Dog Scared To Make A Mistake

[woodbyne]

First of all a bit of background. I got my dog end of last year from a breeder she is an ex show dog and has her CH title but was a kennel dog locked in kennels and then taken to shows. Shes been a nightmare to toilet train still don’t trust her but that’s ok I live with that. I am training her in agility and obedience. As she has never learnt to learn its been a big struggle teaching her sit and drop as all she was allowed to do was sit and pull to walk out on her lead in the show ring. We are getting there slowly. She loving agility she had her first trial a couple of weeks ago went ok but shut down on me when I called her name and come a bit anxiously I wasn’t angry at all but I said it in a panicky voice in the stress of the ring situation. This morning before work I set up a similar scenario where I had to work hard to call her off the table and go to a jump she LOVES contact obstacles as she loves being up high. So I call her turn my body (possibly a bit too late) and she hops on the table that’s ok that happened in the trial (more than likely my error) I then call her and she drops her tail and runs to the gate as though I have beaten her a hundred times poor baby. I am working with the clicker and working on heaps of rewards for come and ignoring her mistakes I am not competitive at all and just want to trial for fun. I also theink the breeder has probably called her and really got up her for whatever it was shes done wrong so now shes a bit phobic about doing the wrong thing. The breeder is very loud and has a hot temper I have seen her yell at the dogs and them all cringing. So is there any tricks or games that I can do to help her learn that its ok if you stuff up we just try again.

[Tilly]

Can you change the recall from name/come to something else that doesn't have the same associations? Do you have an affectionate name for her?

I am lucky my boys think "grumpy bum" and "fluffy butt" are words of love ....

I don't tend to call the dogs name first (only because I often get them mixed up ) ... I whistle or call "oye" and then the recall.

[woodbyne]

when i was driving into work i was thinking of using a different work and her fluffy name got to think of a totally unrelated word that dummy me will remember... Thanks for you help and at least i know im on the right path of thinking.

[Jigsaw]

I remember reading of someone who was having difficulties with their dog (I can't remember the reason) and it's association with their name so they called the dog "puppy" or something like that for several months and then went back to the name. it was a long enough time for the establishment of new associations with recall and life in general etc that the dog's reaction to the name when reintroduced was negligible.

Remember though that you do have a dog that has a behavioural history of this sort of reaction and when you're stressed she may automatically turn to this behaviour again, it may have become an ingrained habit with her, so it means a lot of work for yourself to be aware of what you are doing with your own voice and body. Importantly, forgive yourself if you do stuff up, laugh and have fun!!

[wuffles]

One of my dogs is super sensitive as well. In obedience training if someone across the field yells at their dog she stresses!

Firstly I would try videoing yourself on a few courses and what you do when she does something wrong. It may be that your body language/tone of voice is much harsher than you realise. Even a drop of shoulders can affect dogs..

You could try some clicker training to build confidence, especially nose touches and spins which dogs seem to love. Some simple shaping could help as well, for example just putting a box in the middle of the room and letting her interact with it - nothing is wrong, she decides what happens :)

[Erny]

Fantastic that you're doing agility with her - great confidence and self esteem booster and it really seems as though she needs it. The others have given some good suggestions. I don't know who is teaching you at agility nor what they've suggested, but in case you're using "oh oh" (or similar) as a non-reward marker (if you're using a NRM at all), change it to something like "whoops!!" so that it maintains an upward swing in your voice.

It's only been a few months since you acquired her. I think you'll be able to look back before long and recognise how much more confident she's become since you've had her.

For the drops, is she into food? If so, have you tried the Lure + Under Leg combination? She's the sort of dog where training needs to be set up so that she gets to make the decisions, but set up so that she can win easily.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Erny

[woodbyne]

We have got the drops and sits under control now. This is the first time i have trained an adult dog from scratch all my others have been babies and you dont realise how much you kind of accidently teach them. We used lots of luring as shaping kind of worries her a bit but i did shape a nice nose to hand touch. I think shes been booted up the butt a few times as if i run to fast and we kind of get in each others way she will also shut down then, so i am learning to try and improve my style as well harder than teaching the dog i think... We did video the trial at first i thought it was that at obstacle number 10 or 11 in agility and jumping she shut down but it was more that she was in the wrong spot that put me off and then i stopped her flow and that turned her off so its alot to do with my unco handling and i know i did get nervous in the trial so i think i have to enter more and get over my phobia get combination arent we nervous trialler and a mistake phobic dog.... or well maybe we can both crawl into the crate and cry....

I agree she does have a history and i think it will always haunt her so i have to learn to be a better handler to avoid stuffing her up (easier said than done). I think it was definately the trial situation that brought about the rise in this behaviour i know (from the video) i called in a streesed out tone even though i didnt even realise or mean to i definately wasnt angry at her just the excitement of the moment.

I havent actually used a marker as the wrong behaviour i usually just ignore it so maybe i should try the oops one its all a learning curve and so intersting to see her develop emotionally and socially.

it was funny luring her to sit and drop at the start had to work on one at a time as she would just stand taller and try moving her feet silly show dog :)

[Staffyluv]

I would be giving her another 'pet' name that you can use to make the come command a pleasant one.

If I call Ziggy, he sort of looks at me but if I call Zig, Zig in a higher pitched voice he comes running at me..

[voloclydes]

waves madly to woodbyne....

sounds like your new dog is an oafie sophie.... she will come out of the house yard...so close she is touching your butt, but something tiggers her, then so quickly you have no idea she is gone... back inside on the bed.

its just short of 2 years since we picked her up... so now i am looking at obedience trials with her.... she is looking to do stuff... finally but its a long track. i have sort of got her doing some shake hands and a trick i kind of invented that i call shuffle butt, where she sit but hops her butt forward, means she can't take your fingers off when you have a treat. i just sort of shapped it, but sophie given her life means she focus on food.... but can't work out what got the treat.

i think it mostly trial and error... and what works for your dog. me i think its a girl thing... boys just get more out there when stressed and girls just want to go home.

maybe i should wake her up off the couch.... even the whole laying round the house has taken a long long time... we hardly have hole dug these days.

Edited April 3, 2012 by voloclydes

[Vickie]

Where are you located Woodbyne? Maybe we can suggest a good agility trainer nearby. There are so many exercises you can do to build her confidence in agility, but stuff like this is hard to diagnose over the net as I suspect there are a number of things going on here.

I don't think it's a good idea to trial her until you get this sorted out.

[canine fun sports]

I would be working on relationship building - playing games, being silly with her and just having fun. There are lots of relationship building games including tugging (personally my least favourite), retrieving, "slap-a puppy" (which would need to be VERY gentle at first), body rub-downs and the human just generally playing the fool. That does not mean you cannot try some agility obstacles intermingles with it, but I would not be doing any significant wequenceing until I had a dog that really wanted to respond with me. Once she is having fun with you, then you can teach her to repsond to your calls.

It is hard to give specific advice without seeing the pair of you in action.

Cheers,

[Salukifan]

Lets get one thing straight. Your dog doesn't know she's making a mistake.

What she does know is in the agility training context, YOU can get very stressed/harsh with her. That will make her wary generally.

I have trained a very soft dog. Initially she ran from obstacles to her place of safety by my backpack. It took her six months do do a tunnel and over 9 months to do a full height A-Frame.

YOU have to take the pressure off her. First lesson: You can NEVER be more negative than neutral. That means you reward the positives and ignore the rest. Most of time in agility it's not the dog making mistakes anyway - its the handler misdirecting or failing to give the dog clear cues.

Second lesson: change what constitutes "success". A successful training session needs to become less about the obstacles and more about showing her a good time.

Be patient, be positive and resist the urge to compare her progress with any other dogs. Hasten slowly and find a decent trainer who can deal with dogs that aren't high drive, super confident agility prospects.... and that isn't every trainer.

This may seem counter intuitive but when things go wrong, REWARD and play with her. Chances are its not her fault. You don't want her thinking that every time you stop her in a set or on a course, its a bad thing. Frankly I've never been a fan of stopping if there's a mistake made. Finish the set or course, rethink your handling strategy and do it again from scratch. Make the end of each set or course rewarding for the dog.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Vickie]

Excellent post HW! And exactly why I suggested someone recommending a trainer who can help.

Relationship building is great, but unless you can apply the communication and rewards at the right time and place on course, your problem will probably still remain, even if your relationship is improved outside of the course.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Vickie

[zeebie]

Lots of good positive points here :)

You don't say what sort of dog it is you have, is it male/female? age? size etc. All of these things are important and also every single dog like humans have their own personality/temperment etc. Yep yep dogs are pack animals etc.....

firstly because this dog has been kenneled and a "show dog" it is like reprogramming or 'patterning' someone who has had a brain injury and needs to start from the beginning again.

So I personally would not be doing anything in the obedience or agility ring until I had this dog loving me and rspecting me as the Alpha dog. Just lots of FUN ball play, tugging as suggested, walks and socialising ++++, introduce new sights, sounds, smells and make everything FUN FUN FUN, this may take 6 months or a year but the difference it will make will astound you. Sure you can continue to use your home base agility equipment as a source of exercise and familiarisation. You can also go to training nights with dog and just walk around the grounds and use clicker and everytime dog shows positive signs such as tail wagging, greeting another dog or just standing near activity and not being 'fazed' click and reward, simple baby steps.

This poor dog has gone from one extreme to another with no in between, and so this is what the dog needs, some down time and some re group time, to relearn that there is more to life then 4 walls, being yelled at and a regimented routine.

You will also find the toilet training will fall into place as the dog becomes more familiar with the new routine and gains trust and confidence.

good luck and patience is really important in this situation.

[Salukifan]

Lots of good positive points here :)

You don't say what sort of dog it is you have, is it male/female? age? size etc. All of these things are important and also every single dog like humans have their own personality/temperment etc. Yep yep dogs are pack animals etc.....

firstly because this dog has been kenneled and a "show dog" it is like reprogramming or 'patterning' someone who has had a brain injury and needs to start from the beginning again.

Sorry but this is not a great analogy.

There's a difference between a disability and ignorance. This dog may not have the skills the OP wants but it is not "broken". There's every chance it got more training and more attention than many suburban pets, many of whom never set foot in a house either.

Frankly pretty much everything this dog does can be explained by soft temperament, not abuse or lack of environmental experience. I should know, I've got one just like it. This dog titled. That tells me it didn't fall apart when handled or in the ring and that its been out and about a bit. It has skills and experience.

Personally I think the sooner handlers stop finding excuses for why their dog does what it does and deal with the dog in front of them, the better things tend to go. You need to look forward, not back.

It's like handlers who say to me "oh my dog's a rescue" in some attempt to explain that the dog doesn't know or can't do something or should be given special consideration. Guess what folks, dogs move on.. best we do the same.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[The Spotted Devil]

woodbyne is this your Dally? I will await your reply before boring you with mine!

[voloclydes]

Great post hd, but a soft dog exposed to abuse does carry some reactional baggage. Which can come out when you least expect it too. It can always be the habit the revert to..... When you do something they find uncomfortable, same as horses.

They do move on I don't hassle Sophie about her toileting, as she used to eat all poop she could find under stress, even now when she insists on peeing and pooping right on the entrance steps and all over the path.

[Salukifan]

Great post hd, but a soft dog exposed to abuse does carry some reactional baggage.

No argument here. My point was not to assume that this dog's reactions stem from abuse. I've seen identical reactions from dogs that have never suffered abuse.

[canine fun sports]

Everyone has made lots of good suggestions, and not having seen the dog and handler it is difficult to make specific instuctions. The dog may be timid, undersocialised, confident but not enthusiastic, or as the title of the topic suggests, a generally confident dog that is genuinely scared of making a mistake.

So everyone has make good suggestions, that might be helpful in this case. I do, however, suggest that this in not the correct sentiment:

So I personally would not be doing anything in the obedience or agility ring until I had this dog loving me and rspecting me as the Alpha dog.

The bit about not doing anything in the ring for a while is fine. But, to train a dog, you do not have to be its boss. In fact, with some dogs that would be counter productive.

All you need to do is MAKE THE DOG WANT TO DO WHAT YOU WANT IT TO DO. You do this by controlling the resources that the dog wants, and this is what building a relationship is all about - creating things that you control that will make the dog want to react with you. You need to create a dog that thinks that there is nothing better than to tug with you (again, not my favourite) retrieve to you, have a rumble with you or receive food from you. The dog does not have to "feel he HAS TO do it so he gets something in return." You want the dog to "WANT TO do it so he gets to interact with you.

For example, I have one dog (an Agility Champion) who I cannot tell to do anything. But I can ask her to do something, and she knows I will give her what she wants in return. When she has done it she barks at me, which I can only interpret as "Well, give me that piece of cheese now or I am going on strike." I obey her! If I attempted to boss this dog around, she would undoubtedly go into her shell and sulk. I have done it, and she does not forgive me for quite some time. And a sulking "Rabbit" is a very unhappy dog.

This concept of being a dog's boss is irrelevant to training the dog. All you need to do is control what the dog wants, and part of being a good trainer is building that relationship so what your dog wants is doing a variety of things with you and is not worried about getting into trouble if they try the wrong thing. Doing the wrong things just means an oportunity to try again.

Someone earlier suggested a No-Reward-Marker to maintain neutrality when a mistake is made. They suggested "whoops", but I find this is often still too negative. I use a FUN tone to say "That was silly, you had better have another go at that". Or I might say "I'm not going to pay that - you had better have another go". I like to have conversations with my dogs; it is really the FUN tone that is important, combined with the fact that they did not get their treat/retrive/tug or whatever. The emaphsis is on the FUN tone, which is not the same as the "good dog tone"; it can be a little bit "rousing on them", but still challenging them to have another go to get it right. Then, while maintaining excitement (and speed) I will try the task again. If the "failure" is repeated then the task is simplified.

It is just so important that dogs are not worried about making a mistake. They need to know that what they did was the wrong thing to do or rather, if repeated still will not get themsomething they want), but if they worry about getting it wrong they will be more careful, and that usually means doing things slowly as well as carefully. Of course, we reward them for getting it right and the dog has a "light globe" moment: "Now I understand, I am supposed to do it slowly and carefully". How many times have we seen dogs, that were once fast, become slow and careful?

Cheers,

Edit: If you like, you can change the phrase "making a mistake" to "doing something my handler reacts to in a way that I (the dog) do not like". I am happy to do that, but "making a mistake" is the human perspective.

Edited April 4, 2012 by canine fun sports

[woodbyne]

100% agree with Canine Fun Sports.

I have been having the conversation on the weavers if she went wrong something like oh dear lets try again so will definately do that on the other equipment.

I live on the western side of Orange so no one near us so learning via trial and error hopefully less errors now.....

If anyone knows of anyone out our way happy to hear from you.