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Rebanne

[oakway]

Well I am going to take a different approach to this.

Before anything further is done I would ascertain that this bitch is of a quality to be bred with.

I think you said she has not been shown ?. If she has not been shown how do you know the dog is of a quality to be bred with ?. Most bitches are usually only bred with after a successful winning show career.

What we purchase as young stock sometimes may not even make the grade as breeding stock.

I would be making sure this one is of suitable quality and getting a second opinion from an orthopaedic man before I did anything further. :)

[melstar-36]

Please stop feeding the calcium right away. Give your dog a raw chicken wing instead.

We were recommended by our vet that calcium powder was a must, seems she's way to precious to get dry food, she's a very very fussy eater. Isn't chicken wings not so good for small dogs because the bones can tear there throat?

[oakway]

Definitely NO calcium powder.

Feed chicken wings or necks.

No, we feed our dogs chicken frames and mine weigh far less than a cav.

[Missymoo]

My bitch comes from good health tested stock, she is my foundation bitch, I was not planning to breed for quite a few years because what I have learnt about MVD is that it can arrise in healthy breeding stock when they are over 3, so better to be safe than sorry and I knew the basics of Patella luxation, that it was a slipping of the knees and was no gentic test for it. Just didn't think my girl would get it I spoke to my vet and got a referral to see pet emergency and specialist center in dandenong, my girl had her heart checked out there a few months ago and the staff are lovely. My vet was abit pissed that I was seeking a second opinion, she asked me why go to someone that will charge you double the price! I told her that she didn't give me enough info and would feel more at ease with a second opinion, she told me that Dutchess had grade one and needed surgery immediately before she formed athristis (she knew how much this would hurt me, my old girl of 12 years passed away 2 months ago from bad arthristis) I most differently will be changing vets now

Grade one and she wants to OPERATE??? (shes not just out of vet school is she? wow, thats crazy..I bet she pushed really hard too...

[SparkyTansy]

Yes i'm not sure how she can say the case is bad and then say its Grade One. Does this vet even know the grading levels?

[melstar-36]

We have been to a few shows but I only watch, I have so much more to learn before I jump in, instead I stay at home and watch my crufts DVDs and hope one day I can play with the big boys. Lol. And Evan though she hadn't been shown doesn't make her poor quality, she's lived up to all my expectations and has the best temperament. One off the questions on the breeders exam was- best practical advice for selection a foundation bitch- a. Use your first bitch B. use your first title winning bitch C. Consider type and temperament D. Consider wins... The answer c, my girl doesn't need to be Evan though I'd love her to be, a champion in the show ring to be considered good breeding stock. But she will be desexed now and I'll have to dream off competing in the neuter class now :)

[melstar-36]

And as for the grading, I totally over reacted, she made it seem beyond bad. All this advise is really reassuring that everything will be ok

[oakway]

We have been to a few shows but I only watch, I have so much more to learn before I jump in, instead I stay at home and watch my crufts DVDs and hope one day I can play with the big boys. Lol. And Evan though she hadn't been shown doesn't make her poor quality, she's lived up to all my expectations and has the best temperament. One off the questions on the breeders exam was- best practical advice for selection a foundation bitch- a. Use your first bitch B. use your first title winning bitch C. Consider type and temperament D. Consider wins... The answer c, my girl doesn't need to be Evan though I'd love her to be, a champion in the show ring to be considered good breeding stock. But she will be desexed now and I'll have to dream off competing in the neuter class now :)

It doesn't matter how much you love this bitch and how good her temperament may be, she may not have the conformation

to be a brood bitch.

Why would you de sex on vets say so when the vet may not be fully qualified to diagnose this condition.

Maybe if you told us how this bitch has been fed we may be able to help you more as diet plays a big part in the bone development. :)

[Topoftheheap]

We have been in the exact same position, with the same breed and I understand your feelings, but you need to take a deep breath, and calm down (hard I know).

First you need to get a second opinion to confirm the diagonosis and the severity. Second, BEFORE you rush into the operation, you need to do some research to decide what treatment is the best for your dog. The surgery is EXTREMELY painful, and the re-cooperation is difficult, and uncomfortable for your dog for a long period of time, as you need to do each knee seperately, and recovery can take 6 weeks each leg where the dog is immobile. In some cases there are other therapies you can try, including exercise in water, losing weight, etc, and the surgery has a fairly low success rate, and in 50% of cases the joint will pop out again, there are no guarantees that the joint will stay in the patella groove. But these are decisions that YOU as the owner need to make, there is ALOT of information out there, and if you are a member of ANZ Cavaliers (an email list for Cavie breeders) or the breed club they can help you too, also on the internet.

You do need to tell the breeder, especially as the dog was sold for breeding purposes. Patella luxation is a genetic disorder, but there is no test that you can have the animals take to determine whether they are carriers or not. The gene is passed on through autosomal mode of inheritance, which means that it is fairly random, and in a litter of pups from an affected animals you can have no affected, but 25% of puppies are carriers, and show no symptoms. This means that the breeder may have NO idea that she has a dog that is a carrier, and has done absolutely nothing wrong. So I wouldn't report her, because its just not fair to, once you have done your research and understand the mode of inheritance for patella's you will see that there are many circumstances in which a carrier of the disease may find there way into a breeding programme, despite best efforts to eliminate all genetic diseases. Im not saying that all the breeder's in the line are blameless, someone in the lines of your dog has done the wrong thing has bred from an affected dog, but WHEN that was done is impossible to tell, and could be ALONG way back, even great, great, great, great grandparents, etc, unless you have proof that one of the breeder's animals that she owns are affected. But as for your plans with your dog, as you are aware, her breeding days are behind her, and it is great that you are responsible enough to realise this and have her desexed. Even if she is bred with a 'clear' dog, she will pass down the defective gene to her offspring, with the chance of 1 in 4 being born affected, and 1 in 4 being carriers.

I don't think that the breeder will offer you any monetery assistance with the veterinary expenses, but what seems to be fairly commonplace, is a replacement dog from different breeding later down the line. Obviously I don't know who the breeder is and can't comment on her individual actions, but if you are honest and open with her about the position you have been placed in and express your sadness and disappointment in how this is worked out, I believe most breeders will be fairly reasonable. I understand how you feel, we have been in this situation, and it is devastating, but do some research, and see what her response is, but go in educated (as much as you can be) so that if she becomes unreasonable, you can be knowledgable back. Now, some breeders out there may not be responsive, and may ignore you, or simply don't want to know, I hope this is not the case, but if you did everything possible when choosing a bitch that you were planning to breed with, that the breeder was responsible that she will continue to be responsible now. But I have never heard of money being offered to assist in the care of the dog. After all, as I have learned the hard way, buying a dog on main papers is not a guarantee - so many things can happen, and the breeder can not be responsible for things that they can't possibly invisage.

Plus, GET THE WEIGHT OFF HER - it is the BEST THING YOU CAN DO FOR HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our bitch was on the podgy side too, and since she has lost weight, her knees are more stable, and the symptoms are barely noticable. If you decide to go down the surgery route you will also need her to lose the weight anyway. If you would like some links to some great research, info,etc pleaes PM me.

[melstar-36]

I have an appointment with a specialist next week so hopefully he can clear things up for me. She has a diet of mince, veggies, rice, garlic and calcium powder. A dental stick at night, liver cake for training ( not every day) sometimes chicken necks , I crate her when we eat, she is a vacuum if the kids drop food on the floor and she gives me the 'puss in boots stare' when I'm eating. I keep her in the recommended weight for her breed but I will be restricting her feed amount abit more now to keep her on the slimmer part of the scales

[oakway]

I have an appointment with a specialist next week so hopefully he can clear things up for me. She has a diet of mince, veggies, rice, garlic and calcium powder. A dental stick at night, liver cake for training ( not every day) sometimes chicken necks , I crate her when we eat, she is a vacuum if the kids drop food on the floor and she gives me the 'puss in boots stare' when I'm eating. I keep her in the recommended weight for her breed but I will be restricting her feed amount abit more now to keep her on the slimmer part of the scales

First thing in my opinion is to get rid of the vegies, rice garlic and calcium.

Give meat and naturel bone in the form of chicken necks and/or wings also chicken frames, these may be portioned to the dog requirements.

Firstly the vegies are usless unless they are liquefied in a blender or put through an electric juicer.Vegies are full of cellulose and dogs can't digest it unless prepared in the above way.

Rice is just a filler.

Garlic is from the onion family and has been known to kill. Yes of course you may use a little but don't be heavy handed.

When dogs grow, yes they need calcium but not the powder. What we have found out is....grow them slowly,

We use foods that are naturel or specially prepared for the growing stages available at produce or pet shops.

Many of are using a naturel diet of raw meaty bones (size and amount suitable to the size of the dog) and small amount of the appropriate dry food if you wish.

We are all here to help you, not hinder you in any way, and if any of us can be of assistance to you we will be.

Sometimes we get mad with vets who offer a to quick diagnosis but we wouldn't be with out them for quids.

Sometimes we have some over zealous ones, so just go slowly

[Gretel]

I hope she's alright too, as I said, never shown any signs before. She's 14 months old, weight is just under 9 kg, feed a healthy diet of chicken or kangaroo mince, rice, veggies, garlic and calcium powder. Walked twice a day and lives indoors.

Unless she is rather on the large size that is heavy for a Cavalier bitch. Jed's post was very good and there is lots of very good advice in here for you. I've been the breeder who sold a pup with luxating patellas. I asked the buyer to come with me to my vet for another opinion. This was a pup who was bred from sound parents and it was a total shock to me. These things can, and do, happen. It is very unfortunate. I've been on the other side too. My first Cavalier had very bad knees

Edited to add that I just read she was on calcium powder. You can do damage with calcium!

Edited April 20, 2012 by Gretel

[Jumabaar]

I agree about a second opinion! Even if you don't go down the path of surgery I would suggest doing some form of management for the dog.

The Patella sits in a groove that is formed by the pressure the patella being pushed into the underlying bone by the ligament. The bigger the dog the more pressure that is placed simply due the load being carried by the joint. In light weight dogs there is not a lot of pressure so if the ligament is loose there is not as much pressure being placed on the underlying bone so the groove isn't as deep- making it even easier for the patella to move out of the groove. (This is the reason why a vet may chose to recommend surgery early on in small breeds with patella laxation- to try and create pressure on the bone to form a nice deep groove as the dog grows instead of having to surgically create the groove in adults. Some vets jump the gun with it but in severe cases doing surgery early can really improve the outcome for the animal.)

BUT if the problem is not too bad then doing careful exercise may assist in creating the groove (if it is not very deep and the animal is still growing- although it might be a little late), as well as making the muscles strong enough to hold the patella in place even if the ligament itself is a little weak. If you commit to this course its a life long thing because you will need to keep the muscles strong. A canine physio should be able to give help a lot in preventative treatment.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Jumabaar