Buying A Pup -

[skuzy]

Hi Folks

I havent bought a puppy in a longgggg time but am looking to get one in the next 1-2years.

Ive seen various vids by Ian Dunbar some articles which me slightly confused when looking to buy a pup.

eg Im currently reading an article here http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/happy-birthday-puppy-training-time-another-paradigm-shift-puppy-raising

and it says,

"Basically, far too many people purchase eight-week-old puppies that are not housetrained, not chewtoy-trained, have not been taught to come, sit and lie down on cue and are not sufficiently socialized to people, even though by eight weeks of age, the Critical Period of Socialization is already nearly two thirds over. Furthermore, many new puppy owners are unaware of the extreme urgency of maintaining errorless housetraining and chewtoy-training programs (which also prevent the development excessive barking and separation anxiety), teaching manners and continuing to socialize puppies with people during their first couple of months at home. We are really neglecting early puppy development and missing out on this narrow window of opportunity. Far too many untrained puppies become tomorrow’s shelter dogs."

So my question is:

- Do registered breeders actually do this? i.e. all the training / socialisation mentioned above by 8wks?

[lappiemum]

Socialisation is an ongoing thing - by 8 weeks your puppy should certainly be friendly with people, happy and active. The new owner, however, needs to establish their authority with their puppy - certainly not with harsh or over the top discipline (like rubbing their little noses in accidents) but be firm, fair and consistent and show that you are your puppy's leader.

As for errorless housetraining, um, I'm not sure how many litters ian Dunbar has bred, but my last litter had 8 puppies....don't think I had them 'error less house trained' by 8 weeks..... :laugh:

[SparkyTansy]

Hmmmm.... if there were more than 24 hours in a day, I could probably have done it with each puppy, but as it was I spent most of the last 3 weeks just cleaning up after my puppies before they went to their homes!

I did start crate training at 6 weeks, have people come to the house and do some basic things, but unless it was a small litter, I'm not sure I could manage it all.

[k9angel]

My girl didn't come trained already. I doubt the breeder would of had the time to train several sibe pups + look after and show several adult dogs at the same time. (he has a family with kids and works fulltime also).

I am not even sure if the pups were allowed inside the house? (they had specially made runs) so toilet training was done here too. But they had plenty of human contact with the breeder and his family, and plenty of socialisation with the other dogs there.

The training, including housebreaking and further socialisation is usually your job. :)

[DeltaCharlie]

Our litter went to their new homes at 8 weeks with a pretty reliable sit, drop, come and sit/stay (they would be in a sit stay and fed in turn without anyone moving). They knew their names, had begun housetraining and were used to spending time locked up in a crate alone. We had exposed them to clickers and begun teaching them things like rollover to encourage them to learn how to learn.

Knowing that they would be going to performance homes we had also taught them to engage with toys, particularly tugging as a reward and they had been exposed to uneven surfaces, baby seesaws, as well as chased each other through tunnels and over boards.

They had interacted with the reliable pup-teaching dogs of our pack and our friends, and had seen a variety of people visiting the house.

Yes it was a lot of work on our part but we will never hesitate to do it all again as the new owners were so appreciative of all the work we put in and all the pups have done incredibly well in their new homes. The feedback we received from not only the buyers but others who then interacted with our puppies was very positive and we know we did the right thing by all involved. It meant taking time off work (and I was on my 6 week christmas holidays) but it was worth it :)

[fuzzy82]

I wouldn't expect all that of the breeder, and personally, I would prefer to train my own dog.

I would expect the breeder to have done some socialisation, e.g. meeting new people regularly, been handled by several people, play cd's with various noises. I would also expect the breeder to have started house training, which means the puppies should be able to go off somewhere to pee, preferably grass, and not have to pee where they play and sleep.

A puppy should be happy and confident when you bring it home, and start exploring your house. If it's scared of people and wants to hide when you bring it home, something is very wrong.

[Kavik]

I wouldn't expect all of that either.

I would expect that the pups are confident and outgoing and had some handling and socialisation, and that the pup will want to go to the toilet somewhere away from where it sleeps and plays. Most pups I have found respond well to 'pup pup pup' lol. Introduction to toys and tugs and various surfaces would be awesome but as I will be going to a working breeder who breeds for sheepwork it is unlikely. I prefer training my own dogs so wouldn't expect or want basic obedience trained by 8 weeks.

[Leema]

Hi Skuzy.

I went to Ian Dunbar's seminars in Melbourne recently, and I'm in the process of writing up all my notes on my blog.

If you look around my blog you'll find lots of other bits that may be of interest, but I think this is the part most relevant to your statement:

http://leemakennels.com/blog/puppies/long-term-confinement-area-for-puppies/

Dunbar actually argues for puppies to be trained to use part of a pen for sleeping and part of a pen for toiletting, using turf at one end and beds at the other. This is the beginnings of toilet training.

He also asks for all puppies to be fed exclusively from food toys, in order to maximise the likelihood of learning 'good' behaviours and minimise opportunities for bad habits to form.

Do breeders actually set up pens like this? Yes, I do.

My puppies are raised in a long term confinement area as specified. Most puppies develop a preference for peeing and pooing on turf by the time they go.

I haven't used chew toys extensively, but plan to give it a go next litter.

My puppies are socialised with many people before they leave at 8 weeks. At 4 weeks, they come out with me in my arms to shopping centres etc, and meet many people. They probably see over 100 people, but they are handled by about 50, before they leave at 8 weeks.

On a non-Dunbar note, my puppies are used to sleeping in a crate at night, by themselves, and also for meals during the day. I think this is especially important for any pups that will by flying interstate to their new homes.

There are plenty of breeders that don't do what Dunbar does, but their puppies are no means a disaster. Dunbar described his recommendations as 'making up for any undesirables in the dog's genetic temperament'. To me, most of my dogs are genetically good, but by doing work in socialising, toilet training, and crate training, I can make them better than good.

[skuzy]

this is pretty interesting feedback.. because to be quiet honest.. i was expecting "no" responses from everyone... because raising a litter (im speculating here) can involve any number of pups (2-8??) and i cant imagine the amount of time + effort this would require from breeders to implement! hats off to you folks who do!!

it has helped me re-adjust my expectations when choosing a breeder tho =]

[megan_]

The breeder should be doing a lot of socialisation and getting the pups used to new things IMO. Those breeders are out there - worth finding and waiting for.

[lappiemum]

With 8 puppies its not possible to have 8 crates for crate training and still have room in the house - I did try with one litter having a single crate as a communal sleeping area, but they ate it :laugh: LOL. Having said that, we have one 9 week puppy with us still that is being crate trained at the moment quite successfully. We have designated toilet areas inside and outside, and I am a strong believer of using puppy pens once those little monkeys are up and about! (we have usually 2 or 3 set up, inside and outside). I found that with my last litter they would have set areas where they preferred to toilet and encouraged that; the feedback I have had from the puppy people (most puppies left a week or so ago) is that they are all doing very well with toileting, and that basic commands of sit and stay are working well. All our litters are introduced to chew and inateractive toys, and yes, I prefer to hide their food when they get older in kongs (or even used toilet rolls!) which makes it all the more tastier, apparently. All our puppies were very people focused, and would rush over to anyone who came to visit for pats and cuddles and attention, so we mustn't of done too bad a job in raising the little monkeys LOL

[sheena]

Our litter went to their new homes at 8 weeks with a pretty reliable sit, drop, come and sit/stay (they would be in a sit stay and fed in turn without anyone moving). They knew their names, had begun housetraining and were used to spending time locked up in a crate alone. We had exposed them to clickers and begun teaching them things like rollover to encourage them to learn how to learn.

Knowing that they would be going to performance homes we had also taught them to engage with toys, particularly tugging as a reward and they had been exposed to uneven surfaces, baby seesaws, as well as chased each other through tunnels and over boards.

They had interacted with the reliable pup-teaching dogs of our pack and our friends, and had seen a variety of people visiting the house.

Yes it was a lot of work on our part but we will never hesitate to do it all again as the new owners were so appreciative of all the work we put in and all the pups have done incredibly well in their new homes. The feedback we received from not only the buyers but others who then interacted with our puppies was very positive and we know we did the right thing by all involved. It meant taking time off work (and I was on my 6 week christmas holidays) but it was worth it :)

The breeder I got my BC puppy from did very similar to Delta Charlie, plus she took her pups on long car rides, camping, trials & sensitised them to all sorts of environmental noises. He is a performance pup & I couldn't be happier. Nothing fazes him & he just loves to tug, play & perform. I don't think many breeders would go to the trouble that she did, but I sure appreciate that she did.

[WreckitWhippet]

As I breeder I endeavour to socialise my pups and expose them to as many new noises and situations as I can, within the home and also take them in the car. I've started crate training them and paper training but it's difficult with a litter to do more than that, the actual house training, I leave up to the new owners but I have given the pups a good start, in that they don't piss and crap where they sleep.

I introduce them to toys and my other dogs, so they have met and played with a few adults, other than their mother.

If I know the name of the pup, I use it and start on the basics of coming to a name. I teach them all to stack and stand, handle their mouths and feet on a daily basis. I trim their nails every week and they have all been bathed before they leave and they readily accept medication ( worm tablets )

I'm not sure what else one can do as a breeder, with limited time, you do the best you can and give the pups the best start to life. I've not had any complaints from puppy buyers about the way I raise the pups and all settle in quickly to their new homes.

[alpha bet]

There have been various threads on this :

Many breeders put in a huge amount of effort to give puppies variety of socialising.... but there are many breeders who work full time, travel to shows on weekends, have family commitments who run and breed two or three different breeds and may have 8, 10, perhaps 16 dogs. Perhaps even 5 or 6 litters a year..... sheese these people would never have the time.

I looove raising puppies but then I work full time with dogs so I am lucky, I am home and have set up an environment- it takes two months of commitment to raise pups and for me perhaps 2 litters or perhaps 3 litters in a year would be the most that I feel I could provide the right life. I dont have time to show as my life is spent around breeding, running a training school and boarding kennels.

Pups get socialised with other dogs, loads of people, out to friends, brought into my own puppy classes from 4 weeks of age. They are born in the family room and watch tv with us at night, by the time they are 6 weeks old they get up and walk over to the newspaper (90% of the time) and have a wee, we feed and take them for a walk and they learn to poo in the garden, by the time they leave us they are basically toilet trained at least to our system. I explain this to the puppy buyers and generally they tell me they have pretty good success back home.

They also need to have some changes of environment even at the breeders, sometimes in the front garden, sometimes on the back verandah, going for walks up to the shed, down to the pond. If you leave them in the same puppy run for their time they don't have the same chance to build on their skills.

You don't make money breeding but hopefully you can cover the costs - but you learn so much watching the pups grow and develop.... after raising 14 litters I am still learning...... Everyone has to start somewhere so take the plunge if you have the interest.... try different things don't be afraid to try something if it feels right.... don't be put off by negative comments from people , even your vet (do they breed???) .... instead seek breeders who have bred dogs with the characters you admire.....

currently typing this with 9 pups of 5.5 weeks asleep on the mats.

Edited March 27, 2012 by alpha bet

[dancinbcs]

My puppies alway left being almost housetrained, used to people, car rides, crates, etc. I start lead training at 5 weeks and by 8 weeks they know the meaning of watch, heel, come, stand, sit, drop and and just for fun "shake hands". They have also learnt not to bite people on the legs, feet or hands before they leave me.

So while Ian Dunbar does take things a little to the extreme their are breeders out there that start early training and socialisation. I never raised a litter unless I could save up holidays and be home full time for the last few weeks with them because it is a very time consuming. The benefit is happy puppies that don't come back because they are a nuisance.

If more breeders bothered with these basics there wouldn't constantly be people on here asking for advice on house training, biting hands,car sickness and all the other problems that are repeated over and over in the Puppy thread.

[SwaY]

this is pretty interesting feedback.. because to be quiet honest.. i was expecting "no" responses from everyone... because raising a litter (im speculating here) can involve any number of pups (2-8??) and i cant imagine the amount of time + effort this would require from breeders to implement! hats off to you folks who do!!

Some litters have 10-16 in them !

[Salukifan]

If more breeders bothered with these basics there wouldn't constantly be people on here asking for advice on house training, biting hands,car sickness and all the other problems that are repeated over and over in the Puppy thread.

Many or most of those asking those questions don't have the support of a responsible registered breeder who'd be fielding them from their buyers.

I don't actually WANT a pup that's got a lot of what some breeders are training at 8 weeks. I want a pup I can start as I wish and that is resilient with a sound temperament. I sure as hell don't want one trained in methods I prefer not to use.

Horses for courses I suppose. I say let babies be babies and provided basic socialisation with people and some environmental enrichment has been done, I'll do the rest. :) If people want a 'started' dog, then an older dog will be ideal.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

far too many people purchase eight-week-old puppies that are not housetrained, not chewtoy-trained, have not been taught to come, sit and lie down on cue and are not sufficiently socialized to people, even though by eight weeks of age, the Critical Period of Socialization is already nearly two thirds over

I think this would fairly accurately describe the amount of neglect your average puppy mill puppy gets. Ie no human attention and no training, and if it's taken away from its litter mates early (eg 6 weeks or younger) then not enough puppy to puppy and mother socialisation either.

And then it's up to the new owner to make up the deficit IMMEDIATELY. A lot of people think they can leave puppy training until the puppy is a bit older and has more attention span. Not for these things. That's my interpretation of what Ian Dunbar has written.

Hopefully a more responsible breeder would be spending more human time around the puppies even if they don't get a lot of human individual attention and hopefully they would be staying with their litter mates learning about gentle biting - up to at least 8 weeks old.

[Salukifan]

far too many people purchase eight-week-old puppies that are not housetrained, not chewtoy-trained, have not been taught to come, sit and lie down on cue and are not sufficiently socialized to people, even though by eight weeks of age, the Critical Period of Socialization is already nearly two thirds over

I think this would fairly accurately describe the amount of neglect your average puppy mill puppy gets. Ie no human attention and no training, and if it's taken away from its litter mates early (eg 6 weeks or younger) then not enough puppy to puppy and mother socialisation either.

And then it's up to the new owner to make up the deficit IMMEDIATELY.

Far too many people purchase pups too young.

There are studies around that suggest that the deficit created by lack of socialisation with humans in the period from 3-5 weeks CANNOT be made up. Dogs bred and raised in "commercial" as opposed to "domestic" surroundings may fear strangers for life.

I prefer my pups to be whelped and raised in the breeder's house as that is the type of environment in which they will spend their lives.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Haredown Whippets