Electronic Table

[sheena]

At the agility trial we are going to this weekend at Armidale they are trying out the Electronic Table. From what I have been told, when the dog lands on it, it gives 5 beeps a second apart then goes beep,beep,beep. Does anyone know how the dogs are likely to react to it???? The last trial I went to, was the first time on the new wee-saw, & a lot of dogs jumped off the side. Thankfully, mine wasn't one, but she was a little confused with it To be fair, they should allow us to condition our dogs to a new table before competition, but that is not likely to happen

[wuffles]

Are you on the Agility-Australia Yahoo list? Lots of discussion about it there.

In one of the Canberra trials last weekend the table was set up in a practice ring. From what I observed most dogs were fine with it. Some looked confused but didn't mind. And a small number hated it.

It was used in the Novice Agility ring but the judge let us turn it off, which I did. I would recommend getting your dogs used to quite loud beeping and beeping coming from underneath them before using it in trials.

[FHRP]

To be fair, they should allow us to condition our dogs to a new table before competition, but that is not likely to happen

I think you will find you will have the opportunity to practice on the table before any competition. Canine fun sports, a DOL member will be the one taking the beeping table and so far has allowed every opportunity for pepople to try the table before any competition. It was used at the Canberra trials over the weekend and only in an actual course on Sunday, it was in the warm up ring all day Saturday and half of Sunday. My boys had no issue at all, my GSP didn't take any notice of the noise or cover and my Vizsla gave a slight ear twitch only.

I'm not sure why anyone would put their dog over a wee saw for the first time in a trial though? As much as I dislike the wee saw, my dogs saw it in training before a trial.

Edited April 11, 2012 by FHRP

[pie]

Here's the video of the table timer for anybody interested

[canine fun sports]

First up, amypie, thank you for reposting the link. It has already been posted under the nationals heading and in several other places.

Yes, the table timer is going to Armidale. It will be made available as soon as practicable. By that, I mean that it will probably not be set up as soon as I get there, becasue it will probably be late in the evening and those trying to sleep will probably not appreciate it. It will not be done first thing in the morning, becuse I will first be looking after my own dogs and myself.

It is up to the club and the judge as to where and when it will be used, but to date, each of the clubs have been very happy for me to set it up on a table outside the ring, early in the morning, fefore the trial starts for triallers to give it a go. In fact, early in the morning it can become quite irritating with the thing going off all the time, because everyone is having a go on it.

It will be up to the judge whether it is used or not. Eddy Szmelter used it; Jane Caulton chose not to, becasue she felt the dogs had not had enough opportunity to have a go on it; Keith Millingotn chose to use it but allowed anyone who did not want to use it to opt out and have the judge do the count, with the warning that, due to a human's time to react, the count would probably be less accurate, and probably a little bit longer. I SUSPECT that Jill Kaldor will use it and I have no idea what Gayle Jarvis will choose.

I do recommend that everyone does some prior training, just in case your dog surprises you (or the table's beeps sruprise the dog). So far most dogs just ignore it. Some look a little curious about where the noise is coming from on the first time they jump on, but ignore it the second time. We have had 3 or 4 that I know of that were worried about it, but the owners felt they would be OK with a little extra training.

Advised training techniques:

Get a device that beeps similarly to the table - you can get egg timers, or just record the table noise (from the link) on your phone or similar deivce (from now on this will be referred to as a "noise-maker").

Get your dog used to the noise away from the table.

Put you dog on the table and play the "noise-maker" nearby, say 5 to 10 metres away.

Gradually move your "noise-maker" closer to the table then under the table.

EXTRA PROOFING - repeat the process with all sorts of different noises.

Cheers, Le

Edited to correect my awful typing and grammar

re-edited to add in the extra proofing.

Edited April 11, 2012 by canine fun sports

[canine fun sports]

To be fair, they should allow us to condition our dogs to a new table before competition, but that is not likely to happen

I tried my best to ignore this but I have to comment: I am getting a little sick of people believing that we are spending a lot of our own money to improve our sport in an attempt to be unfair to other competitors.

[DeltaCharlie]

I saw it for the first time last weekend in Canberra. It didn't make much of a difference to me as I was only entered in pairs and jumping last weekend, I won't really need it till the nationals. Delta being in Masters will rarely see a table and Charlie (who is too much of a blockhead to notice anything) doesn't run in AD very often so the only one I will need to really worry about is Whip who showed no visible signs of even noticing the sound when I put him on it. Mind you he is trained at home on a hession tramp bed LOL so if he can cope with the fact that the table is actually solid, taller, and has a different surface to a tramp bed I am sure he can adapt to the fact that it beeps as well.

One thing I will say is that as soon as a club member had arrived with keys to unlock the agility shed Le (CFS) was straight over and asking for the table to be pulled out first so that everyone could have ample opportunity to practise on it in case it was used in a course. She didn't need to rush over and do that, she could have waited until competitors started arriving and setting up, then casually wandered over and asked about the table.

I don't think there is much else that she could have done to better prepare the competitors and their dogs. By the time people started arriving the table was already set up and people could go straight over and line up for a practise. Dogs waiting in line heard the beeps countless times before it was their turn and nobody missed out on an opportunity to practise.

I think the whole table thing has been blown completely out of proportion. Perhaps the nationals wasn't the best place for other states to see it first, as everyone is already that little bit more concerned with how their dogs are going to cope with the arena, the surface etc. The way I look at it though, even if CFS had bought this table 2 years ago... the first time many interstaters would get to see it would still be this years nationals. So what is the difference?

The nationals will be the first time that many interstate dogs are going to see rubberised contacts, I would be more concerned about that than a beeping table that you have a 1 in 5 chance of even seeing anyway (only one beeping table and 5 rings running). Rubberised contacts changed the entire contact performance for my dog who was used to sliding into position, trying to reteach her that she needed to actually pick up her feet to get to the end was a lot harder than exposing her to different noises on a table.

The nationals in 2010 was the first time my dogs had ever seen a lollypop tyre. People like me could have kicked up a stink about not being prewarned that it would possibly be used in courses, but what is the point? You teach your dogs that not everything is black and white, sometimes the same obstacle can look and sound different.

[wuffles]

I would have thought it was blown out of proportion too if my dog hadn't reacted badly to it :laugh:

I have no criticism for Le and it was great to be able to practice at Canberra (we're not entered in Nationals anyway so I have no need to worry in that regard). Now that I know my dog has an issue with it, we will do some training, but I won't put her on it in a trial situation until I'm 100% confident that it's not going to spook her.

[canine fun sports]

The nationals will be the first time that many interstate dogs are going to see rubberised contacts, I would be more concerned about that than a beeping table that you have a 1 in 5 chance of even seeing anyway (only one beeping table and 5 rings running). Rubberised contacts changed the entire contact performance for my dog who was used to sliding into position, trying to reteach her that she needed to actually pick up her feet to get to the end was a lot harder than exposing her to different noises on a table.

I had the opposite problem. My dogs learnt on rubber ship and had great difficulty addapting to some of the surface with less traction. It was certainly responsible for a couple of failures at Pace's first Festival of Agility, and this variation in surface is why I went back to a 2on2off contact on the scramble for murphy - she could not keep a regular stride length on the different surfaces.

You are very correct, Delta Charlie, our dogs have to adapt to a lot of differences.

Cheers,

[DeltaCharlie]

I would have thought it was blown out of proportion too if my dog hadn't reacted badly to it :laugh:

I have no criticism for Le and it was great to be able to practice at Canberra (we're not entered in Nationals anyway so I have no need to worry in that regard). Now that I know my dog has an issue with it, we will do some training, but I won't put her on it in a trial situation until I'm 100% confident that it's not going to spook her.

I knew Ava was one of the ones who had taken a dislike to it, there was another young dog who wasn't overly keen on it either. Both of you have the right attitude though, expose the dog to it, get them used to the noise, and then put them into the trial ring with it when they are comfortable. Its not different to working a dog like Charlie who is scared of chutes, if he isn't comfortable going through them that day, then I avoid them and do more work on it. Or I use NFC in ADAA to work it with a tug toy. I don't avoid trials altogether because there may be a chute in the course.

There is a good chance that most dogs at the nationals won't even see the table. Like I said, a 1 in 5 chance that it will be used in your ring, and then only if the judge happens to want to use it. So, for arguments sake say it is only being used in the indoor ring and the day your height is in there the judge doing agility chooses not to use it, you won't even see it anyway. Then, if you do happen to get into the final it will be in there (given Le is judging :laugh:) but you have to actually make it into the final in the first place.

[Kavik]

I first saw the electronic table at the D2D trial. Initially I was a little apprehensive as this was our first trial in about 6 months and not the ideal circumstances to try new stuff (we took a break due to focus issues), but we had a go on it early in the morning when it was set up along with most other people (thanks Le!) and most dogs including Kaos had no problem wih it. He was fine with it in the trial as well (it was those darned weaves that caused us grief :laugh: ). It was also our first time seeing a weesaw in competition, though at training the seesaw was lowered (the one time this year that training wasn't rained out that the seesaw came out that is!) so he had tried a lowered seesaw before (though training is ADAA specs).

Actually I think my biggest equipment issue is the dogwalk as I train at an ADAA club, so has slats on the dogwalk, and trial mostly ANKC where there are no slats. And our performance on the dogwalk is noticeably different and slower/more hesitant at trials.

[Podengo]

What's a wee saw?

We don't have tables any more in NZ agility... I did quite like them, electronic timing sounds like a great idea.

[pie]

Weesaw is the nickname for the new ANKC seesaw - it is lower (approximately half the height - about 600mm at the highest point I believe, and about 300mm at the centre, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

[mirawee]

I haven't commented on anything to do with the Electronic table on any of the forums it has been discussed but I had to reply to the below comment...

I think the whole table thing has been blown completely out of proportion. Perhaps the nationals wasn't the best place for other states to see it first, as everyone is already that little bit more concerned with how their dogs are going to cope with the arena, the surface etc. The way I look at it though, even if CFS had bought this table 2 years ago... the first time many interstaters would get to see it would still be this years nationals. So what is the difference?

The big difference is that if it had been known about 2 years ago some of the other States may have gotten one as well to try out. WA is looking at getting one but unfortunately since it is something that is purchased overseas at this stage it is looking like it won't arrive before the Nationals. Thankfully though it has been announced before the Nationals and people can do something to desensitise their dogs to the noise even if they can't actually get access to the real thing.

Interesting to read that a couple of dogs have had real problems with the table that require a lot of desensitisation, everything I read before this said that no dogs had any problems after they had been on the table once. The biggest issue I can see with the table is that it is usually in novice courses which means that it is used by dogs who aren't necessarily as well trained or exposed to as many things yet :) Actually I can't remember the last time I did a table in anything but a novice course LOL. So hopefully the word gets out to everyone so they have a chance of training for it :)

[wuffles]

To confirm my dog's reaction to the table, she looked beneath her (where the beep comes from), jumped straight off and was very worried. She refused to get back on and wouldn't come near me when I beeped it with my hand. It probably took less than 5 minutes for her to be getting on the table and staying there with constant treats, but she was still not comfortable (ears back, slinky). I left it there for the day so as not to overwhelm her (I did turn the table off and ensured that she was happy to get back on it like that which took another few minutes. In our Novice Agility run she did the table sans beep with no big issues but there was subtle body language indicating she was still a bit worried).

She's not a spooky dog and to be honest I first put her onto the table when I didn't even have treats on me because I was so confident she would be fine I went and got them straight away, though. I wouldn't say she is bombproof by any means but has had no previous issues with loud noises, beeps, storms, etc. She's never been scared of equipment, ever, and is usually very gung ho about it all even if she crashes into something.

She was in the area when FHRP's dogs were on the table and didn't seem particularly worried as long as she or I weren't the ones setting it off. She does have a strong sense of what I call "What Should Be" so the fact that the noise was coming from under the table when it previously had not, may have been what rattled her :) We've only trialled a few times so she is still very green.

[Erny]

Something else agility-goers would want to train for is for their dog to not listen to the fast beeps as a signal to leave the table. I can well imagine this is something many will catch on to, just as many dogs catch on to moving forward at the sound of the bips at pedestrian lights.

[Kavik]

That is a good point Erny!

[sheena]

To be fair, they should allow us to condition our dogs to a new table before competition, but that is not likely to happen

I tried my best to ignore this but I have to comment: I am getting a little sick of people believing that we are spending a lot of our own money to improve our sport in an attempt to be unfair to other competitors.

Thanks CFS...it's good to know we may get a chance to try our dogs on it before competition & those who have dogs who don't like it, may have the option of not using it. I imagine the most likely dogs to be using it will be in Novice.

[J...]

To be fair, they should allow us to condition our dogs to a new table before competition, but that is not likely to happen

I tried my best to ignore this but I have to comment: I am getting a little sick of people believing that we are spending a lot of our own money to improve our sport in an attempt to be unfair to other competitors.

I have not seen anyone here insinuate that the 2012 Nationals Committee are attempting to disadvantage us "out of staters".

I know there has been a lot of concern raised, both over the indoor arena surface and now the table. You can't blame people for being apprehensive and raising their concerns over anything that is different. Some could've done it a little more constructively but the news of the e-table and the indoor training sessions has been a bit of a surprise. Nationals are a big cost for anyone competing, especially the far comers. Many are bringing some pretty competitive dogs along, and want to ensure those dogs aren't disadvantaged. Others are concerned about how their dogs will react and whether there is a chance of lasting training issues as a result.

Now it's largely settled down many are being proactive and asking questions in order to do the best job they can to ensure their dogs are as prepared as they possibly can be.

Sorry I sound so blunt but was trying not to write a novel

Edited April 11, 2012 by Jess.

[sheena]

I am just wondering how dogs might react to the table...those dogs who have been conditioned to things like electronic containment systems for examples & electric/ultrasonic collars that give out a beep warning before they are zapped. Just wondering...none of my dogs have experience with those devices but there are dogs who have. To be fair, if things like electronic tables are the way of the future in dog trials, then every club is going to have to get one, so its dogs can be trained to use it....just like the wee-saw.