The Final Version Of The Document Legislating To End Puppy Farming - T

[Steve]

http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-laws-are-necessary-to-stop-puppy-farming_508.html

[Alyosha]

No info (unless I missed it on a quick scan...) as to whether ANKC breeder registration will be accepted. It seems it should be, as RSPCA should be encouraging those who wish to breed doing so under the umbrella of the ANKC. We have more than enough splinter groups, would be nice to see some functional co-operation for a change.

[Erny]

This might prove to be a volatile question - it's not intended to be. But why would there be anyone who would not want to be registered as breeders with the ANKC? Shouldn't that be the question that is asked and if there are any reasons, ANKC might benefit from knowing those and working to fix? Badly worded question - I have a head ache. Hope the meaning of it comes across ok. Part of my point is that it would hardly be likely that if anyone is into breeding that they'd not know of ANKC (or if they didn't know they wouldn't be many in numbers), so would RSPCA encouragement really make the difference?

Edited April 12, 2012 by Erny

[Rebanne]

1. I am already a registered breeder.

2. I already microchip my pups as required.

3. Happy to have my rego number and bitches microchip info included in puppy's microchip info.

4. Not happy to be forced to display my rego number in advertisements. Anyone who buys a pup from me gets the pups paperwork which includes my rego number and if item 3 is passed I will be forever linked to any pup I bred via the microchip number.

5. Already comply with ANKC standards for breeding.

6. Needs very careful reading, very carefull.

[mirawee]

This might prove to be a volatile question - it's not intended to be. But why would there be anyone who would not want to be registered as breeders with the ANKC? Shouldn't that be the question that is asked and if there are any reasons, ANKC might benefit from knowing those and working to fix? Badly worded question - I have a head ache. Hope the meaning of it comes across ok. Part of my point is that it would hardly be likely that if anyone is into breeding that they'd not know of ANKC (or if they didn't know they wouldn't be many in numbers), so would RSPCA encouragement really make the difference?

Working dog breeders don't like the ANKC's insistence on type over ability.

There are dog breeds (which breed true) which aren't acknowledged by the ANKC.

They are the main reasons people aren't ANKC registered but have dogs registered with another organisation :)

A lot of people who breed don't know much about the ANKC since they aren't into "breeding pedigree dogs". They don't think the cost of registration is worthwhile for most people... But that is just their excuse not to pay the fees or in a lot of cases health test

[Kavik]

This might prove to be a volatile question - it's not intended to be. But why would there be anyone who would not want to be registered as breeders with the ANKC? Shouldn't that be the question that is asked and if there are any reasons, ANKC might benefit from knowing those and working to fix? Badly worded question - I have a head ache. Hope the meaning of it comes across ok. Part of my point is that it would hardly be likely that if anyone is into breeding that they'd not know of ANKC (or if they didn't know they wouldn't be many in numbers), so would RSPCA encouragement really make the difference?

There are the alternate registries for working dogs eg Working Kelpie Council, there is a registry for Koolies and one for working Border Collies as well.

Whoops was typing same time as mirawee

Edited April 12, 2012 by Kavik

[LizT]

This might prove to be a volatile question - it's not intended to be. But why would there be anyone who would not want to be registered as breeders with the ANKC? Shouldn't that be the question that is asked and if there are any reasons, ANKC might benefit from knowing those and working to fix? Badly worded question - I have a head ache. Hope the meaning of it comes across ok. Part of my point is that it would hardly be likely that if anyone is into breeding that they'd not know of ANKC (or if they didn't know they wouldn't be many in numbers), so would RSPCA encouragement really make the difference?

I would imagine it is more a case of those the ANKC cannot/will not accept such as purpose breed cross breeds (dare I say D.Dogs?) and those who breed for the Pet Shop Industry.

Oh, and of course working dog lines of variable and non determinable 'type'.

Edited April 12, 2012 by LizT

[WreckitWhippet]

Number 6 means they can seize my dogs, have a court hand over ownership, charge me for the cost of care and all before I'm proven guilty.

and there's not a damn thing I could do about it, they still answer to no one.

[Christina]

Number 5 the mandatory standards for the conduct of dog breeding is also open to interpretation so I wonder which "expert" decides this one ?

If it means concrete cleanable floors & minimum cage sizes & no whelping in the house etc the puppy farms may be on a winner here while my spoilt like house doggies are not approved of. Number 6 is frightening.

I think commercial puppy farms who adhere to legal requirements are going to be the only place to get a dog in the future at this rate.

[Steve]

Number 5 the mandatory standards for the conduct of dog breeding is also open to interpretation so I wonder which "expert" decides this one ?

If it means concrete cleanable floors & minimum cage sizes & no whelping in the house etc the puppy farms may be on a winner here while my spoilt like house doggies are not approved of. Number 6 is frightening.

I think commercial puppy farms who adhere to legal requirements are going to be the only place to get a dog in the future at this rate.

If you go to the first link under the text it tells you the finer details.- what is on that page is only a summary.

[Christina]

Read it all now.

Some good, some over controlled like registration to breed with only 1 bitch.

Don't like the making all states the same part. SA is very reasonable for dog & cat breeders unlike Victoria. Nice to have a choice on where you live to suit your lifestyle.

I still can't see how this legislation will stop commercial puppy farming ?

[Linda K]

given what was said at DPI yesterday, certainly not on the agenda there - they started with the given of commercial breeding of cats and dogs will be allowed to continue -0 the only points really being discussed was whether people who do not get the DAB exemption now (ie breeders who belong to a registered body, namely DOGS VIC or any of the 3 cat bodies), and who have 3 or more fertile females, but less than 10, need to comply with the exact same requirements, or whether they are able to house raise their lesser no. All people registered or not, who have 10 or more must comply with the large scale arrangements. The only people really upset about that feeling from the meeting was the rather vocal puppy farmer up the back, and the anti puppy farmers who felt everyone should not even be doing it, (and funnily enough, applauded every comment from the puppy farmer - bet they had no idea he was one, or they would have been horrified they were supporting him). Will read this with interest, as the impression given was Vic had no intention of trying to go with other states, as the hierachy of laws animal breeding comes under would not make that practical. Also stranger was Deb Tranter not saying anything at all for the whole meeting

[The Spotted Devil]

Linda K - a good summary of the seminar I think :) I had very similar impressions (incl of those who were quite vocal!) and I think DPI explained the process and legislation very clearly.

[Steve]

Read it all now.

Some good, some over controlled like registration to breed with only 1 bitch.

Don't like the making all states the same part. SA is very reasonable for dog & cat breeders unlike Victoria. Nice to have a choice on where you live to suit your lifestyle.

I still can't see how this legislation will stop commercial puppy farming ?

It wont - there is no intention of stopping commercial breeding - never has been. I keep saying that over and over and Im accused of supporting puppy farmers but we were at that meeting and there is absolutely no way that there will be an intention to stop commercial breeding.

Its about knowing who is breeding and being able to get them on administrative issues as well as ensuring they comply with their over regulated and stupid mandatory codes. Everything they do makes it more likely that people will have factory type conditions with lots of outlay and a need to breed large numbers to get their money back. Everything they do advantages those who do breed commercially over those who breed dogs as a hobby.

Again - its ground hog day - unless we get it and see that what we think is a puppy farmer isnt what they think it is and it isnt what they will be legislating against [or for] no one really has a clue about what they are advocating or who is on the right side and how it will really impact on hobby breeders, supply and demand and the future of our breeds.

A puppy farmer is someone who breeds dogs in substandard conditions and doesn't comply with administrative requirements which are set in mandatory codes .Its not someone who breeds 10000 puppies a year unless they do that without regard for the mandatory codes,laws and regs.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Steve

[Sheridan]

To my mind a puppyfarmer is a commercial dog breeder as if they're cows going to market. It has nothing to do with substandard conditions.

[Erny]

To my mind a puppyfarmer is a commercial dog breeder as if they're cows going to market. It has nothing to do with substandard conditions.

But that is subject to, well, subjectivity. How would you write up a definition of what constitutes "as if they're cows going to market" ?

[Steve]

To my mind a puppyfarmer is a commercial dog breeder as if they're cows going to market. It has nothing to do with substandard conditions.

Yes - for me too and obviously for Oscars Law and many other people - but its doesn't matter what WE think the definition should be because the only thing that counts is what its defined as and accepted as when they come to legislate against it .

We really do need to understand this as when we have different starting places and you think we are protesting one thing when they think we are protesting another all we do is constantly create an environment which is more beneficial for a large scale commercial operator to work under than it is for small breeders.

This isn't me supporting commercial breeders its me again trying to explain that the definition was set for the purposes of legislation and "the way forward"

If ever we can just agree that even though we think the definition should be what we think it is and accept whet its being defined as at legislative level we may just be able to work together and be clear about what it is we are protesting and actually do something about what is clearly now showing as unintended consequences.

[Christina]

Until breeders understand what exactly it all means in relation to themselves I guess they should be protesting any new laws or regulations.

There are enough laws in place to see that dogs are not neglected or treated cruelly.

If they can't enforce those we have what is the point of all these new ones ?

We know what legislaters & the mostly haven't got a clue about dog breeding general public want but what do breeders actually want to happen ?

Every time new laws are made regarding dogs & cats it seems to me to be the way backwards not forward.

[Lhok]

That number six is a bit troublesome. They can sell your dogs if they think the dogs would be at risk going back to you? Who makes that decision? and what if you win the court case do they go and get your dogs back if they have already on sold them?

I'm trying to wrap my head around all this as one day I would like to become a breeder eventually but I can't really make sense of it. Will I need to have concrete floors and the dogs in kennel runs away from the house and the like? How do breeders get the permission to breed on the average suburban block? It probably is all in the paper but I am missing it Can someone help me make sense of it?

--Lhok

Editing to add I just read that if your bitch produces an offspring that has a problem behaviourally or physically that you are obligated to exclude them from the breeding program what exactly do they mean by that? If your bitch produces a pup that has a malformation you have never seen and it is a one off you have to desex the bitch?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Lhok

[Steve]

Until breeders understand what exactly it all means in relation to themselves I guess they should be protesting any new laws or regulations.

There are enough laws in place to see that dogs are not neglected or treated cruelly.

If they can't enforce those we have what is the point of all these new ones ?

We know what legislaters & the mostly haven't got a clue about dog breeding general public want but what do breeders actually want to happen ?

Every time new laws are made regarding dogs & cats it seems to me to be the way backwards not forward.

A license or a licence they call a registration is a temporary revocable permit that allows the licensee to have something, or to do something that would be illegal to have, or to do without the license. It makes dog breeding and selling your puppies illegal. It turns over all ownership, and use rights to the licensing agency which can at anytime, inspect, confiscate,suspend, revoke, or halt issuance of the license. [breeder number] Licensure is a taking by government without compensation. If you live in a city, town, municipality, or state that requires dog breeder licensing, then the act of dog breeding or selling a puppy has been made illegal without permission of government. They can at any time change the rules and leave you unable to comply. When we agree to license ourselves to breed dogs we agree to give over our ownership and breeder right to the licensing agency,which can at any time revoke our use rights. We grant them absolute controlover our animals. They can come onto our real property, and remove ourtransitory property (dogs) without due process of law for even minor breaches. The fact that we see these animals as we do our family,that we love them and want to protect them and we have a fear that the system is easily infiltrated by animal rights and potential corruption isinconsequential.

So we get to a point whereyou have to be treated as a potential criminal and animal abuser because you happen to want to breed a litter of puppies - or own an entire dog even if you never want to breed it - property rights and privacy and freedom to make choices according to your own variables is out the window and we will just be led off like lambs to the slaughter as no other breeder of any other species would ever stand for. I can just see horse, sheep,cattle, pig,chicken breeders standing still for those who have no real idea of breeding their species to over regulate them and dictate when they can breed,what they can breed them to and how often etc.

We should be able to stand proud of what we do and not have to constantly defend ourselves and our property because now and then someone somewhere mucks it up. There seems to be a total lack of care or understanding that for some of us our dogs are our family and the fear that may have them simply taken from us and our freedom to just live with them and enjoy their company,make daily decisions on what is best for them and do what some one has determined commercial breeders have to do is the same as having to live with a fear that someone could come in and take our kids off us and we never see them again.

But wait - as long as we are doing the right thing we shouldn't be concerned about losing our basic freedom, property,privacy and free trade rights because as someone who owns an entire dog you are potentially pond scum even if you have no intention to breed but simply don't want to desex your dogs. Anything that stops puppy farming is good - right?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Steve