Vets And Euthanasia

[Dame Aussie]

Stormie, because your post is so interesting, I am answering specfic points. Not to criticise but to be very clear.

Did they offer to send Percy to one of the larger after hours hospitals for 24 hour monitoring?

Yes, and I feel absolutely sick we didn't take that option up. To be honest I got the feeling everything was about prolonging charges. I know that sounds callous where a life is concerned, but I distrusted them very much.

Were any other treatment options, such as taking bloods, discussed or offered to you?

Nope, no other care.

Hospital patients adapt to their environment very quickly, so whilst as an owner you might be worried, in most cases, our patients are very content and comfortable.

No you are wrong in our case. Percy defecated in the reception area when we returned. I didn't listen to him and he knew better than me.

Personally I think it's important that our animals can cope with being away from home, in case situations like this arise.

Not an option with Maltese and small breeds. So many small dogs are yappy if they are distressed and the stupid owners don't see it. Percy was ordinarily calm because we treated him right.

I can tell you that your Percy would have felt no pain and putting the injection through the already placed drip line would have ensured this.

No you are wrong. I'm sorry but that comment confirms my distrust of vets. We later found out that the lethabarb injection can sting, but his reaction was not even that - I *know* what he experienced. In fact we had to hold him very firmly to stop him struggling. I am surpised is that he had that strength in him, also not a great thing to live with now.

Regards,

P

I am having trouble understanding why you refused the option to have your dog treated at a vet hospital if he was so sick, and requested euthanasia instead of a second opinion. Vet hospitals are like people hospitals. They have their own pathology labs and so can do the testing that a normal vet cannot do on public holidays. How would taking your dog to a better equipped vet be about prolonging charges? You would be paying the charges to a different vet. I can understand that sometimes the best care might be unaffordable, and sometimes taking out insurance is a good option.

Small dogs are really no different from big dogs in their behaviour. Some small dogs are prone to separation anxiety, and some large ones are as well. If you had this problem with your last dog, and suspect that your current dog has this problem too, you might want to get some advice from a trainer or behaviourist. Dogs are much happier if they can learn to cope with separation from their owners at times.

Dogzonline is a great place to learn all about dog problems and behaviour because there are so many knowledgeable people here. We can all learn to be better dog owners by listening to advice from qualified and very experienced people. There wouldn't be a single person here who would be unsympathetic to what happened to Percy. But very few people here would agree with what you have said in this thread or give support for your unusual ideas about dog welfare.

Greytmate,

I'm not entirely comfortable with being threatened with legal obligations. That Vet apparently has no legal obligations...

If you own a dog, you have legal obligations to provide for its welfare, as well as legal obligations to ensure it causes no harm to others. That is how it works in Australia. If you are uncomfortable with that, you are not ready to own a dog

Dog owners have to be responsible. Vets have legal obligations and responsibilities as well.

It is always horrible to lose a dog so I can see why you are so upset

I have to also ask though, why didn't you take up the option to have the dog taken to hospital when you were given that option?

Edited April 6, 2012 by Aussie3

[pepe001]

I feel your pain but my experience has been different the last few days. A couple of months ago I had to put my beloved shepherd down. I took him to the vet on the back of the ute and he never left that alive. He died in my arms on the ute without struggling. I asked him for a drop, he lay down on an old horse rug, and she shaved his leg, put in a sedative, he went to sleep, then she injected the green, he was dead before it was all in. But he was old and it was time. Then last week the same thing happend to my other dog - cancer. Again he was old so not as hard to cope with. He went the same way. Then this week I lost 2 baby goats (who are also pets and not livestock) to 'maybe' tetnus. The first little girl was too far gone so PTS as soon as the vet saw her. The next (the following day) wasn't as bad so we tried to save him. After spending 3 hours on Sunday night reading through every text we could find about poision etc - no idea of the cause. So we treated him for everything we could and he came home. Neither the vet or I was interested in letting a week old baby die alone at a sterile surgery. Two nigths I nursed him and did all his injections in the comfort of my lounge but he didn't make it. On Tuesday morning I decided to end it for him. The vet didn't charge for the PTSs (even though one was a late night call out on Saturday) and only charged cost for all drugs. Although she was out of her depth with goats she tried hard and felt the pain we all went through. Just now (about 5 minutes ago) I found out a friend (human) was killed yesterday - maybe this post is about me and not you but I just wanted to say 'don't assume all vets are bad because you found one you didn't like, find a good one and stick with them'. Same as doctors - I hate most of them but I have found a lovely man in the next town and we always take my family to see him. He cares.

[persephone]

Our new adopted child will never go to a vet. Far better to pass away in my arms than days of distress with strangers.

having just re read this thread.. your comment jumped out at me. If you intend on carrying through with this , you are setting yourself ,and your dog up for much pain and distress.

A dog dying after trauma, or with parvo ,or similar, or after a stroke, say , even if it is being held by a loving owner, does not die quickly or painlessly...and it is definitely not pleasant to watch/hear.

There is no way I will knowingly let any of my animals/birds die in this manner .

Edited April 6, 2012 by persephone

[persephone]

pepe001

[smooch]

It is most upsetting to have a dog struggle , I have seen it enough times .. and have also seen dogs calm right down and become much easier to position once owners go out of the consulting room....[/font][/color]

This is so true with Smooch, my vet takes him in and I have to stay out other wise the vet can't do a thing with him. If I am not there no problems.

[RL1]

Sometimes - just like with human doctors - the cause of the illness is not immediately obvious, and will need time to diagnose fully.

and sometimes vets are totally incompetent and misdiagnose an illness that other vets diagnose immediately, but by then it's too late for the dog ( and owner )

[Guest donatella]

Exactly Pav!!!

You didn't take the vets advice to send your DOG ( not child), to a specailist, you chose to pts without knowing what was wrong, could easily have been fine.

I think something is awry as well, there's no way in hell I'd opt for euthanasia on my nearly 1 year old dog without trying every option first.

The only reason given was because the dog was no longer eating or drinking and didn't recognise the owners anymore (subjective). Who eats and drinks when unwell? I barely eat with the flu, doesn't mean on deaths door.

[persephone]

the dog was no longer eating or drinking

and a dog on a drip possibly wasn't thirsty anyway ....

[Guest donatella]

the dog was no longer eating or drinking

and a dog on a drip possibly wasn't thirsty anyway ....

Very good point.

[Xyz]

It is nearly a year to the day we asked our vet to euthanize our beloved Percy who was only over a year old and we don’t know what was wrong. The handling of our child’s illness and the final injection has left us scarred and concerned for our new child, also a 1 year old Maltese.

Firstly dogs aren't children. Yes, people get attached to their dogs and have very strong feelings but at the end of the day, dogs are dogs. Why on earth would you euth a dog without knowing what was wrong with it ?

Percy was suddenly ill at the start of Good Friday 2011, and we took him to the nearest available vet a few suburbs away considering the long weekend is the time that everything is closed. Over 3 days the vet basically did nothing but put him on a drip. I now think the vet simply was covering for the long weekend and didn’t care much at all. What I would like to discuss is how uncaring vets are.

That would be normal for a vet to put a dog on a drip, it's the first thing that's done with an ill animal, as dehydration will certainly kill a dog. It would be unusual for a vet not to ask to take blood samples and send them off. They would certainly have done whatever inhouse testing was av available to them at the time, providing you consented to testing/treatment.

Firstly, we should never have left Percy overnight. The back of a clinic has no comfort, nothing is familiar in fact it’s downright creepy and a highly bonded pet like a Maltese is going to be in such distress that overnight stays cannot possibly be good.

Yes, you should have left Percy over night, as you have no way of monitoring him, assessing if his condition has deteriorated, changing fluid bags, have medication on hand or the skills to administer it.

Highly bonded or not, there are times when it's necessary to be seperated and dogs cope a lot better than owners think. Mostly it's the owner who are "highly bonded" and have trouble letting go.

Secondly, we asked for euthanasia because Percy was not even drinking, did not really recognise us and we did not know what to do. But we attended the injection and were horrified – we held him while the vet flushed the drip and then our child screamed in terror with the green injection. I can never remove from my mind the honest truth that our Percy’s last moment was terror. The vet didn’t even seem to notice. In my view, Percy knew what the injection was for and I feel I did not give him the most compassionate treatment even though I had intended a calm gentle passing away.

You asked the vet to euth and euth the vet did. The dog is at peace and any stress would have been mimimal and not prolonged.

I can’t overstate that I am sickened about the veterinary profession. Our new adopted child will never go to a vet. Far better to pass away in my arms than days of distress with strangers.

Your choice but there will be times or accident and illness and even routine health care that will require a vet. Witholding treatment is an offence and you can be prosecuted for it

I suggest that you treat your dog more like a dog and think of it less like a child in the interests of your own sanity and the health of your dog.

And next time, at least try and establish what's wrong with the dog, before you get trigger happy with the green dream.

Fantastic post. +1!

[SwaY]

#1 The vet said take to another clinic, you said no - That is not the vets fault, that is yours.

#2 You asked the vet to PTS the dog - That is not the vets fault, you asked for it to happen, refer back to #1

[Aussienot]

This is an emotive, and not a logical post. Any discussion of shudda will fall on deaf ears. It's very hard to lose a beloved dog, and I hope the poster realises her emotional reaction is too strong for her to overcome without help. Blaming the vet is a coping strategy that carries a lot of risk for her current dog. A very sad story.

[Crisovar]

Owners who treat their animals like children and elevate them to that status do themselves and their animals no favours.

Losing a pet is distressing, and it is only right that we grieve when they pass, but they are not children. They are animals.

I would not judge anyone who shows no emotion at the time of euthanasing someones pet, Veterinary staff are required to be professional and ensure that they do their job it is a hard job. A blubbering emotional wreck of a Vet is not what you want when your animals needs to be treated or Euthanased.

It has already been stated that it is an offence to fail to provide Veterinary treatment for an animal that needs it. It is very sad that this law does at times have to be enforced.

Releasing our animals from pain and illness when that is the only option besides allowing them to suffer is a great gift, it is painful to give but it is the last gift we give them.

[Whippetsmum]

I'm really sad for the loss of a young dog, and understand how hard it is when you don't know why the dog was ill.

I'm going to be cruel to be kind OP, what you are planning is wrong and irresponsible- possibly because you are still grieving, possibly you feel guilty, and regret the choices you made. We can't go back and undo things we have done, we all have something we would change if we could. You can change the future and build a relationship with a vet so that you can trust them in an emergency, and your beautiful Percy won't have to suffer.

If I never took my animals to the vet, Phoeebe would have died at 12 weeks- she died at 18 years; Celeste would have died at 6 years- she made it to 21; Sasha would have died at 4- she made it to 14; My precious 2 year old would have died at 10 weeks. I would have died from the guilt and shame of ignoring my pets needs- I could not live with knowing I hadn't cared enough to look after them.

If you spend time developing a relationship with a vet while your Percy is in good health, you and the vet will know each other better and be able to communicate better in a serious situation. I've now known my vet for over 20 years, he explains everything, we have had open discussions at every point that a serious illness has cropped up, I can ask him if it's time for my elderly animals to leave, and I trust his responses. Because of the relationship we have built up, I trust his judgement, if he was a stranger, I wouldn't. Our now 2 year old girl was gravely ill a few weeks after we got her, I thought she would never recover, and I asked him if PTS was the kindest thing, he said no, he was confident that he could manage her, and would tell me if this opinion changed. After a few days of TLC at our vet, she was fine, If I hadn't been through serious illnesses with my other animals with the same vet, maybe I wouldn't have trusted his decision that my now 2 year old would pull through.

We are still not absolutely sure what caused the 2 year old's illness when she was a pup, but by careful management of symptoms, she pulled through. If I hadn't taken my old cat to the same vet a few weeks later, with similar symptoms, she wouldn't have made it through, we now suspect both had giardia, as we have recycled water and had a fish pond that both drank out of. My elderly cat has now passed away, but through age, not a treatable infection, we wouldn't have had the last 2 years with her without my vet. If we stopped taking our animals to the vet, we may not have prevented our other dog ( a strong adult) from eventually becoming ill with the same bug, we cleaned out the pond, filled it with fresh watre and covered it to prevent the animals drinking from it.

I have now said goodbye to 3 elderly animals, all my "babies" in the care of my regular vet, I have never seen any of them suffer, it's always something I struggle with, but I know that my vet would let me know if I was being selfish and ending things too soon, or if I was selfish in making them stay longer. My vet never rushes me out, he let me stay nursing my poor cat long after she was gone.... he had known her as long as I had, since 8 weeks old.

[redangel]

Great post Whippetsmum.

I am blessed with a vet as good as yours. When I first started seeing him with my pets I had an older dog facing a poor prognosis. I discussed with him at length the options. He took all the time to listen and talk. Having worked in the veterinary field he encouraged me to seek a second opinion with my former employer. That nailed it for me...this guy was going to be my vet!

Fast forward about 8yrs and I had my 9yr old dog critically sick after some life saving surgery. I was updated twice a day on her progress and given pretty much unrestricted access to her in clinic to nurse her & administer medications & such. ..Mon through to Sunday. All the staff were very supportive and helpful.

Yes there are great clinics out there with awesome staff. I hope the OP finds the vet that suits his/her needs...more so for the new dogs sake than her own.

I note that the OP didnt answer the question as to whether she purchased the new maltese from the same breeder as her first. Dare I suggest as she is still not over losing her first dog that it fits that the puppy was emotively purchased from a petshop window or byb. I would think given the history a breeder would be dubious as to whether the prospective owner was ready to handle a new addition. I hope that the OP hears something in these pages and reconsiders the stance on vets. Wise words have been shared here on the bad effects of treating dogs like pseudo childs, may she see why change is needed.

[Sheridan]

I'm not sure what the OP is looking for here.

But here's what may happen if she (he?) never takes her dog to the vet:

• parvo
  
• distemper
  
• infected cuts
  
• heartworm.
  

At least.

Sway certainly had it right, that the OP chose this path. Yes, the dog may have died anyway but the OP will never know if the dog might well have lived.

To the OP: find a vet for your dog.

[Andisa]

Anyone who works with dogs on a regular basis can tell straight away how the dogs have been treated in their families. This thread to me is more a reminder to dog owners that dogs are DOGS - not human replacements.

I have been grooming dogs for over 10 years, more than 90% of the dogs I have dealt with - all sizes and god knows what breeds, but the best behaved well adjusted dogs are dog...not babies!

Over the years I have thinned the problem dogs/owners out and only do 2 dogs that need reminding they are dogs now, only because the owners can't find anyone else to put up with the behavior of the dogs while being groomed.

One dog - once I start him I will not stop, if the phone rings or someone needs me, I don't care. I have learned long ago if I had to put that dog on the floor I won't pick him up easily. This dog will not be crated either - I have made that mistake twice and will never do it again. I am not talking about a small crate but a show trolley large enough to fit a Rottweiler. That dog turned in to the most evil sod you can imagine - the fear and aggression of being in a cage was more than he could cope with. Within minutes he had crapped and pissed everywhere. I have never seen anything like it - ever! I opened the door, waited for him to come out and settle down, put a jumper on - pulled down the sleeves and took a deep breath - then washed the bugger again so he was clean when his owner came to collect him. I let him run around my grooming shed and not back in the trolley. To allow a dog to get in to that state is disgusting. The other one I do is the most frightening 3.5kg Maltese you would ever come across - 8 years later she is getting worse, not better.

The majority of the dogs I groom are a mixture of Maltese / Shih Tzu and god knows what but the majority of them have no problems being left without their owners for grooming for an hour or so - because they know they are dogs..

I will add - I have lost confidence with some vets, but will never blame them all for a problem I had with a few. I now have the most wonderful vet and he loves my dogs - what more could I ask.

Not having a go at the OP but anyone working with dogs will know what I am saying.

[Baileys mum]

This is such a sad thread, & I really do sympathise with the OP.

But please don't take it out on all vets because of one bad experience.

There are good & bad vets,just like there are good & bad GP's.

I'm sure you wouldn't deny yourself medical treatment if you needed it, please don't deny you dog treatment if he needs it.

It seems like you are still deeply grieving, I agree with some of the other posters that it might be helpful for you to see a grief counseller.

Please take care. :)

[espinay2]

To the OP, I am very sorry you have had a bad experience. It is never easy when a pet is sick and yes, the emotions can be very much like if it were a member of our human family.

As mentioned though, dogs do need to be treated like dogs and you actually do a dog not favours by not doing this.

As Andisa mentioned, most of the dogs that experience the most stress are those that are 'babied' and not taught to cope.

Teaching a dog to be confined in a small area such as a crate (so it learns to see it as a safe and comfortable 'den' or 'bedroom') can significantly reduce stress when a dog is required to travel or go to the vet.

Taking the dog to puppy classes at a vet clinic can also greatly reduce a dogs concern about a vet clinic and they see it as a good and friendly place to be.

Teaching a dog to be handled all over, to meet strangers and to be separated from you are all good things that will help the dog to cope in its everyday life.

Care needs to be taken not to create a co-dependent situation. It does not help your dog and it does not help you. Grief is hard and does hurt. I know how hard it is and yes I have had to make the hard decision to say goodbye to dogs I have owned and loved and have held them as they died. It is never easy. If the grief and anger you are feeling is still significant at this point in time though it may help you to seek out professional assistance as it is not normal at this stage of the grieving process.

As mentioned, vet clinics are like doctors surgeries and hospitals. No one likes being in hospital and they are in no way like home. They should not be expected to be like home. They are however, necessary things.

Condemning the whole vet profession because of your experience (which you contributed to through your own decisions) is like condemning all human doctors because of one 'bad' one, all haridressers because of a bad haircut, or all chefs because of a bad meal etc etc. It is a significant overgeneralisation. Instead why not take a lesson from this experience on how you can make things betterfor your new dog. Instead of reatreating, why not take a proactive approach.

As mentioned be proactive in finding a vet you are comfortable with. Perhaps as suggested ask for recommendations. Book your new pup into a puppy class. Get to know the staff and the clinic. Let your pup get to know them and become happy and comfortable going there.

If you are concerned about vaccinations, do your research into them and talk to people who have gone the no vaccine route (you will find LOTs of information and discussion on natural rearing on the net that you can participate in) so your decision to give them to your dog or not is made from a positition of factual strength and is not an emotional kneejerk reaction. You will be able to evaluate the pros and cons and decide which risks are - for you - the ones you will accept and the ones you wont. I wont tell you which route is the right or wrong one, but at the moment your decision is being made based on emotion and that is not good.

Be proactive in training your dog so that it can cope. As mentioned, babying it does it no favours and only sets it up for a lifetime of stress. Making sure that your dog has the ability to cope if it DOES need to be away from you, to be hospitalised or to be handled by other people is a good thing and IMO an owner that does not do this is doing a dog no favours at all.

Be VERY careful you are not creating a co-dependent situation. That is not good for anyone - you orthe dog. Realise that loving your dog and having them as a 'good family member' does NOT mean treating them like a baby or a child. In reality doing this is selling the dog out and not giving it the respect it deserves as the marvellous creature it is - with its own motivations and behaviours as a dog and not as a human. A dog does not think like a human. Learning about dog behaviour will help you to learn more about your dog and to get closer to it.

Remember the good times with your dog but also respect your dog by learning and moving on in a positive way from your experience with him. Use it to make your new pups life a happy one and remember that wrapping it in cotton woll and hiding it away will not do that.

[persephone]

espinay ...

percynality...this is so sad , I do hope you are reading the suggestions and that you find someone who can help you to help be stronger than your pain , and I hope that you soon feel confident to do your research and find a vet who thinks in a similar way to you :)