Agility Start Line Procedure

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Agility start line procedures...

I'm confused.

In the rules dated effective 1st July 2011

section 8.9 Orders from the Judge (pdf page 11)

The handler shall start their run on the instruction or signal of the judge.

After the Judge has indicated that the Handler may start the run and the Handler has crossed the Starting Line, the Handler cannot recross the Starting Line or return to the dog unless there is a refusal.

--------------------------------

So - all that stuff about are you ready, ready blah blah is gone.

I thought - based on what some judges had told me - that I could do what I like with my dog regards set up as long as neither of us have crossed the start line eg

I take the lead off, set her up, tell her to wait, let go, and she spooks because the first jump is nothing like she's seen before and nicks off, I can grab her and put her back. As long as neither of us have crossed the start line.

If I had crossed the start line and the dog nicks off or around the first jump - I could go back and start her again - as long as I don't touch her. That counts as a refusal, but it's not a dq.

Some judges are saying as soon as I've let go of her, I can't touch her again. Even if I haven't gone past the start line.

What is right? What variations the theme are there, and what's the best thing to do as a start line procedure in terms of lining the dog up and setting her? She's usually got a great start line, but competition has a way of finding weaknesses I didn't know we had.

[xena98]

Agility start line procedures...

I'm confused.

In the rules dated effective 1st July 2011

section 8.9 Orders from the Judge (pdf page 11)

The handler shall start their run on the instruction or signal of the judge.

After the Judge has indicated that the Handler may start the run and the Handler has crossed the Starting Line, the Handler cannot recross the Starting Line or return to the dog unless there is a refusal.

--------------------------------

So - all that stuff about are you ready, ready blah blah is gone.

I thought - based on what some judges had told me - that I could do what I like with my dog regards set up as long as neither of us have crossed the start line eg

I take the lead off, set her up, tell her to wait, let go, and she spooks because the first jump is nothing like she's seen before and nicks off, I can grab her and put her back. As long as neither of us have crossed the start line.

If I had crossed the start line and the dog nicks off or around the first jump - I could go back and start her again - as long as I don't touch her. That counts as a refusal, but it's not a dq.

Some judges are saying as soon as I've let go of her, I can't touch her again. Even if I haven't gone past the start line.

What is right? What variations the theme are there, and what's the best thing to do as a start line procedure in terms of lining the dog up and setting her? She's usually got a great start line, but competition has a way of finding weaknesses I didn't know we had.

I dont know never had that problem I just normally sit the dog and I go to my place and tell her ok go.lol. But I was led to believe that you can touch the collar etc and that once you said your ready you cant touch the dog and I didnt think you were allowed to go back once you have gone pass the jump

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

that once you said your ready you cant touch the dog and I didnt think you were allowed to go back once you have gone pass the jump

That pretty much sums up the previous "judges orders" rule for start line, but not the current ones.

There's been a few changes, my fave is for weaves. Ie if your dog butchers them, you don't have to go back, you can just keep going - it's a fault but not a dq. It is a dq if you go back and do it again not quite right - I think you have to send the dog back in where it popped out, if you repeat any bit eg go back to the start and try again its a dq - wrong course.

[xena98]

lol that's the problem I DQ myself as I would walk out the ring my girls have to do it properly knock the bar or miss the weavers out you go I dont allow my girls to do those things and than I go and practice (also depends how the knock bar get knocked as well but than I do tend to find that once we stuffed it becomes very messy so time to get out)also saying that my dogs dont tend to shut down and my girls want there rewards though so 75% of the time I can get a Q if I dont do something stupid

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

xena98

it's always my fault. I feel a bit naughty doing the agility runs cos we are in no way ready for that, so I do treat them a bit like training runs.

The worst bit is when something goes wrong or I'm not sure about whether or not I got the contact or I get lost, I shut down... and then my dog gets upset and confused... nothing like looking at the video to see me stuffing up and then the effect that has on the evil hound. Not good.

But I need the practice. It's my first dog and I'm making loads of mistakes with her.

The jumping courses at Gawler Mock trial - were very hard - in my opinion, there were changes of direction 3 or 4 obstacles in a row, so no way can I get a front cross in on every single one. And the Open - which I should not have done - cos I forgot/didn't know about the exclusion zone - which we have not trained at all, was on a pivot turn ie a complete spiral, but you had to stand outside the circle not in the middle like I would normally do. ARGH. Anyway I had a go at getting the first jump, but we stuffed that together - cos I stopped moving (can't cross the tape), so she wasn't sure about what to do next. And then I picked up and treated it like a normal run... blah blah

Anyway - that's all besides the point. I really need to get some gear I can train at home and the park with. Especially the go-outs. Or get that first title and then training at club should be easier.

I'm still 100% fuzzy on what the start line protocol is.

What I do in training - is if she moves, I turn her round and set her again. Reward is to release her if she hasn't moved. Sometimes I reward with food at training - especially if the instructors are distracted and I just need to stop dog from getting bored. But she likes the release and chase better.

For me it would be really tough to leave if we make a mistake, in Cananda they can use the ring as a training run if that happens, ie go back - reset the dog and start again - though it won't count for points/prizes. Here - not so much. Well that's what mock trials are for.

So I know if I want to be half as good as you, I should reconsider what I'm letting evil hound practice in the ring. But I also need to practice in the ring: recovery when I get lost and adapting when my dog isn't where I thought she'd be, ie the whole timing and speed thing - how fast do I need to get from A to B, will my dog be ahead or behind me, and how will that affect both of us...

The start line, and finish and how long it takes to run 10 dogs around a course - ie how long does it take me and dog to be ready to go - so when do I get her out... ie 10 dogs is too many, 3 is about right - and just when you thought there was 3, it turns out there was really 8 dogs ahead of me - curses. And remembering to put lead on before get out ring, despite next dog being lined up ready to go... All that stuff can only be learned by doing competitions for me.

[FHRP]

Agility start line procedures...

I'm confused.

In the rules dated effective 1st July 2011

section 8.9 Orders from the Judge (pdf page 11)

The handler shall start their run on the instruction or signal of the judge.

After the Judge has indicated that the Handler may start the run and the Handler has crossed the Starting Line, the Handler cannot recross the Starting Line or return to the dog unless there is a refusal.

--------------------------------

So - all that stuff about are you ready, ready blah blah is gone.

I thought - based on what some judges had told me - that I could do what I like with my dog regards set up as long as neither of us have crossed the start line eg

I take the lead off, set her up, tell her to wait, let go, and she spooks because the first jump is nothing like she's seen before and nicks off, I can grab her and put her back. As long as neither of us have crossed the start line.

If you haven't indicated ot the judge you are ready and they haven't said go, then you should not be dq'd. If you have said you're ready and the judge has said 'go' or whatever their procedure is, then you are being judged and could be dq'd for:

9.16 Disqualification

A dogwill be disqualified if:

g) the Handler physically contacts the dog in a manner that assists it.

or this one, but I don't think it applies to what you're talking about, I interpret it more as propelling the dog over the start :)

n) If the handler physically assists the dog over the line at the start

If I had crossed the start line and the dog nicks off or around the first jump - I could go back and start her again - as long as I don't touch her. That counts as a refusal, but it's not a dq.

Correct

9.16 Disqualification

A dogwill be disqualified if:

k) after the Judge has indicated that the Handler may start and the Handler has crossed the Starting Line, the Handler returns across the Starting Line, unless a refusal has occurred.

Some judges are saying as soon as I've let go of her, I can't touch her again. Even if I haven't gone past the start line.

I would take it as a rule that if you've indicated you are ready then do not touch your dog again.

What is right? What variations the theme are there, and what's the best thing to do as a start line procedure in terms of lining the dog up and setting her? She's usually got a great start line, but competition has a way of finding weaknesses I didn't know we had.

Make sure you're at the judges briefing and ensure they explain their start line procedure. Ask for clarification if you're unsure.

Edited April 3, 2012 by FHRP

[zeebie]

I am presuming you are referring to ANKC agility?

It is polite irrespective as to whether judge says anything to make eye contact and nod to acknowledge you are ready to start, and also be ready as soon as previous competitor is off the course.

Practice your start line procedure away from the competition in home time, set up a couple jumps and ensure your dog knows start procedure, have a word eg 'go' or 'free' or whatever you want to use and if starting dog where you are beside it start well back and practice running from behind and having dog jump and then reward for correct procedure, this may eliminate any run arounds or run aways!

Other option is the dog sitting and you walking out to 2nd or 3rd object and then freeing your dog to start, but you must be 100% confident that your dog is happy to do this and will go over the first object, so it is all about knowing your dog.

Depending entirely on course and distance/time allowed I will often have my dog do a running start where I set dog up about 3 -5 metres back from first object and after acknowledging judge will just take off and run hard with dog running beside and at first jump I will indicate to dog "over" after that we are off and running the course no problem.

I have also taught my dog to go "back", which means if I am out on the course and dog creeps forward too close to first jump bar I can send him 'back' so he actually will travel backwards a few metres and drop, this way I do not have to go back around the first jump and definately don't need to touch him as he does the work himself. Again this is something you can practice and work on.

If your dog is consistently spooking at the start line and going around it, look at your body language and assess is the dog doing this because of something you are doing, I know I do get very nervous at start so what I use to do was take deep breath walk dog in circle before I would get to start line and say a little mantra to myself, like "I am ready, my dog is ready, and we are going to succeed and have fun" It is amazing how calming it is because your mind is distracted away from thinking about any problems that could happen.

Good luck and practice the start sequence :)

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Thanks for all your replies.

FHRP - I think with the new ANKC rules - the judge can deem you ready whether you say anything or not, they don't have to have the ask and answer conversation with you, though they can if they want.

So some are saying effectively if they think I'm ready - and they indicate I may go when I'm ready - I can't touch my dog again...

So what seems to work is I keep hold of her until I've told her to wait, and then I look up and make eye contact with the judge - to see if they're ready... and they say I may go - which means they are - and then I lead out or not depending what my dog is doing... I've got a reasonable remote drop so I guess if she nicks off, I could put her in a drop, just so we can get started - without a lead out as zeebie suggests.

As far as I know - we only have ANKC rules agility/jumping/games/obedience in SA. Not sure how to get the other comp up.

She's not doing anything the same twice, which I guess is a good thing ie it's not a distinct pattern or I'm not training one in. But we've only just started so it's hard to say. We also need somehow to practice on all different gear so she doesn't tell me - this gear is wrong, but I may need the novice title to be able to do that at our clubs.

I think our weaves are sometimes going to hell because the competition weaves have a flat metal strip between them, and our training weaves are just poles in the ground. So she treads on the metal and that puts her off her stride. So we need to do some practice runs on the competition standard weaves too.

[kelpiechick]

FHRP - I think with the new ANKC rules - the judge can deem you ready whether you say anything or not, they don't have to have the ask and answer conversation with you, though they can if they want.

So some are saying effectively if they think I'm ready - and they indicate I may go when I'm ready - I can't touch my dog again...

Probably best to determine what the judges in your state actually do. I trialled in SA once last year and I'm pretty sure with the two SA judges I ran under it was the same as Vic - and this was after the new rule introduction.

In Vic. most judges will still ask you 'are you ready?' After you indicate you are, you cannot touch your dog in any manner. Even the handful who will just say 'go when you're ready' will still wait until you have set your dog up and have hands off before saying this. The judge still has to verbally indicate to you that you can go, so there has to be some form of 'conversation' even if it's one sided.

[FHRP]

So what seems to work is I keep hold of her until I've told her to wait, and then I look up and make eye contact with the judge - to see if they're ready... and they say I may go - which means they are - and then I lead out or not depending what my dog is doing... I've got a reasonable remote drop so I guess if she nicks off, I could put her in a drop, just so we can get started - without a lead out as zeebie suggests.

They may not ask, and I'm not sure they had to under the old rules, but they will say at briefing what their procedure is. If when you give eye contact they consider it an indication you are ready and they say you may go, then you can assume you're being judged and can not make contact with your dog agian. Like I said, if in doubt ask for clarification at briefing.

eta. We have a SA judge this weekend, I'll pay attention to what he does :) I never go to make contact with my dog after they are set up though.

Edited April 3, 2012 by FHRP

[canine fun sports]

My judge's briefing goes someting like this:

Your steward will ask you to come into the ring when the previous dog is at obstacle "X". You can then enter the ring and take up your position. You may leave the dog on lead, or hold his collar at that time. But give your lead/collar or the steward as the previous dog finishes. I would like to be able to call out the previous dog's score and then turn and say "When you are ready go". (At large NSW trials, this will save 15 to 60 seconds per competitor, and the trial will finish an hour or two earlier - in daylight.) You may acknowledge me, but if you or your dog goes over the starting line, I will assume that is acknowledgement. If your dog goes over the start line before I ask, I consider that the dog is already in play so keep going. If the stewards, by chance are ready, you will get a score. If not, you will be disqualified using rule 7.5 which reads:

MISBEHAVIOUR. If before, during or after the test, the dog or Hanlder is guilty of any breach of the Rules, or other misbehaviour, a minimum penalty of five faults and up to disqualification shall be incurred.

I know a lot of people think this is a bit tough, but there have been several NSW triallers who do not pay attention to their over excited dogs that take off and do a few obstacles before the judge starts. They were doing it every time, and wasting the time of a lot of people (including making me stay out in the sun or rain longer than I needed to.Besides, I allow them to keep the dog on lead to position them etc.

I do expect people to have their hands off their dog before they start, but I am not a stickler for this, but will certainly penalise a dog that may have been propelled over the line.

As to your other questions, I think FRHP has pretty much covered it all.

Relating it back to the Nationals (as everything seems to at this time) I am hoping we can get standardised starting procedures for all the judges, but failing that, I hope to get judges to print out their starting instructions so they can be posted outside the ring. I can see that it will be difficult for everyone to get to every briefing.

Cheers,

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

But give your lead/collar or the steward as the previous dog finishes. I would like to be able to call out the previous dog's score and then turn and say "When you are ready go". (At large NSW trials, this will save 15 to 60 seconds per competitor, and the trial will finish an hour or two earlier - in daylight.) You may acknowledge me, but if you or your dog goes over the starting line, I will assume that is acknowledgement.

canine fun sports...

That all makes good sense to me. But what if dog and I haven't crossed the start line at all?

That's the problem I'm having.

SA judges - at the same comp - eg the jumping course and the agility course - are expressing different opinions on how it goes.

an indication you are ready and they say you may go, then you can assume you're being judged and can not make contact with your dog agian

FHRP - there are definitely some judges are calling it this way. Ie they say "you may go" as soon as I let go the dog, and well before either of us have crossed the start line... and according to them I can't touch the dog again. But as best I can tell from the current (new) rules, I haven't started. Or have I. It's actually a bit ambiguous ie I'm started when the judge says I am, or I'm started when I cross the start line.

It definitely pays to get clarification from the judge about how they deem things. And I'm definitely going to have to work on a better start line stay - but it's hard when all the clubs have different equipment and evil hound has decided to spook at new stuff. Hmm, plan... Line her up for stays in front of all sorts of weird stuff... Playground equipment might be fun.

[pie]

It's not unusual for novice dogs to baulk at the first obstacle because of the timing gates - you could use extra equipment to make the first jump look different at training to get the dog used to it (extra jump uprights etc).

[J...]

And I'm definitely going to have to work on a better start line stay

This - you need to be working on your transitions so there is no faffing around in front of the start line obstacle. Your dog should know what her start line procedure is, and when you ask for it she should give it now - no matter what you are sitting her in front of. To be honest if you can't do this then you probably shouldn't be trialling, because you're allowing your dog to practise stuff she shouldn't be practising. Yes Novice dogs make mistakes here and there but it sounds to me like this is far more than the occasional mistake.

If you are genuinely doing this for training purposes then it shouldn't matter if you get DQ'd or not, but don't take judges for granted in order to train your dog in the ring because the ring is not the place to train them. If you do it as a once off, that's fine - let the judge know out of courtesy, don't waste their time and don't take any more than SCT in the ring. Having not long gone through Novice again with my second dog, it shocked me to see what judges were expected to put up with in Novice. Even more so that many tolerated it

[Kavik]

Generally I think once you acknowledge the judge and leave/let go of your dog you can't go back to them. If you are working on it and decide due to criteria that you want to go back, I wouldn't worry, go back and just DQ yourself. (ETA: Kaos has me trained rather well After a few times where he absolutely refused to sit at the start line no matter what I did, I now place him in a stand :laugh: which works fine, he will stay there til released. But he wants to sit at training.)

With your weaves issue - can you practice on solid base poles in class at all? I found it did take some time for Kaos to transition to weaving well on solid base poles after training on stick in the ground poles.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Kavik

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

it sounds to me like this is far more than the occasional mistake

Not really.

I've only done one counts for points trial. Got a perfect start line stay at the first run which happened to be jumping - and I was confident about running that, nice straight forward course with no tricky bits. And we finished in 22 seconds out of 33 allowed, and got second place, beaten by a labradoodle.

Next start was agility which I was not that confident about - and that's where she spooked - which I didn't expect ie it's very unsual for her - she doesn't do this at training - unless the instructor starts talking to me after I've set her - which does indeed send the transition to hell. I don't think very many in SA have a good handle on how important a quick transition is. One of these instructors even went to the Derrett seminar too. And this was where I'd let go of her but hadn't moved so when I went to put her back - the judge was yelling at me. And then it became a training run - which the judge had said we could do as long as we didn't take too long - given it's novice (aka beginners). We did start ok after that and then stuffed the table for good measure. None of it was the dog's fault, I just expected a bit much and lead out too far, and I might have sent her at the table too fast, and there were two more obstacles after it in a straight line... We mostly practice table with a change of direction ie there are no more obstacles past it so I guess that was a "trap" and I didn't pick up on it or adjust accordingly.

Next three starts were the mock trial so they were indeed for training. Got a paw movement on the first one (open), perfect on the next one (novice agility) and a stress shake on the last one (novice jumping) so not ideal but not as horrible as the agility start in the first trial.

I think I am to the point now were I can't learn or train much more at club until I get into the "trialing class", I have to get out there and do and learn from mistakes you only make in the ring with stewards and friends who like to feed your dog treats at club, and judges who set courses that you haven't seen the like of, on equipment you haven't seen before.

The courses at the mock trial were much harder in terms of remembering where to go next and how to get there than the ones at the counts for points trial. And I made the mistake of entering open at the mock trial so I did tell the judge what was going to happen there. And I learned a whole lot about me and how what I do affects the dog doing it - which is good. Better than doing that in a for points trial and will help all my training.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Generally I think once you acknowledge the judge and leave/let go of your dog you can't go back to them

I think this is what I'm going to have to assume - though it's a bit unclear in the current rules. So while the judges might not all agree and it would definitely be worth finding out at each trial - it will be still better to have a proper start line stay against all distractions and delays (like letting go and finding out the judge or steward isn't ready).

With your weaves issue - can you practice on solid base poles in class at all? I found it did take some time for Kaos to transition to weaving well on solid base poles after training on stick in the ground poles

Gawd - glad I'm not the only one. I will have to ask at next club training. I might have to borrow some. Though they're a bit awkward to cart around and set up and my back yard isn't quite big enough for a full set.

[wuffles]

IMO your issues sound completely normal for a Novice dog and handler and as long as you're not purposefully mucking things up I don't see why anyone should get grumpy with you!

Not everyone has a huge backyard with their own agility equipment... I can't even fit a set of weave poles in my backyard. We're in Novice too, and trialling IS a form of training for us as we rarely run a full Novice course otherwise (we train with the more experienced triallers, so our weekly training sessions are generally short sequences and courses around Excellent level (which are still too hard for us). Although all the other triallers and judges have been really nice to us so far despite our newbishness :)

So I'd just take the advice from the others on here - and if something goes wrong, apologise and try again next time.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

So I'd just take the advice from the others on here - and if something goes wrong, apologise and try again next time.

Yes, I'm good with this one. Mostly I started the thread because Judges at the same trial eg one on jumping and the other on agility - are saying different things about what you can do by way of setting up, and when you were deemed "started"...

I guess Judges do that, and it's up to me to find out what each one wants and work with that. I'm pretty used to officials all having different interpretations on things from playing and umpiring hockey. No point arguing about what's right, just find out what they think is right and get on with it.

Given I'm novice too - ie it's the first time round in this for me - I'm not willing to quit a run because she moved a paw. But I really would like to reset her (grab her collar and turn a circle and line her up again). And I do have to pay more attention to what the start (and finish) looks like from the dog's point of view. Funny how that is not an issue at training.

[J...]

Mock trials are fine for training, that's what they are for. SA is lucky in that they seem to do a few, we only get them every few years Most people do the occasional training in the ring, just as long as you don't push it - especially with the wrong judges.

A judge yelling at a Novice handler is poor form, ask some seasoned triallers who the more understanding judges are to enter under - some are far more tolerant than others.

Sadly your instructor isn't on their own not taking in the latest information, even in regards to simple good dog training. The negative attitude towards anything like that shits me to tears so I train on my own these days 95% of the time, and I don't have the backyard for it either. Most of my training is done on the flat or by carting my gear in and out which is bloody time consuming, but if I want to train that's what I have to do.