Smacking Aggressive Dog, What Does The Dog Think?

[sallyandtex]

I have seen this many times, and agian this morning at the beach.

Dog on a lead in an off-lead beach and barks/growls tries to rush other dogs walking past. Owner smacks it hard (on the side this ocassion, a Cocker Spanial)and makes it sit.

It really makes me feel uncomfortable and sad.

It seems wrong.

So I am asking any doggy psychologists out there...What would the correct thing the owner should do? Usually i say nothing, but if I could help out in a positive way by friendly comment????

It seems the owners are embarrased or something by the dogs behaviour so they lash out at the dog??

I see similar things if a dog tries to "say hello" when the owner doesn't want it to.

thanks.

[Guest Willow]

It's likely to get an owner bitten through redirected aggression.

[Weasels]

I think hitting an aggressive/fearful/excited dog is pointless at best and, as Willow said, dangerous at worst. The interpretation is likely to vary from dog to dog, but if someone hit you when you were angry, scared or upset would it ever make you feel better or calmer? I can't see how it would possibly help - the dog might retreat into its shell but will probably not have a good feeling about the situation next time and might lash out even more.

Personally, if my dogs are trying to greet a dog I don't want them to, I use a basic "walk-on" command. With a dog that is really in high excitement I'd just get it out of there.

edit - I understand wanting to be "seen" to be doing something about it though. I have had people ask me why I wasn't yelling at my dog after he'd done something inappropriate. I have to explain to them that punishing the dog once he's recalled/calmed down/focussed on me is actually punishing the correct behaviour, not whatever happened 2 minutes ago. But people see that as the dog "getting away with it" and expect to see some yelling and hitting I just see it as a failure of management on my part, I learn and do better to prevent any issues next time.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Weasels

[Jumabaar]

My advice to the owner would be to invest in a lead and stick with it! Clearly a dog that needs more guidance about appropriate behaviour around other dogs and ultimately it isn't possible to give it guidance when its off lead and out of control.

[sallyandtex]

My advice to the owner would be to invest in a lead and stick with it! Clearly a dog that needs more guidance about appropriate behaviour around other dogs and ultimately it isn't possible to give it guidance when its off lead and out of control.

Oh sorry, the dog WAS on the lead. I winced at the reaction of the owner.

Poor pooch. I would have thought this owners' reaction was the WRONG thing to do, just wondering where they get their ideas from that this is what to do.

Yes, I agree and always thought that hitting an already angry or upset dog would make matters worse for the animal.

[Jigsaw]

There's probably not a lot you could say to someone in a casual manner. Most people are embarrassed by the dog's behaviour hence the hitting so as to be seen to be in control, and as Weasels said "doing something". If you say something you're likely to be abused as well. Hitting the dog is possibly likely to increase it's frustration and aggression when near other dogs. It's possible the dog may redirect the aggression to the owner as well one day.

[Greytmate]

I have seen this many times, and agian this morning at the beach.

Dog on a lead in an off-lead beach and barks/growls tries to rush other dogs walking past. Owner smacks it hard (on the side this ocassion, a Cocker Spanial)and makes it sit.

It really makes me feel uncomfortable and sad.

It seems wrong.

So I am asking any doggy psychologists out there...What would the correct thing the owner should do? Usually i say nothing, but if I could help out in a positive way by friendly comment????

It seems the owners are embarrased or something by the dogs behaviour so they lash out at the dog??

I see similar things if a dog tries to "say hello" when the owner doesn't want it to.

thanks.

Don't take a dog like this to an off-lead area. The dog clearly doesn't enjoy it.

[Staffyluv]

I think hitting an aggressive/fearful/excited dog is pointless at best and, as Willow said, dangerous at worst. The interpretation is likely to vary from dog to dog, but if someone hit you when you were angry, scared or upset would it ever make you feel better or calmer? I can't see how it would possibly help - the dog might retreat into its shell but will probably not have a good feeling about the situation next time and might lash out even more.

Personally, if my dogs are trying to greet a dog I don't want them to, I use a basic "walk-on" command. With a dog that is really in high excitement I'd just get it out of there.

edit - I understand wanting to be "seen" to be doing something about it though. I have had people ask me why I wasn't yelling at my dog after he'd done something inappropriate. I have to explain to them that punishing the dog once he's recalled/calmed down/focussed on me is actually punishing the correct behaviour, not whatever happened 2 minutes ago. But people see that as the dog "getting away with it" and expect to see some yelling and hitting I just see it as a failure of management on my part, I learn and do better to prevent any issues next time.

I agree with all,of this..

No point addressing and trying to correct something that happened before...

I use the leave it command and then let's go.. So far so good but we have been pretty lucky in our meetings with other dogs...

[huski]

Dogs can interpret a hit like that in different ways, but the reality is that if the dog is in a high level of arousal hitting it will probably have little to no effect.

IMO there is never an occasion where hitting a dog is appropriate, unless you are defending yourself. I have gotten into arguments with people when I've asked them not to smack/hit their dogs, sometimes they are desperate owners who don't know what to with their dog in those situations and are open to suggestions and sometimes they are arrogant know it alls who will never be convinced that handling a dog like that is at best ineffective.

Edited April 9, 2012 by huski

[megan_]

Dog shouldn't be at off leash park, even on lead (very bad idea, even with a friendly dog)and the owner shouldlearn techniques to keep the dog below the threshold ( eg LAT). It is very hard for an overstimulatex dog to learn.

[RiverStar-Aura]

Zeus lunges at dogs when he's on a lead going for walks because he wants to play with them and gets so excited then frustrated that he can't. I ALWAYS have treats on me, make him sit well out of the way of the other approaching dog and shovel food into his mouth. He's so distracted by the "ZOMG FOOD!!!" that he forgets about the other dog completely.

He's getting much better though and is starting to look to me for food when he sees other dogs!!

I find there's no point to yelling or smacking; it gets people nowhere.

[tdierikx]

The owner needs to be in a position where he/she is the more interesting object... pocket full of treats or a favourite toy pulled out at the moment the dog spots something more interesting (ie. other dogs), and massive reward for doing what YOU want, rather than what IT wants. If this is impossible - don't take the dog to places where it is going to be overstimulated in that way - stay home and work on being the best thing on the planet for your dog, so it's attention is on you, not anything else.

T.

[Red Fox]

I have seen this many times, and agian this morning at the beach.

Dog on a lead in an off-lead beach and barks/growls tries to rush other dogs walking past. Owner smacks it hard (on the side this ocassion, a Cocker Spanial)and makes it sit.

It really makes me feel uncomfortable and sad.

It seems wrong.

So I am asking any doggy psychologists out there...What would the correct thing the owner should do? Usually i say nothing, but if I could help out in a positive way by friendly comment????

It seems the owners are embarrased or something by the dogs behaviour so they lash out at the dog??

I see similar things if a dog tries to "say hello" when the owner doesn't want it to.

thanks.

There's nothing wrong with physically correcting a dog for inappropriate behaviour, HOWEVER I wouldn't be doing it with a hit/smack (or stopping to make the dog sit). A quick pop or two on the leash and continue walking would be a better option IMO.

Owning a reactive dog can be incredibly frustrating. Better not to judge unless you know exactly what you're dealing with...

[Poppy's mum]

I get frightened, I bark, I lunge, I get hit...what does that do to the relationship with my owner? Teaches me not to trust them in frightening situations. Makes my problem harder to fix.

[m-sass]

if the dog gets hit while it's lashing out at another dog it will associate other dogs with being hit and it will only increase the dog's aggression toward other dogs in future.

That's true in very rare circumstances with extemely hard dogs, but it's not the norm with the average pet, most dogs will shut down with aversion and stop the aggressive behaviour fairly quickly, but smacking the dog is not the most effective way for implememting punishment based behaviour modification.

[BDJ]

on a slightly different note, how would you handle the below if you were the owner (please note I am not the owner - just an aquaintance)

Puppy bought from pet shop (please remember - I am not the owner and my only input was DONT DO IT :) ) - it is supposedly a poodle/lab cross. And it is aggressive - from when she bought it home at around 10 weeks. When it has food or a toy (and even when it is standing near where the food comes from - ie: the kitchen) it will snap and growl. In her words "it has bitten me twice".

Her trainer is going down the path of distract it with other toy and praise it when it walks away

My thought would be - give him something he does not want to share, place hand next to muzzle, every time he growls/snaps he gets contact with his muzzle (initially a light shove/tap which increases to a rap and then a smack if it does not stop), the hand must not retreat and simply sits next to the muzzle (contact every time there is unwanted behaviour (lip curl, growl, mumble, snap etc) until the body language relaxes then the human fully retreats. Repeat as necessary. For this to work it has to be a) instant b) hand must not react if it gets a nip and c) the smack should never be over harsh or a belt, it is simply a response (on the muzzle) to an action frm the pup

What other trains of thought do people have - this is an owner who genuinely wants to do the right thing (she has told me that she wants to fix it before it becomes a problem) but uses trainers who (from conversations with her about her other dog who did not have this problem) always take the 'softest' method (ie : it is usual to take 2 months to teach a 6mo puppy to sit etc).

thoughts?

[dee lee]

I have seen this many times, and agian this morning at the beach.

Dog on a lead in an off-lead beach and barks/growls tries to rush other dogs walking past. Owner smacks it hard (on the side this ocassion, a Cocker Spanial)and makes it sit.

It really makes me feel uncomfortable and sad.

It seems wrong.

So I am asking any doggy psychologists out there...What would the correct thing the owner should do? Usually i say nothing, but if I could help out in a positive way by friendly comment????

It seems the owners are embarrased or something by the dogs behaviour so they lash out at the dog??

I see similar things if a dog tries to "say hello" when the owner doesn't want it to.

thanks.

There's nothing wrong with physically correcting a dog for inappropriate behaviour, HOWEVER I wouldn't be doing it with a hit/smack (or stopping to make the dog sit). A quick pop or two on the leash and continue walking would be a better option IMO.

Owning a reactive dog can be incredibly frustrating. Better not to judge unless you know exactly what you're dealing with...

My thoughts exactly.

[Greytmate]

on a slightly different note, how would you handle the below if you were the owner (please note I am not the owner - just an aquaintance)

Puppy bought from pet shop (please remember - I am not the owner and my only input was DONT DO IT :) ) - it is supposedly a poodle/lab cross. And it is aggressive - from when she bought it home at around 10 weeks. When it has food or a toy (and even when it is standing near where the food comes from - ie: the kitchen) it will snap and growl. In her words "it has bitten me twice".

Her trainer is going down the path of distract it with other toy and praise it when it walks away

My thought would be - give him something he does not want to share, place hand next to muzzle, every time he growls/snaps he gets contact with his muzzle (initially a light shove/tap which increases to a rap and then a smack if it does not stop), the hand must not retreat and simply sits next to the muzzle (contact every time there is unwanted behaviour (lip curl, growl, mumble, snap etc) until the body language relaxes then the human fully retreats. Repeat as necessary. For this to work it has to be a) instant b) hand must not react if it gets a nip and c) the smack should never be over harsh or a belt, it is simply a response (on the muzzle) to an action frm the pup

What other trains of thought do people have - this is an owner who genuinely wants to do the right thing (she has told me that she wants to fix it before it becomes a problem) but uses trainers who (from conversations with her about her other dog who did not have this problem) always take the 'softest' method (ie : it is usual to take 2 months to teach a 6mo puppy to sit etc).

thoughts?

It already is a problem, and there may be nothing she can do to fix it. The parents of this pup may be very aggressive too. Ten week old pups do not usually act that aggressively. It's alarming.

She needs to pay to see a qualified behaviourist, not just a dog trainer. In the mean time, if she adopts training methods like NILIF, the dog might start respecting her. If she keeps using distracting methods she risks getting bitten more. If the dog is inherently aggressive, it might be better to have the dog put to sleep, as she will be totally responsible (and now maybe subject to criminal charges) if the dog bites anyone.

You buy from a pet shop you risk buying a pup from really nasty parents, and you also risk buying a pup that has lived in a small cage and learned to fight for its food.

Dog's don't normally unlearn aggression, but people learn to keep it in a way so it doesn't get the opportunity to show aggression. That is the best she can hope for. If she won't dramatically change the way she treats the dog, it will continue to bite her.

Your suggestion to hit the dog gently on the muzzle could result in the dog becoming much more aggressive and the owner being bitten more. Also, a dog's muzzle is very sensitive, so it would be painful for the dog. Really not a good thing to do at all, but especially with an aggressive dog.

This dog urgently needs help from somebody very experienced in dog aggression. Or it should be put to sleep before it is old enough to seriously injure somebody.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Greytmate

[melstar-36]

I totally agree, we were in a similar situation on the weekend at a Easter festival, the advertisement said no dogs allowed must of been for a good reason so the poochies stayed home. Well, when we got there, there was a petting zoo, motorbike demonstrations and plenty happening. There were dogs everywhere!!! One owner was walking his staffy past the petting zoo and he's dog lunged at the animals to my complete horror and disgust, he corrected the dog properly, making him sit and taking his attention away... Then he doubled the metal lead and whipped his dog in the middle of his back, the noise from the whip and the dogs crys where dreadful, the owner continued past the petting zoo with a satisfied face. I wanted to take that metal chain and whip his back and take the dog away from him, complete idiot

[huski]

if the dog gets hit while it's lashing out at another dog it will associate other dogs with being hit and it will only increase the dog's aggression toward other dogs in future.

That's true in very rare circumstances with extemely hard dogs, but it's not the norm with the average pet, most dogs will shut down with aversion and stop the aggressive behaviour fairly quickly, but smacking the dog is not the most effective way for implememting punishment based behaviour modification.

I would think "extremely hard dogs" would be the least likely to respond to being hit when in a high level of arousal.

Even "the average pet" would have a raised pain threshold when experiencing a high level of arousal which makes correcting them at that point useless.