trifecta Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Sad day at the vet today, our GSD x has a large bony mass on the lower jaw at the back of his mouth. We have had him for 8 years & estimate his age to be around 9.5-10 years. He weighs in at about 32-33kg. The diagnosis is osteosarcoma. We have been given the option of being referred to a specialist surgeon, but the vet also gave us cautionary advice concerning radical jaw surgery, post-operative care, recovery time & how a large breed dog of this age would cope. The lump has come up quickly & is growing rapidly. We do not know at this stage if it has metastasized. I am disinclined to put an animal I dearly love through losing most of his jaw - I have done some reading this morning....most jaw surgeries & reconstuctions seem to take place on toy & small dogs. We cannot believe Rogan has cancer, he is well, full of vitality & very fit for a dog of his age. Naturally we are both devstated, but I am finding it difficult to discuss the options (if any) with my partner who becomes very upset. I know others of you on this board have faced or are facing similar dilemmas (just can't bring myself to do searches at this point!), & if you could share your experiences & thoughts, I would be very grateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I haven't had this happen to me, but have had a client whose dog suffered this. Dog was a large bred, older girl. She had the surgery, but unfortunately it was too late for her as it had spread. She's still alive but is on a lot of meds and her quality of life is getting less and less. Its a very bad situation *hugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I have a friend whose pointer cross type dog got this. She opted for PTS for the dogs sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 PM cNr, her Rotty Sophie had the same thing.. She treated with chemo and holistic and Sophie lived a decent amount of time, pain free... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Thank you for your responses, it is good to have input from people who are detached from the situation & I am very grateful. Today we went to see another vet for a second opinion. This should have been the first opinion as it is our vet of choice - he is very hard to get to see, always booked out! He has given us some hope, thinks the tumour is actually on the side of the jaw & is growing outwards, not inwards. He doesn't think the jaw bone is mushy & that the cancer is not as advanced as the other vet; the teeth are not affected. After more radiography he will make a decision, but thinks he may be able to chisel away the tumour & hopefully scrape any cancerous cells from the bone to get a good margin. He is a wonderful & very skilled vet, I have seen him work miracles, so we are very happy to be guided by his judgement. Of course there are risks, such as pathological fractures, but at least we are doing something & not just sitting on our hands. I also have a long reading list for the weekend..... will probably be an expert on holistic treatments by Monday :laugh: At least I can laugh now, things are definitely brighter in this household although we know we are offered only a slim chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Thank you for your responses, it is good to have input from people who are detached from the situation & I am very grateful. Today we went to see another vet for a second opinion. This should have been the first opinion as it is our vet of choice - he is very hard to get to see, always booked out! He has given us some hope, thinks the tumour is actually on the side of the jaw & is growing outwards, not inwards. He doesn't think the jaw bone is mushy & that the cancer is not as advanced as the other vet; the teeth are not affected. After more radiography he will make a decision, but thinks he may be able to chisel away the tumour & hopefully scrape any cancerous cells from the bone to get a good margin. He is a wonderful & very skilled vet, I have seen him work miracles, so we are very happy to be guided by his judgement. Of course there are risks, such as pathological fractures, but at least we are doing something & not just sitting on our hands. I also have a long reading list for the weekend..... will probably be an expert on holistic treatments by Monday :laugh: At least I can laugh now, things are definitely brighter in this household although we know we are offered only a slim chance. Sending positive thoughts your way :) Fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Thank you for your responses, it is good to have input from people who are detached from the situation & I am very grateful. Today we went to see another vet for a second opinion. This should have been the first opinion as it is our vet of choice - he is very hard to get to see, always booked out! He has given us some hope, thinks the tumour is actually on the side of the jaw & is growing outwards, not inwards. He doesn't think the jaw bone is mushy & that the cancer is not as advanced as the other vet; the teeth are not affected. After more radiography he will make a decision, but thinks he may be able to chisel away the tumour & hopefully scrape any cancerous cells from the bone to get a good margin. He is a wonderful & very skilled vet, I have seen him work miracles, so we are very happy to be guided by his judgement. Of course there are risks, such as pathological fractures, but at least we are doing something & not just sitting on our hands. I also have a long reading list for the weekend..... will probably be an expert on holistic treatments by Monday :laugh: At least I can laugh now, things are definitely brighter in this household although we know we are offered only a slim chance. I strongly suggest before you consider any surgery that you consult with a qualified canine oncology specialist. Sophie's osteosarcoma was also on the outer edge of her mandible. Her teeth were perfectly white, strong and clean. She was 6yo at diagnosis. I had a premolar removed to collect a good size biopsy of the gum (not bone) under the extracted tooth. She was diagnosed as a highly malignant osteosarcoma. Sophie's tumour was removed in the course of the surgery to collect the biopsy and it grew back very quickly as osteosarcomas do. In fact a tumour was not even evident at that point, it was a seemingly painful, slightly inflamed gum causing her to avoid chewing on that side. The chewing on only one side alerted me that there was a problem. Unfortunately osteosarcoma tumours do not sit on top of bone nor are they able to be scraped away. They are an integral part of the bone. In order to get clear margins, surgical removal of part of the mandible would be necessary. Much the same as any other type of malignant tumour, it must be excised and hopefully the surgeon in some cases can get lucky get clear margins. There is no way of scraping away malignant cells. I think you may have misunderstood your vet. Have you have lung xrays done to see if there is evidence of metastasis at this stage? That should also be a consideration along with bloods for histopathology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Thank you for your valuable advice, cNr, you have helped me formulate some more questions to ask when we go in this evening. Yes, bloods have been taken & the lungs are to be x-rayed today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Thank you for your valuable advice, cNr, you have helped me formulate some more questions to ask when we go in this evening. Yes, bloods have been taken & the lungs are to be x-rayed today. Sophie's journey with osteosarcoma of the mandible is in the palliative care section in the thread started by oonga titled, "Unwell Rotties". I didn't start a separate thread for Sophie but most of our progress and experience is in that thread if you can wade through it. It's a long thread. I wish you well and hope for a sucessful outcome. Please keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 How did the first vet reach the diagnosis of osteosarcoma? You really need a biopsy to be 100% about what specific type of tumour it is. An osetosarc as CnR said, is highly malignant intimately involved in the bone and arises from it- you can't simply scrape away cells, as it is likely to very quickly grow back and may even grow back more aggressively. Other types of tumour may be more amenable to removal without involving the jaw bone itself. I wish Rogan all the best, please make sure you have the correct diagnosis before proceeding with any further treatments or make any tough decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 Sorry I have been slow to update but there have been a couple of developments since I last posted. Rogan underwent surgery last week to remove the lump as it was growing into the tooth above & the lump was becoming red & raw. The histopathology report confirms a productive osteosarcoma of the mandible. Sadly the cancer has already metastasised with tumours evident on the lungs. We will not be following up with chemotherapy but we are consulting a naturopath in the hope we can give some support to his immune system. We have been told we will probably have him for 3-4 months, though to look at him now, he looks the picture of health. A few days ago we went out for a good hike at Rogan's favourite spot near a waterfall. It is difficult terrain, steep & rocky. We walked for a good couple of hours & all the dogs had a ball. Maybe it will be our last visit together to the waterfall? Who knows?..... but we will enjoy him while we can & look after him to the best of our ability until it is time to say farewell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I've been thinking you and wondering at the outcome of the further investigations. I'm glad you updated us but I'm very sorry indeed that the news is not good. Sadly this is typical of osteosarcoma of the mandible. It's truly vicious. I was very surprised to say the least, that any vet would say malignant cells could be scraped away from the bone. I figured you must have misunderstood that vet. When Sophie had lung xrays there was no sign of metastasis. However it takes millions of cells before they're evident on xray so I would think her cancer probably had metastasised but it just wasn't yet evident. It was only a matter of time. Sophie lived happily and pain free for a year after her first biopsy. After her second biopsy just a few short weeks later she was given the prognosis of just a few weeks. She way outlived her prognosis. I gave her a number of supplements in an attempt to boost her immune system. I checked all supplements she had with the oncologist first. Many supplements are contraindicated with the particular chemo drug Sophie was taking every day and I didn't want to make any mistakes. It goes without saying, the most important thing for Rogan is strong, effective pain relief. I hope your vet has provided you with this and will continue to do so. Osteosarcoma is an excruciatingly painful disease. I tried to keep Sophie mentally stimulated by taking her to a new park every day. She loved it and thoroughly enjoyed herself. Your trip to the waterfall sounds great for Rogan, I hope you can take him there again while he's feeling well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 It's truly vicious. I was very surprised to say the least, that any vet would say malignant cells could be scraped away from the bone. I figured you must have misunderstood that vet. At that stage there was no histo to confirm the diagnosis. He didn't think it presented as osteosarc but another form of bone tumour. The mass was cartilagenous when a needle was inserted & at that point there was no evidence of metastasis..... first round of X-rays were inconclusive but the second clearly showed metastasis. And yes, I probably misconstrued some of what was said... Thankfully I have not had to make decisions alone; after the initial shock, my partner has been a rock. Some of our decisions have been coloured by my own personal experience with cancer, but at the end of the day we are comfortable with the path we have chosen. Thank you for your advice, cNr, it is much appreciated. I can tell that Sophie was a special girl, but lucky to have an owner such as yourself :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Thanks for updating and I am sorry to hear the news is not better... Wishing you many happy days with your boy... And more trips to the waterfall he enjoys so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted June 3, 2012 Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 Well here we are about 7 weeks since I first posted...... just wanted to update: Rogan is still able to exercise quite well, we walked about 10km this afternoon; he was glad to be out & about after a couple of days of rain. The lump on the lower jaw is growing back & is almost the size it was when we first sought veterinary advice on the 11th April; however, his breathing, even when sleeping is rhythmic & does not appear laboured. We consulted a holistic vet about a month ago & have tried a number of supplements & holistic treatments. The ground up apricot kernels did not agree with him & were abandoned after a couple of weeks. We are sort of following the Budwig diet of flaxseed oil & cottage cheese, although he cannot consume the recommended amount. He has 5 mushroom extract, is supplemented with vitamins A,D & E, as well as high doses of vitamin C which he is tolerating well. This week I have introduced green tea (matcha) powder, which he loves! I have changed Rogan's diet which is now modelled on cooling foods according to Traditional Chinese Medicine. He is still as strong as an ox & loving life! Every day is a bonus & we are grateful he is in realtively good health & not in pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Trifecta that is the same principles of the diet that I used with Ollie.. Obviously a very different cancer but I I do believe it makes a difference. Ollie liked green tea, I would make me and him a cup and let his cool.. He loved it... The high doses of vit c will help with general well being, it is a great 'tonic' for dogs. We used the 5 mushroom drops for years. The flax oil can be given easier with sardines or tuna as it helps hide the flavour a bit. As well as mixed into cottage cheese. Thanks for the update, glad to hear it is all going well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 Sadly, Rogan lost his battle to osteosarcoma on Thursday, 2nd August. The tumour became insufferably large & had become rampant about 3 weeks ago. Overall Rogan's health was good. The vet could not believe how well he looked apart from his dear distorted face He had such a gorgeous Kelpie mask! :) The metastases to the lungs were obviously growing much slower, as constriction of the airways was only barely audible via stethoscope. I can only put this down to good diet & the nutritional supplements he was receiving. Only a week ago we had a great walk in the bush for a good hour or so. He loved the bush even though he came from the city originally! On Thursday evening he chased a rabbit & his tooth must have gone through the mass. It bled profusely & the bleeding could not be stopped. Euthanasia was our only option. To be honest I could not see how he could possibly be still eating, he was only on light pain medication; yet he was happy, looked forward to meal & walk times, & loved lying in the sun in the back of the ute. Next week I will write a tribute to him in Rainbow Bridge, but for now the sense of loss is too immense & too raw to do him justice. RIP Big fella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9angel Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I am so sorry for the loss of your beautiful boy, Trifecta. R.I.P. Rogan. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I'm so sorry Trifecta. I also lost my beloved Rottweiler to mandibular osteosarcoma. I'm so very sorry you lost your boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I am so sorry Trifecta... RIP Rogan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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