Her Majesty Dogmad Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Why don't they just post when the dog actually has rescue, the name of the group and how to donate directly to them? A far more honest and open way of operating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amp Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Why don't they just post when the dog actually has rescue, the name of the group and how to donate directly to them? A far more honest and open way of operating. because then they would not be able to prey on peoples emotions. Nothing is ever listed for after the fact. They probably don't even know what happens as they are only passing on the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 So perhaps it would be in the dog's best interests and the ethical rescue group's best interests to work with them - take their money for dogs you feel are able to be re - homed allow them to help with finances for vetting, transport etc and do what needs to be done to find them homes ethically and using foster carers who have the necessary experience and skills. Perhaps we need to really promote ethical rescue groups and give a warning about simply taking a dog from the pound but that means a whole new bunch of fanatics will be staring us out. Perhaps, but just getting dogs out of pounds doesn't solve anything in the long run. I cringe when I hear the Canberra pound brag about its high rehoming rates because the clear message is, it's OK to surrender your dog, someone else will find it a home. Ultimately it does not serve dogs in general for there to be churning of dogs through the system. How you have that discussion without being accused of being a PETA style dog mass murderer is beyond me right now, but the aim of getting as many dogs out of pounds as possible regardless of their prospects is not a worthy aim or one I'd want to work with. My approach has been the same as it is for other scamming - emotional and/or financial. To direct people who want to help to organisations that are ethical. I think that is what you are suggesting too later in your post. The problem of owners is also one I've been wrestling with in my head. There is so much discussion about breeders (of all kinds), rescue and pet shops, but we don't seem to have demanded a public debate about crap dog ownership. Because churn is not just a problem at this end, but also further up the supply chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amp Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 OK - if PR are using their 16D to get dogs out of pounds, aren't those animals chipped to them by said pounds? Then PR must report all animals released under that 16D to the DLG, right? And those reports must marry up to the reports from the pounds as to which animals were released under which 16D... yes? Maybe if someone contacts the DLG about PR and convinces them that an audit is in order... ? As for the fundraising and charity status thing, the ATO has quite strict reporting guidelines - especially if said charity is bringing in large sums of money. It ALL must be accounted for fully, and is also subject to arbitrary auditing. Maybe this group could be brought to their attention also... The pounds aren't going to stop letting them get dogs out - it's more lucrative for any dog to leave their care rather than be euthed and then they incur disposal costs etc... I hate Facebook with a passion - but anyone who knows how it works could always start up another group page maybe asking people to tell their PR horror stories - then spam the hell out of the PR pages with links to the horror story page... fight fire with fire I say! For sure the horror story page will soon fill up with stories from those left high and dry by PR, and you can then control what is posted there so the truth isn't deleted willy nilly... *grin* T. Please excuse my ignorance what is DLG? I thought of starting a page but not sure how to do it without infringing...working on that lol They said they have Charity Fundraising status but nothing from the ATO...yet - wonder how long that has been 'applied' for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozsomerset Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 When investigating a dog attack it IS important who starts the fight. You must investigate without emotion or prejudice. Someone has already stated....its not the breed but how the dog was brought up. Still doesn't take away from the fact that all history must be reported to potential new owners Can someone provide me with proof, not supposition, that this group is acting outside the law and 16d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 When investigating a dog attack it IS important who starts the fight. You must investigate without emotion or prejudice. Someone has already stated....its not the breed but how the dog was brought up. Still doesn't take away from the fact that all history must be reported to potential new owners Can someone provide me with proof, not supposition, that this group is acting outside the law and 16d It doesn't matter who "starts" it when it comes to most Bull breeds and crosses, the point is the majority of them are reactive and will finish what someone else starts. Any dog that has been involved in the death of another, especially the mauling of a much smaller dog, should not be rehomed by "rescue" under any circumstances. The dog is question has proven at the very least to be "reactive" and that it poses a danger to other dogs. I feel very sorry that someone has lost their much loved pet and that dog would never have made it out of my yard and into the hands of another, it would have been a one way trip to the vet to be euth'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRT RESCUE Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Because they have a 16d they are a rescue group as such and when taking dogs from the pounds they do not have to pay for them. Yes I agree the problem was that they probably didn't do a meeting of the two dogs to see if they would get along, which is always needed, even when I have people coming to adopt I ask them to bring along their own dog to make sure they get along before allowing the adoption to go ahead. They keep saying they refer their carer adoption applications onto other groups, which groups are they, do anybody on here take dogs from them? The difference I can see with their carers and the way I work is - once a dog goes into care with them if there is a problem they don't want to know and the person is left with the dog to do whatever, mine I am always there and if a problem comes about then the dog comes straight back to me for further assessment. Steve the problem with us working with them from what I can see is that most proper rescue groups have already been into the pounds and assessed most of these dogs and realised that they shouldn't be saved for whatever reason but as somebody else said they take them all no matter what, which is the biggest problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TillyDevine Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Can't they be reported to the department of fair trading for scamming people out of money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Because they have a 16d they are a rescue group as such and when taking dogs from the pounds they do not have to pay for them. Yes I agree the problem was that they probably didn't do a meeting of the two dogs to see if they would get along, which is always needed, even when I have people coming to adopt I ask them to bring along their own dog to make sure they get along before allowing the adoption to go ahead. They keep saying they refer their carer adoption applications onto other groups, which groups are they, do anybody on here take dogs from them? The difference I can see with their carers and the way I work is - once a dog goes into care with them if there is a problem they don't want to know and the person is left with the dog to do whatever, mine I am always there and if a problem comes about then the dog comes straight back to me for further assessment. Steve the problem with us working with them from what I can see is that most proper rescue groups have already been into the pounds and assessed most of these dogs and realised that they shouldn't be saved for whatever reason but as somebody else said they take them all no matter what, which is the biggest problem. Yes and by now they have behaved so un professionally and attacked other people and groups so who would want to work with them. I dont see how they can have it both ways - a rescue with a 16d or not a rescue but an agent. As far as non profit orgs are concerned - Pacers has to have an annual audit and put our books into ATO every year - and its all covered by Asic this is something we cant get out of and we spend more money on that than any other admin expense.We also have to have approvals per state to fundraise - which you cant get without your yearly audits and if they arent done on time they cancel your approvals - that's because we are a registered charity - a company limited by guarantee and have tax deductible gift recipient status but many - most- non profits don't have to be accountable to any where near that degree - depends what type of entity they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartok Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Can't they be reported to the department of fair trading for scamming people out of money? how are they scamming? the money is used in some way to save dogs, regardless if we agree with their approach to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowgirl Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Now, hang on a minute! Wasn't the dog that was the catalyst for this thread fostered through PR, returned to PR, was then kenneled by PR, was assessed by PR, sent to another foster carer with PR and subsequently advertised for rehoming by PR? yeap, but another thing to throw in just to confuse things a bit more and make sure it doesn't seem like they are related back to PR is that people are now starting up rescue's on a social networking site, the people starting these 'rescues' are PR people in some way, some are in other states, some are in the same area. So someone may not even know they are really getting a dog through PR's......... hope this makes some sense Yes, I'm afraid that does make sense Malti . Facebook has been a fantastic source of support for my little group, I've been lucky enough to have met so many wonderful people because of it, but when it's used to prey on people's emotions and guilt them into donating it's just evil, and it's happening all the time. And the ethical rescues get lumped into the mess when the crap hits the fan with the dodgy ones ...... They keep saying they refer their carer adoption applications onto other groups, which groups are they, do anybody on here take dogs from them? ......... I know that the dodgy SA group here take dogs through them. If the release fees and transport are paid for by PR it just makes it easier for them to get more dogs. PR also actively push dogs onto this particular rescue too, they know they'll take just about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PL_ Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Can't they be reported to the department of fair trading for scamming people out of money? how are they scamming? the money is used in some way to save dogs, regardless if we agree with their approach to it. Ask the rescues who have taken dogs on at the last minute after they've done the rounds of FB in the PR album -- gaining funds and support, then left on the PTS list. Don't be surprised that people call it a scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryptic Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 The whole point of this thread is that the dogs history is not only being hidden but also the dog is being promoted as great with all animals. Morally wrong on so many levels regardless of who started the dog attack. . The damage control is starting. The head of this organisation has called someone this morning to say that they know nothing about what is happening. They are reading this thread no doubt. Another person that is at the top of the chain was the one who attacked me via pm on facebook. Which i have kept & coppied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Can't they be reported to the department of fair trading for scamming people out of money? how are they scamming? the money is used in some way to save dogs, regardless if we agree with their approach to it. Of course people are going to call it a scam when you ask PR to show where the money goes and your comments go unanswered and deleted. No they don't owe the general public a breakdown of their accounts, but it'd be nice to see updates of dogs they've helped/funded/vetted to show that they are what they say they are. At the moment all they do is advertise on FB and call for donations, no follow up on dogs they save or where all this money goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malti Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I think the group need to get their story straight, on looking at their site it clearly states they have foster carers. One even stated a dog that went missing was microchipped to pound rounds. They really need to start figuring out what they are or are not, not just contradict themselves continuously. They also state they put themselves between pounds and adoptions, but take no responsibility from that, but it is just to save people money. This group of people are just beyond words, and preying on people who have good intentions and do not know what they are really contributing to is very sad. Their financial claims of not covering a third of their costs seems a bit too much to believe as well. When will it end Yes but I think they see foster carers as different to the way they are seen traditionally. For most a foster carer is attached to a group and works under their policies ,covered by their insurances etc - but these guys sort of see them as private contractors .So they have them working for them [ voluntarily ] but they dont really work for them they work for them selves. [voluntarily] Its different but legal. But if they are giving their 'foster carers' dogs that are microchipped in their name(they stated in one of their facts) they are their responsibility aren't they? Especially having a 16D, the information on the dog would need to be changed into another persons name, but until then they are legally responsible for the dog and what happens, isn't that law? The way they see it and what is actually representative of their responsibilities does not mean they skirt the law from my understanding. Just on the issue of other people working with them, unfortunately they have attacked rescue groups, people, and people that actually work hard at being ethical and responsible in dog rescue. Why would anyone want to work with them? They are seen to have questionable practices, and from what I have seen, if you do fall out with them it is fairly vindictive, and childish that only allows people to be railroaded by them to do things their way. I have seen on facebook where someone was a 'foster carer' and that 'foster carer' believing they were working with that rescue group and tried contacting them, only for the rescue group to not know of the person or the dog in question. This is where it gets worse. How many dogs are out there with microchips in a rescues names that they do not know about? or is it only a one off incident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amp Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I think the group need to get their story straight, on looking at their site it clearly states they have foster carers. One even stated a dog that went missing was microchipped to pound rounds. They really need to start figuring out what they are or are not, not just contradict themselves continuously. They also state they put themselves between pounds and adoptions, but take no responsibility from that, but it is just to save people money. This group of people are just beyond words, and preying on people who have good intentions and do not know what they are really contributing to is very sad. Their financial claims of not covering a third of their costs seems a bit too much to believe as well. When will it end Yes but I think they see foster carers as different to the way they are seen traditionally. For most a foster carer is attached to a group and works under their policies ,covered by their insurances etc - but these guys sort of see them as private contractors .So they have them working for them [ voluntarily ] but they dont really work for them they work for them selves. [voluntarily] Its different but legal. But if they are giving their 'foster carers' dogs that are microchipped in their name(they stated in one of their facts) they are their responsibility aren't they? Especially having a 16D, the information on the dog would need to be changed into another persons name, but until then they are legally responsible for the dog and what happens, isn't that law? The way they see it and what is actually representative of their responsibilities does not mean they skirt the law from my understanding. Just on the issue of other people working with them, unfortunately they have attacked rescue groups, people, and people that actually work hard at being ethical and responsible in dog rescue. Why would anyone want to work with them? They are seen to have questionable practices, and from what I have seen, if you do fall out with them it is fairly vindictive, and childish that only allows people to be railroaded by them to do things their way. I have seen on facebook where someone was a 'foster carer' and that 'foster carer' believing they were working with that rescue group and tried contacting them, only for the rescue group to not know of the person or the dog in question. This is where it gets worse. How many dogs are out there with microchips in a rescues names that they do not know about? or is it only a one off incident? I have searched 16d clause & they are NOT listed as having it. The only thing they claim to have is Charity Fundraising Number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boronia Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 (edited) I don't see the Charity number on the ASIC Register According to ASIC it is deregistered on 9/03/2012 Does that mean that it is now registered as a Charity somewhere else? Edited April 5, 2012 by Boronia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRT RESCUE Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 That is a deregistration of Incorporation, not charity status and as far as I am concerned you don't have charity status until you can issue tax receipts which is approved by the ATO which they don't have, they are registered with a CFN which means they are allowed to fund raise but not give out tax receipts so people can claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan B Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 (edited) I have searched 16d clause & they are NOT listed as having it. NSW Government Gazette 28 October - Page 6367. :) EDIT: Also here, for those who don't want to search so much! Edited April 5, 2012 by Plan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 amp - DLG is the Division of Local Government here in NSW... http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/dlg_index.asp DLG has Pound Rounds listed as a 16D exemption holder in their 23/2/2012 circular... see attached file... Approved Organisations - Clause 16(d) exemption - as at 23_02_2012-1.pdf T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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