Electronic Table

[canine fun sports]

To be fair, they should allow us to condition our dogs to a new table before competition, but that is not likely to happen

I tried my best to ignore this but I have to comment: I am getting a little sick of people believing that we are spending a lot of our own money to improve our sport in an attempt to be unfair to other competitors.

I have not seen anyone here insinuate that the 2012 Nationals Committee are attempting to disadvantage us "out of staters".

Where, in any of these posts are out-of-of staters mentioned??? Or any reference to the Nationals. In fact, we are discussing the Armidale trial.

[kelpiechick]

To be fair, they should allow us to condition our dogs to a new table before competition, but that is not likely to happen

I tried my best to ignore this but I have to comment: I am getting a little sick of people believing that we are spending a lot of our own money to improve our sport in an attempt to be unfair to other competitors.

Now I'm confused. So you are not referring to all the criticism that has recently come via agility aust. list mainly from 'out of staters'? Out of staters now have nothing to do with this ? So the criticism you are getting a little sick of has come from local NSW competitors ? Is that right ?

It's terrific that those attending this Armidale trial and several others are getting a chance to try their dogs on it before Nats as everyone keeps pointing out. But I have recently read a lot of criticism that had nothing to do with this particualr trial and everything to do with Nationals and I'm betting that most other people reading this thread have interpreted it the same way that Jess did.

BTW -now that we have brought up Nats : Will the same courtesy be extended to 'out of staters' attending Nats ? I am assuming in order to create this level playing field that I keep hearing about it will be set up on the Tuesday before Nats starts and all 'out of staters' will be allotted a time to have a go.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an excellent piece of technology and will benefit agility in the long run, but I totally understand where many 'out of staters' are coming from with it being introduced at a National competition - especially when its use won't constitue a level playing field either with some heights having to use it and some not, depending on the whim of each individual judge.

I believe a SA judge had an excellent solution to this over the weekend and would hope that maybe some others would follow his example.

Apologies for hijacking an 'Armidale' thread :) Sheena, would love to know how your dog goes with it after you get to give it a try.

[Chezy]

considering you obv have read the agility site posts, you should have read that the table will be made available at the nats for practice .

I have decided that after much reading of lots of negative it is time to add some positive . I think it is great to see progress and new , I always loo forward to a challenger and these new things add to it , no dif to a difficult course , where some whine and moan and point out where they will stuff up, i and others look at how to succeed , making the win more worthy

I put my rescue girl who is scared of a sparrows fart on the table, she looked , but was not petrified , I didn't stick her straight on it and let her find out the hard way, I walked her past it while other dogs were on it then walked her up to it and set it off while she was on the ground , by the time o put her on it she was fine

I have great respect for the committee and don't envy them the task they have taken on , much work for little acknowledgement

[canine fun sports]

Now I'm confused. So you are not referring to all the criticism that has recently come via agility aust. list mainly from 'out of staters'? Out of staters now have nothing to do with this ? So the criticism you are getting a little sick of has come from local NSW competitors ? Is that right ?

As said in several areas of discussion (although I do not do facebook), it is the hypercritical people, (whether they are interstate, Armidale, before or after the Nationals etc) who have not even seen the table, and the lack of trust in the people providing it (whether that is myself and Keith or the NSW Agility committee) to give people the maximum opportunity possible to practice it beforehand. In this thread we WERE talking about the use of the table in Armidale.

Yes, it will be there on the Tuesday afternoon, and each morning - assuming I do not have a fatal car accident on my way to the venue, or that Keith and I are not dealing with some other emergency situation. Can I be any clearer, yet again. And, if you have done a little homework with a "noise maker" under any table at home before you get here, you should not have any issue at all.

Once again, it will be up to the individual judges whether they use it and how they use it.

Am I cranky about people's attitude - bloody right I am.

Edited April 11, 2012 by canine fun sports

[sheena]

To be fair, they should allow us to condition our dogs to a new table before competition, but that is not likely to happen

I tried my best to ignore this but I have to comment: I am getting a little sick of people believing that we are spending a lot of our own money to improve our sport in an attempt to be unfair to other competitors.

Now I'm confused. So you are not referring to all the criticism that has recently come via agility aust. list mainly from 'out of staters'? Out of staters now have nothing to do with this ? So the criticism you are getting a little sick of has come from local NSW competitors ? Is that right ?

It's terrific that those attending this Armidale trial and several others are getting a chance to try their dogs on it before Nats as everyone keeps pointing out. But I have recently read a lot of criticism that had nothing to do with this particualr trial and everything to do with Nationals and I'm betting that most other people reading this thread have interpreted it the same way that Jess did.

BTW -now that we have brought up Nats : Will the same courtesy be extended to 'out of staters' attending Nats ? I am assuming in order to create this level playing field that I keep hearing about it will be set up on the Tuesday before Nats starts and all 'out of staters' will be allotted a time to have a go.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an excellent piece of technology and will benefit agility in the long run, but I totally understand where many 'out of staters' are coming from with it being introduced at a National competition - especially when its use won't constitue a level playing field either with some heights having to use it and some not, depending on the whim of each individual judge.

I believe a SA judge had an excellent solution to this over the weekend and would hope that maybe some others would follow his example.

Apologies for hijacking an 'Armidale' thread :) Sheena, would love to know how your dog goes with it after you get to give it a try.

I will keep you up to date Kelpiechick on how she reacts. I have trained her to do a beautiful table performance with lovely instant drop & stay. I would be a bit disapointed if we missed out on a Q

for the one & only reason that electronic table put her off She is a bit noise phobic & trial situations can stress her out.

[DeltaCharlie]

I am just wondering how dogs might react to the table...those dogs who have been conditioned to things like electronic containment systems for examples & electric/ultrasonic collars that give out a beep warning before they are zapped. Just wondering...none of my dogs have experience with those devices but there are dogs who have. To be fair, if things like electronic tables are the way of the future in dog trials, then every club is going to have to get one, so its dogs can be trained to use it....just like the wee-saw.

We use an anti-barking vibrating collar on a few of our dogs that makes a similar beeping noise as a warning. The only dog of ours (we put 7 on it) who even acknowledged the noise on the table is a dog that has never worn that collar. When we initially played the noise at home around those used to the collar beep we got a few ears back and uncertain dogs. Once we actually saw the table though not one of those dogs made the connection. The bigger concern we had was that it sounds an awful lot like the countdown beeps for the start of a flyball race LOL

I think people need to wait until they see the table before they pass judgement on it. What is the point of creating an issue until you know whether the issue exists in the first place? I'm speaking from experience here, I was a little apprehensive about it and keen to try our guys on the table last weekend but it turned out I had nothing to be concerned about. I know it is hard when you have been listening to all the to and fro on various lists to approach it with an open mind, but for the sake of the dogs (especially if you think they may be concerned by it) don't work yourself up about it beforehand or the dogs really will think something is up with the table as they will pick up on the change in your approach to the obstacle.

[kelpiechick]

considering you obv have read the agility site posts, you should have read that the table will be made available at the nats for practice .

I have great respect for the committee and don't envy them the task they have taken on , much work for little acknowledgement

The last time I read something about it was that it would be made available if time permitted - so now that I know it will definitely be made available I will pass that info. on to all who are going from Vic. (probably not me though btw, so I haven't followed the posts hanging off every word if it was confirmed that it would be definitely be there before)

I have great respect for the committee from every state when it is their turn to organise such a big event - it has been done lots of times before and very successfully- also probably for little acknowledgement, but I don't ever remember so many opinions about a related issue running so high for some reason but I guess that's the risk you take by introducing equipment that appears to have some 'controversy' associated with it for all the reasons that others have put forward. (Whether they are valid or not - Personally I'm not offering any opinion either way as I won't be there to use it)

And I think it's great that so many people have been able to jump in and say that their dog used it without problem and are rushing to pass that on ..... but you are all lucky to have been in the position where it is available in your state and have had experience with it well before Nats. Hindsight is a wonderful thing to have. Put yourself in the place of someone who might be travelling the whole way across the country, may have a dog that is a bit sensitive to such things (not to mention copping it for the first time in the highly charged atmosphere of a National competition) and then finds out on the day before competition that despite all their conditioning, their dog still has an issue with it. I respect their right to feel the way they do and be allowed to voice their opinion (without having people jump down their throats) just as much as the organisers' right to use it.

[gspx3]

Just a suggestion to all those who maintain their dogs are disadvantaged by the beeps from the table.

Try and count up how many appliances etc you have in your home that beep. For starters there are: the microwave, the refrigerator which beeps when you don't close the door properly, the washing machine, the keyless entry for your car, traffic lights (especially those louder ones for blind people), there are also many alarms that beep as well.

I was present at CFS when the table timer was unpacked and brought up for us to try. My girl was totally unfazed as were all the other dogs there on the day - except for one of CFS's dogs who looked under the table to see where the sound was coming from but showed no other interest in it. My old girl was right beside the table - she is extremely noise phobic and was not in the least put out by the noise. She is not a trained dog - is 10 years old and I have had her for only 6 months.

It all seems like a "get at NSW" attack to me. And, no, I am not a native NSW but have lived here a while so I have no great loyalty to either my birth state or my live in state.

I have steadfastly stayed out of this debate (debacle??) but enough is enough. Just stop and think before you jump in feet first.

[sheena]

Thanks everyone for the feedback on the table...looking forward to trying it. I only just heard of it a few days ago & everyone I spoke to that's going to the trial seemed to be panicking a bit. Good to know we can do a bit of practice on it before the trial & also good to know that if my dog doesn't like it, I can opt to have a judges count instead. Us country people don't get as many opportunities as those that live in the cities, to try out these new ideas, & the trials we can attend are few & far between compared to city people, so every "Q" is gold & it may be another month before we get to have another go. I hope it didn't come across that I was critisising the table or the organizers, I just wanted feedback on the problems, if any, I might face with it. :) I'll report back on Monday as to how we go.

Edited April 12, 2012 by sheena

[Blossom78]

I tried the table at the Canberra Easter trials as well. I also was confident there wouldn't be an issue. After all, Toto is fine with all sorts of really loud noises.

Okay, he isn't enthusiastic about lifting-up-the-roof-loud dolby surround movies, or knocking-books-off-the-shelves loud music, but he just calmy removes himself from the immediate vicinity, or endures it cause he can't be bothered to go away during movies. :p

The table, he completely freaked and ran to the other end of the paddock. hrmz. So I hung around the table and rewarded him heavily as others were using the table next to us, but he still would have moved away if he hadn't been on lead by then. The critical distance must be somewhere between 5 and 10m. Didn't really get to test is extensively, as people were getting annoyed with the beeping and asked me to stop (and I thought that was what the table was there for, but hey!)

Someone pointed out to me at some stage that it sounds like a reversing truck - but even then it did not click for me.

Discussing it with hubby in the evening he pointed out the obvious (yeah, I am a bit slow at time, really good that I have Toto! :p ):

The table sounds like a REVERSING TRUCK!

Toto is, first and foremost, my best friend. Then he is my assistance dog. And only after that, he is my dog-sports-buddy.

So it is a really good thing that he alerts ditzy me to reversing trucks or any other hazards I might not be aware of. To me, that is much more important than beeping tables.

I will not desensitise him to beepy tables.

This means that I will have to check before entering a trial that there are non-beepy tables or that the judge is okay with turning the beep off for our run.

If the beeping is mandatory at any stage, then we will have to stop agility (or discuss that bridge with the ANKC when we get to it)

His alertness is an essential part of his assistance dog work, and I will absolutely not jeopardize that for beepy tables. :)

Apart from that, it does not strike me as the best idea to train dogs to stand still when there is a reversing-truck-noise really close.

I think a sound that sounds different to Australian reversing trucks would have been a much, much better choice.

@gspx3:

Just to be clear, I don't have an issue with noise-producing-tables in general, but with the particular sound that was chosen - as I said, reversing-truck-noise.

Admittedly there is only a handful of people that trial accredited assistance dogs. But for this handful of people (and of course people who's dogs have to be savvy around trucks for professional reasons) the choice of reversing-truck sound seems to be a disadvantage. It kinda puts us on the spot to choose between agility competitions and assistance dog services.

A choice that I think is.... unwise.

If the dog freezes and drops when the microwave goes off - no biggie. A service dog doing that behind a reversing truck. Not cool at all.

Just my 2 cents though.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Blossom78

[Blossom78]

For all those that want to prepare for the nationals, but do not have a beepy-table:

Extract the audio from the video linked above. Cut out the beepy sequence. Save as ringtone to your mobile. Put your mobile under a table. Ring that mobile when the dog is on the table. :)

[PAX]

I dont compete in agility but so many people seem to be worried about the noise of the table bothering the dog.

Is it possible that the beeping (by some remote system) is only heard by the judge?

I think it sounds awesome to have a timer that is fair and exact for each dog when I know milli seconds mean a lot in agility, it should make for better, fairer course times and less stressed judges:)

Hope it gets sorted and calms down before the Nationals as I know the Committee is working so hard to make this a fantastic event, the grounds are awesome. I think the dog community is very lucky to get to use such a great venue.

[sheena]

For all those that want to prepare for the nationals, but do not have a beepy-table:

Extract the audio from the video linked above. Cut out the beepy sequence. Save as ringtone to your mobile. Put your mobile under a table. Ring that mobile when the dog is on the table. :)

:rofl: That is a bit beyond this little black duck. Good point about the assistance dogs & reversing truck sounds. What's the bet my BC girl will firstly cock her head from one side to the other, ears pricked, then jump off & have a look underneath the table for the "birdie" :laugh:

Pax...the beep has to be heard by the handler, so we know when to release the dog & for people who are "slightly" hearing impaired like me, can hear it.

Edited April 12, 2012 by sheena

[PAX]

1334217842[/url]' post='5796723']

1334215118[/url]' post='5796672']

For all those that want to prepare for the nationals, but do not have a beepy-table:

Extract the audio from the video linked above. Cut out the beepy sequence. Save as ringtone to your mobile. Put your mobile under a table. Ring that mobile when the dog is on the table. :)

:rofl: That is a bit beyond this little black duck. Good point about the assistance dogs & reversing truck sounds. What's the bet my BC girl will firstly cock her head from one side to the other, ears pricked, then jump off & have a look underneath the table for the "birdie" :laugh:

Pax...the beep has to be heard by the handler, so we know when to release the dog & for people who are "slightly" hearing impaired like me, can hear it.

Sheena, it is of course a benefit for the handler to hear it and go, was just thinking of ways handlers could stop stressing but judges still have a burdon taking off them.

[PAX]

In my mind, that is the value of a timer table....everyone gets timed the same....should be a good thing as long as it doesn't freak dogs and handlers.I have no doubt it was introduced for fairness but I can understand people's concerns.

[canine fun sports]

Is it possible that the beeping (by some remote system) is only heard by the judge?

As some-one has also said, the point of the table timer is to eliminate the inaccuracy caused by human reaction times, and the rate of counting. So, if the judge only hears it, there is still a large inaccuracy with their cll to the handler.

I, for one, cannot count from 5 to one in exactly the same rate every time, and that is not the only source of inaacuracy. There is my reaction time when the dog hits the table and that error can be quite significant!! Although it shouldn't happen, at the end of a day, a judge will sometimes be guilty of "dog watching" and, although you are often counting in your head, you forget to count out loud. By the time you start counting, there is a large variation in the time on the table. It may not be large enough to be obvious, but you have to remember, these events are timed to 100ths of a second. All these human errors are eliminated with the table counter - the only difference between performances is the reaction time of the handler and dog and that is what we are testing!

The other thing the table timer does, it can accurately monitor whether a dog jumps off early. And there is usually one or two dogs in a trial that you give the benefit of the doubt - did he leave just before I said go. With the table timer, you know if the rapid beeps go off, the dog was there for the required count. If they do not go off, he jumped off early. Very clear cut and not longer and doubt.

The timer, to date, has not failed in competition (but it has not been used a lot, yet. In practice, there have been some rare cases when the has failed (probably 4 times and it has now been jumped on 1000's of times) But its error rate is much lower than mine, and I presume I am not much worse at it than other judges, so I think we can presume its error rate is much lower than that of any human judge.

As a judge that really likes to use the table (in all classes), but sometimes gets mild laryngitis when having to do frequent table counts (not that it shuts me up) I think the table is a fantastic tool.

Cheers

[Blossom78]

1334217842[/url]' post='5796723']

1334215118[/url]' post='5796672']

For all those that want to prepare for the nationals, but do not have a beepy-table:

Extract the audio from the video linked above. Cut out the beepy sequence. Save as ringtone to your mobile. Put your mobile under a table. Ring that mobile when the dog is on the table. :)

:rofl: That is a bit beyond this little black duck. Good point about the assistance dogs & reversing truck sounds. What's the bet my BC girl will firstly cock her head from one side to the other, ears pricked, then jump off & have a look underneath the table for the "birdie" :laugh:

Pax...the beep has to be heard by the handler, so we know when to release the dog & for people who are "slightly" hearing impaired like me, can hear it.

No worries. I can do that for you tomorrow and email the beepy-sound to you as mp3. Just PM me your email addy.If you have an iPhone, let me know, and I'll also attach the beep in apple ringtone format ( drag and drop the file into iTunes and sync to your phone)If you have an android phone..... sorry, I don't do androids, but maybe someone else could help you there once you have the mp3 file. :)

[Blossom78]

I have the table-beep ready to go as mp3 and m4r (iphone ring tone) - if anyone wants me to email one, the other, or both, shoot me a PM with your email addy.

(sry, can't upload those filetypes here)

Cheers!

P.S.: I put 2 beepy sequences in the files - if you need more or less, let me know, can do that, too. :)

[sheena]

I have the table-beep ready to go as mp3 and m4r (iphone ring tone) - if anyone wants me to email one, the other, or both, shoot me a PM with your email addy.

(sry, can't upload those filetypes here)

Cheers!

P.S.: I put 2 beepy sequences in the files - if you need more or less, let me know, can do that, too. :)

Thanks for the offer Blossom, but I am flat out working out how to use my mobile phone & all that other stuff is very foreign to me & I wouldn't know where to start. But thanks very much any way for the kind offer :)

[sheena]

First try out on the table & she hopped off to see what was making the noise underneath...thought it was a birdie. Then I tried her with treats & she took no notice of the beeping, just gave lovely drops & all eyes on me (& the treats). We didn't use it in ADX though, so didn't get to try it out in a run, but I think most dogs were OK with it (in Novice) & it probably helped to distract them & keep them still while the five seconds went. Definately must be tried out before meeting it in comp, though.