The-Fat-Labrador Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I am hoping you experienced breeders can help me out as I am new to the breeding scene. That said I have spent hours researching, reading and talking to vets and experts to learn as much as possible over the last 2 years. I imported a NZ maiden bitch who is now nearly 3, both of us passed all the necessary tests with flying colours. I had her prog. tested right up to the day and the stud's owner did a 2 X semen transfers with a home AI kit (this was recommended by the stud's owner). After all this I was heartbroken to find that she is not in whelp. My questions are; Can I get any of the service fee back? Has anyone had any luck with home AI kits? Should I take her to a repro specialist? At what age is a bitch too old to have a first litter? She took 8 months between her last 2 cycles is this unusual? The dog community being the lovely people you are can hopefully help me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajacadoo Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Sooooo disappointing for you ... The thing I would like to comment on is the home made AI kit thingy... I was talking to a breeder on the weekend at a dog show, and she was talking about how she gets the frozen semen, defrosts it slowly, (in her bra whatsmore !!!), and gets a pipette, and 'injects' the semen into the bitch, holding her rear end up in the air as long as possible ... So far has a 100% success rate ??? She has been doing it for quite a few years too... I would think that you should get a return service to the stud dog, I think most breeders would do this... Did you sign a contract for the mating etc ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappiemum Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I am hoping you experienced breeders can help me out as I am new to the breeding scene. That said I have spent hours researching, reading and talking to vets and experts to learn as much as possible over the last 2 years. I imported a NZ maiden bitch who is now nearly 3, both of us passed all the necessary tests with flying colours. I had her prog. tested right up to the day and the stud's owner did a 2 X semen transfers with a home AI kit (this was recommended by the stud's owner). After all this I was heartbroken to find that she is not in whelp. My questions are; Can I get any of the service fee back? Has anyone had any luck with home AI kits? Should I take her to a repro specialist? At what age is a bitch too old to have a first litter? She took 8 months between her last 2 cycles is this unusual? The dog community being the lovely people you are can hopefully help me! Hi FL- If I was you I would have a chat to Monash vets re next time, age does depend on breed but 3 should be fine I would have thought. 8 months between cycles is fine too - very normal :) As to stud ettiquitte - generally if you don't get a successful litter, the stud owner will organise for a second attempt. However, there are different arrangements - what does your contract say? I personally wouldn't go the home AI - either a natural mating or a fresh AI at the vets. Doing it at the vets has advantages - they will test the semen to see how viable it is, and will give you an idea of the likeihood of it succeeding (assuming all is ok with your girl). IMO I would much rather have a trained repro vet doing an AI on my female too - if something was to go wrong and you had an infection occur for example, where does it leave you? If its to be a fresh AI, see if the stud owner will meet you there, and if not, at least have the fresh semen delivered to the clinic and let them do the insemmination. A quick question though - is there a reason you went AI and not natural? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Just an interjection here Rajacadoo-doo-doo (aka my Bondaged one)...not all breeders offer a return service. Some consider that they are offering a proven stud dog at stud so therefore a stud fee is what you are paying for the actual service, not the litter. Some offer a free return to the same bitch within a specific time frame. It really depends upon what was agreed upon between the parties so the best course of action is for the OP to contact the stud dog owner and discuss the situation with them. With specific regard to the questions asked: Can I get any of the service fee back? See above response. But generally....no. Has anyone had any luck with home AI kits? Have never used one but know of people who have had success, and others who haven't. It isn't generally the kit that is the issue, it is the timing and the individual dogs. Should I take her to a repro specialist? Your call but I'd rather see a natural breeding done first. Maybe next season to a different dog perhaps? Or a natural breeding to the same dog. What was the reason for the AI request by the stud dog owner in the first place?? At what age is a bitch too old to have a first litter? I wouldn't be leaving it much longer than 3 but have known of bitches up to the age of 6 being successfully bred for the first time. She took 8 months between her last 2 cycles is this unusual? Each bitch is individual. I had one bitch who went for three years between seasons and was bred successfully. If you do take her to a repro specialist they will be able to give you an idea of whether or not 8 months is a problem. I personally wouldn't necessarily be too concerned. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Has anyone had any luck with home AI kits? Have never used one but know of people who have had success, and others who haven't. It isn't generally the kit that is the issue, it is the timing and the individual dogs. Agreed. I have had two litters that were results of "Home AI", I also know of many others who have had puppies from doing there own AI's - fresh semen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 The thing I would like to comment on is the home made AI kit thingy... I was talking to a breeder on the weekend at a dog show, and she was talking about how she gets the frozen semen, defrosts it slowly, (in her bra whatsmore !!!), and gets a pipette, and 'injects' the semen into the bitch, holding her rear end up in the air as long as possible ... So far has a 100% success rate ??? She has been doing it for quite a few years too... With Frozen semen The idea behind holding the rear up is to help the semen move towards the cervix via gravity. With a Natural mating the 3rd fraction helps to push the semen further in. I sell heaps of AI kits, it's more common then people would imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kustali Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I've had success using home AI kits, fact is, when the vet did it it failed, so i did them myself and got pups, so there you go! I would think being it's a live dog, you could try again. What were the progesterone numbers, are you sure the timing was right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pup E Dog Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Can I get any of the service fee back? Just an interjection here Rajacadoo-doo-doo (aka my Bondaged one)...not all breeders offer a return service. Some consider that they are offering a proven stud dog at stud so therefore a stud fee is what you are paying for the actual service, not the litter. Some offer a free return to the same bitch within a specific time frame. It really depends upon what was agreed upon between the parties so the best course of action is for the OP to contact the stud dog owner and discuss the situation with them. I agree. The stud fee is for the service provided, not the resulting litter. The stud provides the same service regardless of what the result is. There can be any number of reasons a mating doesn't result in a pregnancy, some of which the dog or the bitch are the cause... medical issues, difficult matings, timing problems etc. Unfortunately there are also the times when the mating does take and other things can cause the pregnancy to terminate early, none of which the stud owner has any control over. Because any of these things can result in no litter, most contracts will have a limit of either time or number of matings. Personally, I and most breeders I know offer a return service but not the option of a refund particularly if the stud has been proven as a sire. The reason I don't offer a refund on unproven sires is because I have a semen viability check done on my boys before they are made available to stud. The other clause I put in my contracts is that if they use one of boys that has not yet produce progeny, they may choose any one of my boys for their return service. If the bitch is a maiden, I also include a clause that says they can use their return service on another bitch instead if they prefer. In my own experience I have found most breeders try to be fair but again, be very careful to make sure there is a clear contract that suits both of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Fat-Labrador Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 Thankyou so much everyone for your advice, very much appreciated. To answer your questions, no there was no contract and the stud was proven, it was AI because of an injury he had. I am sure the stud owner will be happy a return service, but I will ensure that I get a contract next time! I suspect that I might have been too late, the vet told me to come back every 5 days for the prog tests, on day 10 she was too low so I came back on day 14 and the prog was through the roof, perhaps the horse had already bolted in the intervening time, or perhaps it was other reasons as previously suggested .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Just a quick comment on the age of bitches, in my breed if you breed a bitch at 2 or below you'll be shot at dawn, 2-4 is considered kind of young but OK with compelling reasons, and over 4 is the standard approach used by many. We also breed older bitches (eg 8 or 9) that are healthy. This has a lot to do with the breed being slow to develop and lacking tests for genetic conditions. So what is considered the right age in one breed doesn't necessarily translate to other breeds. Assume it's a lab, so for the answer to "the best window for breeding a lab bitch" I would go to other lab breeders for advice. Wishing you all the best for the next time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapua Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I am hoping you experienced breeders can help me out as I am new to the breeding scene. That said I have spent hours researching, reading and talking to vets and experts to learn as much as possible over the last 2 years. I imported a NZ maiden bitch who is now nearly 3, both of us passed all the necessary tests with flying colours. I had her prog. tested right up to the day and the stud's owner did a 2 X semen transfers with a home AI kit (this was recommended by the stud's owner). After all this I was heartbroken to find that she is not in whelp. My questions are; Can I get any of the service fee back? Has anyone had any luck with home AI kits? Should I take her to a repro specialist? At what age is a bitch too old to have a first litter? She took 8 months between her last 2 cycles is this unusual? The dog community being the lovely people you are can hopefully help me! Re Service fee :- depends on the arrangement you have with the stud dog owner - generally Lab people allow a return mating to same or a different approved bitch. I think getting the money back is unlikely - but they can owe you a stud at a later time get it in writing though. Repo specialist - why havent you tried a natural tie or a direct transfer? There is no real reason a healthy male cant perform I think there is way too much interferance in reproduction - if he cant perform then try a direct transfer. What was your prog level at the time of mating? Bitches may have released the ovum into the uterus but it wont mature for 48 hours however the male sperm can last 5 days if he is strong and viril, its also the reason why people mate a dog to a bitch 24/36 hours apart. A check by the vet can assess the motility of the sperm. I breed bitches anytime after 2 years old or on their third season whichever comes first. I generally stop breeding by about 5year old. IMO ( and this is only my opinion) ovum degenerates in fertility & quality after 6 years old in large breeds. 8 months between cycles is normal enough for Labs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapua Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I suspect that I might have been too late, the vet told me to come back every 5 days for the prog tests, on day 10 she was too low so I came back on day 14 and the prog was through the roof, perhaps the horse had already bolted in the intervening time, or perhaps it was other reasons as previously suggested .... Yep you missed - prog should be rising about day 10 11 - be hot to trot day 12/13 and you have missed by day 14 - though I would have thought you might have got a couple of pups from a day 14 mating. Mind you the girls can be ready as early as day 10 and late as day 21. Annoyingly the books are based on an average of 100+ assessed bitches - any given individual can be different. If I had to I would prog test from day 11 - 15 daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinaJ Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I suspect that I might have been too late, the vet told me to come back every 5 days for the prog tests, on day 10 she was too low so I came back on day 14 and the prog was through the roof, perhaps the horse had already bolted in the intervening time, or perhaps it was other reasons as previously suggested .... Yep you missed - prog should be rising about day 10 11 - be hot to trot day 12/13 and you have missed by day 14 - though I would have thought you might have got a couple of pups from a day 14 mating. Mind you the girls can be ready as early as day 10 and late as day 21. Annoyingly the books are based on an average of 100+ assessed bitches - any given individual can be different. If I had to I would prog test from day 11 - 15 daily. Each bitch is different, each cycle is different.....my baseline prog test on my girls first mating was at day 4 of her cycle (she comes in every 4 months) it was 48, she was mated the next day and this mating resulted in 14 puppies (natural mating) This last litter was by the result of a surgical AI at Sandown by Dr Mat, her baseline prog test was day 3 and that prog test was 7.3, day 5 was 12.8, day 7 was 37.8 and she had a surgical AI that day and that resulted in 10 puppies. With regard to age, we do not breed our bitches until they are AT LEAST 22 months old. Jetts first litter was whelped just days before her 3rd birthday. Her 2nd litter she was 4 and 1/2. If I don't get what I want from the litter she will have 1 final litter later next year/early 2014, she will be 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Like SSM said, optimum age differs with breed. In mine as well it would be very rare and not a good thing to breed at less than three years for a maiden litter, and that would be in an early maturing individual. Four or five would be more normal, at physical maturity. Maiden litters are still possible at around 8 or so in fit and healthy bitches. This girl is a lab? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Why was there no natural mating ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Why was there no natural mating ? From reading through the thread, the impression I get is that he has had an injury of some kind???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lolapalooza* Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Im not sure if someone has already said this,I only skimmed the thread but every 5 days for a prog is way too long between, my vet says start at day 7 and we do every day or every second day until she is ready to breed. Im really sorry your girl missed, my first 2 breedings missed too. Its so much excitement and hope. Best of luck for next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Sometimes maiden bitches miss for no particular reason. Whether they don't conceive or re-absorb, I have no idea but it seems to be quite common to miss the first time and conceive the next time. For this reason I recommend that maidens be mated to a local proven stud that can do a natural mating whenever possible. AIs, either fresh or frozen seem to have a much higher success rate in proven bitches. If you try again to the same dog and don't get a litter, there is also the possibility of incompatible lethal genes. Some combinations just don't work but either dog or bitch can be successfully bred to a partner from another line. Repro experts recommend that bitches have their first litter between 18 months and 3 years depending on the size of the dog. The larger the dog the later you leave it. Fertility drops with each season so a bitch with an 8 month cycle can be bred a lot older than one with a 4 month cycle. In Border Collies the first litter is usually around 2-3 but soem leave it until 5-6 and the last litter is sometimes as late as 8-9 years if the bitch has previously whelped with no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Fat-Labrador Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 Thanks so much, I was beginning to stress that my beautiful girl had the issue! I think I'll take other breeders advice over the vets' next time. I suspect that I might have been too late, the vet told me to come back every 5 days for the prog tests, on day 10 she was too low so I came back on day 14 and the prog was through the roof, perhaps the horse had already bolted in the intervening time, or perhaps it was other reasons as previously suggested .... Yep you missed - prog should be rising about day 10 11 - be hot to trot day 12/13 and you have missed by day 14 - though I would have thought you might have got a couple of pups from a day 14 mating. Mind you the girls can be ready as early as day 10 and late as day 21. Annoyingly the books are based on an average of 100+ assessed bitches - any given individual can be different. If I had to I would prog test from day 11 - 15 daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Fat-Labrador Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 That's true, he was keen enough all right! but the vet thought the tie could flare up the injury to his back Why was there no natural mating ? From reading through the thread, the impression I get is that he has had an injury of some kind???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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