Merci Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 My brother has a German Shepard pup that is shy of 12 months old. Our family has had a few german Shepards over the years and are aware of the problems so he went to a breeder and made sure he got a pup with papers so that there was a better chance of ethical breeding. My brother followed the breeder's advice with food, exercise and so forth. In addition, because he was aware of the hip displacia problem he always made sure that the dog was lifted into and from the truck and generally not allowed to jump. At about 6 months the pup had issues with growing and its front elbow join's cartilage started to split which the vet treated it for. Now, at 10-11 months the poor dog is going in to get surgery on each hip to correct the quite bad displacia. I said to my brother, you should call the breeder to let them know. He said the vet had already called and the breeder's response is that their dogs do not get hip displacia and therefore it must have been environmental. I would think that this was a bit of a fib since hip displacia is prevalent in German Shepards and when my brother was there he said that there was several litters and alot of dogs at this kennel. I cannot believe that not a single one of these dogs had hip displacia (but I could be wrong, I am not a breeder or even an owner anymore). SO, my questions are: Do you think this is a suitable response to someone telling you that there was something wrong with a pup you had bred? What is environmental hip displacia and could it have been 'environmental'? (I would like to note that my brother's house is fully carpeted and has about 6 stairs internally but since the front leg issue they have tried to limit the stair action) Is there anything further that should be done re the breeder? I am really upset that the poor puppy is going through so much pain and the breeder doesn't even care that they are spinning out dogs like this or at least not warning against 'environmental' hip displacia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 No it's not a suitable response from the breeder. Hip dysplasia is genetic, particularly if it is in both hips, but environmental factors can cause it to deteriorate faster The breeder doesn't sound as though they wish to take any responsibility so it's up to your brother if he wishes to pursue it further. Perhaps check with the GSDC in the state - they might have a policy regarding testing and scores and if that breeder is part ofthe club you could report them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Your brother should call and discuss the issue (calmly and without accusation) with the breeder themselves. No good taking what was said second and third hand. Things can get misinterpreted that way and sometimes blown way out of proportion. Talk first. THEN decide what further there is to do. Remember that HD can sometimes occur regardless of the breeder doing everything right (and the owner doing the right thing too). Starting a slanging match with breeder, particularly when your brother has not talked to them directly, will not help the dog. Edited March 27, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merci Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 I agree that I do not know what the vet said to the breeder and I only assumed that he would have done so report/get all the information. If my brother did call the breeder directly to talk to them what would he expect the breeder to do? I had assumed that they would take note of the situation and maybe offer a partial refund. I just thought that by telling the breeder they would want to know for future breeding purposes not because there is anything that can actually be done at this stage. Thanks for the responses btw. I kinda just blurted things out :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Was there a contract of sale? Were any health guarantees stipulated? Was your brother informed of the sire and dams hip scores and was HD discussed? These can all be relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Was there a contract of sale? Were any health guarantees stipulated? Was your brother informed of the sire and dams hip scores and was HD discussed? These can all be relevant. I agree with re checking paperwork/correspondence prior to him buying the pup. When he speaks with them, it all needs to be factual and calm. Was it your local vet who did the hip Xrays? Are they experienced in doing/interpreting H D Xrays? Before your brother gets too far in.. and if it hasn't been done ...maybe take the dog to an orthopaedic vet - then there is no argument ;) there was several litters and alot of dogs at this kennel Just out of curiosity ....How many is 'a lot' ? 6, 15, 24? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Why did the vet ring the breeder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 A few things spring to mind: * No breeder, no matter how good, can guarantee that a dog won't get hip dysplasia. The parents can have great scores and produce bad pups. Obviously, having good parents decreases the chances of problems in pups but it still happens. So the breeder is fibbing - any breeder who says "my lines don't have problems" is fibbing! * It can be environmental I believe. Lots of running up and down stairs, jumping, jumping in and out of the car etc can contribute to problems. It doesn't need to be a lot of stairs either. The breeder should have explained this to your brother. Some do, but people are so happy when they pick up their new pup that this kind of info doesn't register. * Most vets can't properly diagnose hip dysplasia and there are very few people qualified in Australia to do a proper hip and elbow score. Of course, most vets don't tell people this. Don't get me wrong, they are still fantastic vets and genuinely believe they are giving good advice. If I was your brother, I'd get someone like Ray Ferguson to do the x-rays and score them before I forked out $$$ for surgery that may be unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 It doesn't matter what is written on the invoice as long as there is one to prove the dog was sold. All hip displasia is genetic. Environment can only worsen it or bring it on earlier. Think about it. What sort of environment rips a dog's hip ball-joint out of its socket? It can only happen if the socket is faulty in the first place. I would expect the breeder to pay for the corrective surgery, at least up to the purchase price of the dog. Or to offer a full refund (without insisting on the dog's return). An ethical breeder would do that, as the dog they sold has a bad fault. In this situation I would go to the small claims court where you have a good chance of having the breeder ordered to pay the full cost of any surgery and aftercare as well. Send the breeder a written ultimatum. Money back in 7 days or see you in small claims court buddy. Don't accept them fobbing you off. You have nothing to lose except $50 and a few hours of your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 If I was your brother, I'd get someone like Ray Ferguson to do the x-rays and score them before I forked out $$$ for surgery that may be unnecessary. This. I would go to a vet experienced in taking hip xrays and get an experts opinion on them before doing anything else. The other thing to remember is you are talking about a living breathing creature and sometime sh!t happens for no good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andisa Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Has the dog had xrays to confirm HD by a specialist yet? I am curious why the vet called the breeder, never heard of that happening before, they would generally suggest you contact the breeder - not take it upon themselves to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepherds Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 If I was your brother, I'd get someone like Ray Ferguson to do the x-rays and score them before I forked out $$$ for surgery that may be unnecessary. This. I would go to a vet experienced in taking hip xrays and get an experts opinion on them before doing anything else. The other thing to remember is you are talking about a living breathing creature and sometime sh!t happens for no good reason. This!!!!!! Cant stress this highly enough - get an opinion from someone qualified to provide an opinion with the relevant experience in GSD's. I have seen and heard of too many cases of vets telling owners their dogs have HD when they dont. Also as a matter of priority as others have recommended - get your brother to talk to the breeder directly themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 i agree with the above suggestions! I would be getting this young dog hip x-rayed by someone who actually knows what they are doing (someone the GSDC recommends)!...I have heard of vets diagnosing GSD puppies incorrectly. Did your brother get hip and elbow certificates for the parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Question it would be good to ask your brother. Has your brothers dog been xrayed and assessed correctly ? - his vet might not be a specialist in this field and it is something that can be misdiagnosed You say that it was registered dog - did he actually get papers or just that "the parents are registered" ? Were both parents breed surveyed....? Where both parents xrayed and did your brother see/receive a copy of the papers and the scores? I have had quite a few shepherds over the years as well as bred litters and always from breed surveyed stock - have never had any problems with hips or elbows and had my own stock xrayed to confirm - It is very likely that a breeder might say that he doesn't have HD in his lines as perhaps there have been many dogs bred thru these lines without problems. But the only way the breeder would know this is having a history of the HD scheme which would be available thru the breed survey system. However in the breeders defence it does seem that your information from what he has said has come third hand, as it was the vet who spoke to the breeder and then the vet to your brother and then your brother to you..... then you on here.... each conversation can be 'modified' which means the breeder could easily be seen as the bad guy. I have many books of the breed surveys conducted throughout the late '70's thru to early '90's which was great when it came to researching potential sires. I believe that there has been a major record book published to continue providing this information. From my 15 years involved thru the GSDCV, HD is no where near as common as many vets seemed to think. However I will admit that I only really dealth with GSD who where from breed surveyed stock. Edited March 27, 2012 by alpha bet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 It doesn't matter what is written on the invoice as long as there is one to prove the dog was sold. All hip displasia is genetic. Environment can only worsen it or bring it on earlier. Think about it. What sort of environment rips a dog's hip ball-joint out of its socket? It can only happen if the socket is faulty in the first place. I would expect the breeder to pay for the corrective surgery, at least up to the purchase price of the dog. Or to offer a full refund (without insisting on the dog's return). An ethical breeder would do that, as the dog they sold has a bad fault. In this situation I would go to the small claims court where you have a good chance of having the breeder ordered to pay the full cost of any surgery and aftercare as well. Send the breeder a written ultimatum. Money back in 7 days or see you in small claims court buddy. Don't accept them fobbing you off. You have nothing to lose except $50 and a few hours of your time. I think perhaps you have it a bit wrong greytmate and small claims court wont do any good either .The breeder hasnt fobbed them off .The owner needs to speak with the breeder not base any idea of what has been said via the vet . No breeder can guarantee a dog especially of this breed wont get HD and the dog had no fault at time of sale. HD doesn't only happen if the hip joint is faulty in the first place and many things impact on it including if its a male and its desexed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Vets who often are not knowledgable will diagnose a GSD with Hip Dyslasia when in fact its not at all and usually when the pup/dog has not reached maturity etc. The ONLY WAY to diagnose hip or elbow Dysplasia is by having the dog x rayed by a person that "KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING" :) and then having the x rays read by a radiographer approved by the GSDCA. I would never have surgery done on a dog for "suspected" hip dysplasia......god knows how many perfectly fine dogs this has happened to Please have your brother contact the Shepherd club for more information if he is unsure :) Edited March 28, 2012 by Pockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merci Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Geh. I dont know how to quote. The vet called because he is our uncle and asked my brother if he wanted him to call for him. By alot he was offered a pick from 2-3 litters when he went to pick it up but there was other puppies that were not ready to go. In regards to all the other awesome information that you guys have provided I am sorry I do not know the specifics. Its a small vet practice and don't have any specialities that I am aware of. I have direct my brother to this thread so he can see what he needs to know. We understand that there is no guarantees in life, we understand that things happen and sometimes there is just bad luck. The thing I was most appalled about was the disregard of the breeder. Maybe he should have taken better care when checking the pup's parent's credentials. Thanks for all your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 he was offered a pick from 2-3 litters when he went to pick it up but there was other puppies that were not ready to go. Hmmmm that does sound a lot of puppies .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Maybe he should have taken better care when checking the pup's parent's (and breeders)credentials. My italics. however, he has dog now, and brother, if you are reading - please ask on here for recommendations for a good vet/specialist in your area before you consider any more surgery . Edited March 28, 2012 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Please take the dog to a vet who understands GSD's growth stages and anatomical structure :) if you let us know where you are we can point you in the right direction:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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