Where Do I Stand With My Breeder

[melstar-36]

My gorgeous little cavalier has just been to the vets and the vet tells me she has patella, a genetic disease of the knees and required surgery to recorrect them, of course I will be contacting her breeder to tell her, my question is what grounds do I have to stand on, I purchased the dog with all intentions of breeding in the future, the breeder knew this and was sold on Main papers. She has seen a heart and eyes specialist and seemed to have all the boxes ticked until today. Now of course she will have the operation and desexed to make sure the condition isn't passed on. Can I suggest that the breeder help out with the vet bills, I'm really upset and frustrated, I called the vca but apparently the person I need to speak too isn't there Friday, do I report her?

[Alyosha]

You mean a luxating patella? The patella is the kneecap, luxating means it moves about or dislocates. It can be genetic, environmental, due to a dog being overweight whilst growing, or the result of a trauma or knock.

[Missymoo]

Report her for what?! Omg, she doesn't have a magic ball..it's not like she planned it, sometimes genetic stuff crops up Unfortunatly, even when you do your darn best to avoid.... Give her a break and talk to her

[Sheridan]

It think it would be very hard to prove it is genetic as opposed to something else.

I can understand wanting to let the breeder know but I wish people weren't quite so obsessed these days with exacting payment for something which could well be their own fault.

[Dame Aussie]

Report her for what?! Omg, she doesn't have a magic ball..it's not like she planned it, sometimes genetic stuff crops up Unfortunatly, even when you do your darn best to avoid.... Give her a break and talk to her

Totally agree. No puppy is certified "perfect", breeders do their best but these things can happen.

[Alyosha]

Unfortunately animals are not like cars or computers or appliances and guarantees and warranties are not so applicable. Chat to the breeder without hosility or accusation, and see where to go from there.

Unfortuanely it is not uncommon to buy a pup for breeding/showing etc and have it not turn out. Nature is a fickle thing and despite best efforts and intentions sometimes things don't turn out as hoped for.

[Dogsfevr]

Okay turn the scenario around ,you want to breed so what will you be doing when people phone with any issues you have breed??

I gather you brought the dog from a breeder who health tests & has done everything in there power to breed a healthy dog or did you just buy from any breeder that would sell you a main pup that you could breed with??

As the breeder i would be asking you to get a written report from the vet with there exact findings .

I wouldn't be phoning the breeder unless you can actually explain the findings correctly or the right terms .

How old is the dog??Has she been shown & does she limp or show any signs of issue

[melstar-36]

Yes I'm frustrated. Did I say she was a dreadful breeder, she's really lovely but I didn't want to go to her guns blazing if it's just the luck of the draw, the vet told me it was purely genetic, I don't know to much about it and

I'm researching it right now, the vet also told me its a bad case of it. Please I come to you asking for advice, never been in the situation before so was unsure of what steps to take next, I know that breeders don't have a magic ball, I didn't know that other situations could of cases it, the vet just said it was genetic. And I'm not trying to stir trouble but isn't it the breeders responsibility ( if it is indeed genetic) to of breed from healthy stock. And be aware of it in there breeding lines

[melstar-36]

And the dog is only 1, never showed any signs and we were only at the vets a few weeks ago, isn't over weight, to me she was fit a fiddle

[Tentapride]

Is this a small medium or large breed and how old is the pup? I have found with small breeds most vets expect to find patella problems and are far to zealous in diagnosing them. I would be very wary of this diagnosis is a young pup of a small breed. Their ligaments are still developing and its not that hard to manipulate a patella within a socket. Wait until the pup is at least 6-9months old before deciding on any intervention expecially surgical. Loose ligaments often tighten up and what is diagnosed young as a problem may be non existent when the pup matures.

IMHO you also can't expect a breeder to cover your costs for something that may be a result of an injury. Unless you cna prove the breeeder knowingly bred from parents affected by luxating patella's then you would have not claim against them.

[Alyosha]

You're right Melstar, the breeder should be informed if it is genetic. But I know that vets sometimes aren't quite as knowledgeable on breeding and genetics as they may seem. Yes, this can be genetic. But have other potential factors been ruled out? Do you need a second or specialist opinion?

I know it's stressful, but take a breath and figure out what's what, like you say - without guns blazing. :)

[persephone]

I'm sorry your plans seem to have gone up in smoke ..and sorry your pup's in pain. I have had a dog require surgery on one knee only ..he recovered perfectly and was very active all his life :)

How old is your pup?

is your vet experienced with orthopedic stuff?

what testing did he do to come to his conclusion?

Are you willing to get another opinion? maybe from someone who specialises in this sort of problem?

[Alyosha]

Jump on google - type in "luxating patella" and do some reading on the condition, so you can feel a little bit more prepared and in control, and know what you'd like to ask of your vet and of the breeder whn that time comes.

Here is a basic start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxating_patella

[melstar-36]

Thanks guys, I'm just upset that my little girl requires surgery, can anybody suggest a vet that specializes in this area, I would love to get a second opion before I approach her breeder! as already stated I've never been in this situation before, it's scary and I don't know all the facts, just what my vet is telling me

[melstar-36]

And the vet simply fiddled around with her knees and come to that conclusion within seconds, it shocked the hell out of me

[pepe001]

I assume your pup's parents had all the required tests to ensure genetic complains are minimised? Did she and do you have proof. But even if you do and she did - like others said it is still a lottery. As a living animal you can't predict some things - just try to minimize them occuring. Some breeders will replace a dog if a compaint such as this comes up - others will not. Did you have a guarantee contract that includes this condition?

Just do as you say - ring the breeder after you do the necessary research to be able to talk in the correct terms and know what you are going to say and can understand what she says. Ask for proportions of her pups develop this complaint - although hard to determine as if she is dodgy she will lie anyway and most people don't test. It is not the end of the world - bad luck and I assume bad for your finances but still not the end of the world.

I am not a small dog person but I see a hell of a lot of small dogs walking around with this issue. I just googled it and the first websire said approx 20% of this breed have LP. And that neither dogs with the condition, their siblings nor parents should be bred from. Did you check your dogs parents papers?

Sorry this has happened but like I said and others before - sometimes breeders can do their best they can and still genetic complaints like this can pop up. It personally think if the dog was paid for as a 'potentially breedable' dog and you signed a contract that mentions this complain then you should get your money back or another dog. Others will disagree and say it is luck of the draw. Good luck

[minxy]

And the vet simply fiddled around with her knees and come to that conclusion within seconds, it shocked the hell out of me

I've been through this with my boy. I would suggest you find a specialist (There are proper orthopaedic specialist vets that you can see). I can't recommend one for you unfortunately as I'm in Brisbane, but I think that it is important for you to see a specialist and get x-rays done to be certain. This will also help the specialist see exactly how bad the situation is and help you come up with a plan of action (Surgery or otherwise).

[yarracully]

How old is this dog? If the dog is young and still growing the diagnosis could be inaccurate- it shouldnt be done before 12 months as the leg is still growing.

what is its weight? An overweight dog can cause knee troubles.Especially if overweight at a young age

Has the parents been graded prior to breeding? Dont know if its required by all breeds but in our breed we had to have patellas graded for the issuing of the stud book by the Aust Breed council. ANKC doesn't require it but I still get mine graded anyway so I know what I have to work with.

Has this dog done anything to cause this? Not all patella luxation is genetic.It could be the result of a knock or blow from running around the yard.

Did the vet actually grade the patella luxation? Within our breed we have patellas graded at 12 months of age and the severity of the luxation determines if the dog can still be used for breeding.For example a grade 1 means that considerable force must be used to dislocate the patella whereas a grade 4 means it slips in and out very easily.

I would be getting a second opinion before considering surgery or desexing. I have heard of a few dogs that got extra opinions and it was determined that surgery was not required. You wouldn't want to spend a lot of money on surgery which isnt really needed.

The problem is the ability of the knee to slip in and out of a groove in the leg bone. If you see a dog walking along then it seems to kick out a hind leg or stretch the one leg that is the dog trying to get the patella to reset back into the bone groove. Surgery often involves deepening the groove to resist the slipage. In some cases it also requires tightening of the ligment to hold it in place.

What made you seek an opinion on this in the first place? Not many are aware but this problem can affect large breed dogs. Although more common in small breeds.

Edited April 20, 2012 by yarracully

[Rebanne]

You know something, you can breed from the two most perfect parents in the world and still end up with sh!t. Sometimes you just have to acknowledge you are dealing with a living creature with goodness knows how many different genes rattling around in their body and not all of them hit the right spot. Luxating patella is like hip dysplaysia, sometimes, no matter what the breeder does, what they breed from, what the owner does re exercise and feeding, the dog does develop problems.

Personally, if I had bred your dog, and my dogs were sound, then I wouldn't be paying out anything for any vet bills. I don't guarantee my dogs will be the next big show winner or breeding dog, they are sold on potenial only. They are sold at 8 - 12 weeks old. A lot happens after that which a breeder has no control over.

I have a sh!t happens dog here. He's desexed and loved, and I started again.

[melstar-36]

I've just been reading abit and no my vet didn't grade it, just said it was bad in both kness, give me 2 grand, desex the dog and off you go. I was so frustrated by the end of the consult, I wasn't ready to leave, just wanted to know everything about it but she was standing with the door open waiting for me to leave. I now regret asking whether I should ask for help from her breeder, or Evan report her. I didn't want to upset other breeders, I understand that sometimes bad things happen!