Dogs That Stare...but Not At Goats

[Whippetsmum]

If a dog stares at your dog, fixedly, shifts weight forward, often putting strain on the leash, ears up... is it excitement, aggression what? (it's not a herding or sight hound breed if that helps)

There's a dog in class who is doing this every week to mine and it gives him the heebie geebies, and me too.

When I say fixedly, I mean for several minutes at a time while the instructor is explaining things, or we are waiting turns etc. The owner is blissfully unaware, and another student mentioned that she thought that dog was "arking everyone up", ie: it was unsettling more than my dog.

I have previously told (not in this class) not to let my dog stare at another, because, in his case, it means both that he's not paying attention to me, and it's often a precursor to pulling on the lead, trying to catch up to another dog/ it's also what he does when he sees potential prey.

What does the DOL brains trust think?

Thanks

Edited March 31, 2012 by Whippetsmum

[megan_]

It can be fixating for aggressive reasons. I'd turn around and walk away. If this is happening at obedience the instructor should be telling the owner to do the same.

[espinay2]

'eye-stalk' is part of the functional sequence of predatory motor patterns which is something that every dog has.

The sequence is:

orient>eye-stalk>chase>grab-bite>kill-bite>dissect>consume

Different breeds however, have been bred to display more of some and less of another - eg sheep herding breeds may have a strong eye-stalk>chase but not the later parts of the sequence (as you don't want them grabbing the sheep). Other breeds will display them more strongly (in breeds designed to chase and bring down game or to kill their quarry).

So what the dog is displaying is a strong natural eye-stalk tendency.

If I were the instructor I would be encouraging the owner to break the dogs focus on other dogs. As you say, it can unsettle the other dogs and the dog shoud rather be learning to pay attention to the handler and relax in the presence of other dogs.

[Weasels]

'eye-stalk' is part of the functional sequence of predatory motor patterns which is something that every dog has.

The sequence is:

orient>eye-stalk>chase>grab-bite>kill-bite>dissect>consume

Different breeds however, have been bred to display more of some and less of another - eg sheep herding breeds may have a strong eye-stalk>chase but not the later parts of the sequence (as you don't want them grabbing the sheep). Other breeds will display them more strongly (in breeds designed to chase and bring down game or to kill their quarry).

I was going to say this too. My boy dog will fixate strongly on my other dog, but because his prey drive has been modified into a herding instinct I get orient>eye-stalk>chase>make it stop moving>bring it back to handler/hold it in place. In a breed that doesn't have this modification bred in I'd be creeped out too. Not surprised that a still and focused dog is upsetting the other dogs

[mita]

I agree about different breeds behaving differently re the eye-gazing. I actually found the breed I came to like because of how they gazed directly at people.....before I even knew what they were.

I went to the Royal Brisbane looking for a small breed to be a housedog (we'd always had working breeds). So I checked out the Toy breeds.

Many seemed twittery & twitchy to me. Then I came upon a row of small dogs I'd never seen before. They sat calmly & looked me straight in the eye, holding eye contact with soft brown eyes. Wasn't long before I owned one, a tibbie. Since then, I've heard other people say they've been drawn in by that same calm, eye contact.

I once heard a radio program about dogs' eyes & sight. It said that such little dogs have flatter faces when seen face on & they have largish eyes because they gaze to make contact as a people-focused breed. Totally different meaning from when the working dogs fixed their gaze. .

Edited March 25, 2012 by mita

[Greytmate]

If a dog stares at your dog, fixedly, shifts weight forward, often putting strain on the leash, ears up... is it excitement, aggression what? (it's not a herding or sight hound breed if that helps)

To get a better idea of this dog's mood and intent I would also observe head position and a few other smaller details. Whatever it is, it doesn't sound good. Let the instructor know it is giving you and your dog the heebie jeebies.

[Whippetsmum]

It's good to know I'm not completely paranoid. The instructor insisted it's not "aggressive" behaviour, and my dog was just being "reactive" when I did try and take it up with her. Your replies strengthen my resolve to take it up more firmly next week. I know my dog is a a bit sensitive, and can be anxious around some dogs, but we were making real progress until we met this dog in class. This breed is one that was bred for taking down medium to large prey, and more recently a breed that was used in protection. (I just googled it a few minutes ago). That breeding coupled with my dog being nervous is making me feel like this is a potentially dangerous situation- my boy's "acting" like prey, and this other dog is acting like a "predator"! I may have to change clubs if something isn't worked out soon, and will ask the instructor to talk to the group about keeping dogs focus on their handlers.

[megan_]

Just before a dobe went for my boy when he was a pup it did exactly thus - it was prey drive. Some might say that isn't aggression, but the dobe certainly didn't have good intentions!

[Weasels]

I once heard a radio program about dogs' eyes & sight. It said that such little dogs have flatter faces when seen face on & they have largish eyes because they gaze to make contact as a people-focused breed. Totally different meaning from when the working dogs fixed their gaze. .

Companion dogs also have much better eyesight than other dogs for stuff that's up close, so they can read people's expressions better :) Very cool IMHO. I agree a working dog's gaze is meant to intimidate, a companion dog's gaze is meant to engage.

Whippetsmum doesn't your instructor teach people not to stare dogs in the eye because it's confrontational? Same thing goes here, at the very least it's 'rude' in dog communication to stare so that's reason enough to interrupt & discourage it. If he stares at the wrong dog it's going to end in a fight

[Greytmate]

Companion dogs also have much better eyesight than other dogs for stuff that's up close, so they can read people's expressions better :) Very cool IMHO. I agree a working dog's gaze is meant to intimidate, a companion dog's gaze is meant to engage.

Whippetsmum doesn't your instructor teach people not to stare dogs in the eye because it's confrontational? Same thing goes here, at the very least it's 'rude' in dog communication to stare so that's reason enough to interrupt & discourage it. If he stares at the wrong dog it's going to end in a fight

It is confrontational, and it's rude and it is highly likely to end in a fight. Any instructor that can't see that shouldn't really be instructing. Feel free to thank the instructor for their time, and leave the class.

It might not be prey-drive or anything that tends to be breed specific. This dog might just be wanting to dominate. It is normal for a dog to be reactive to that. I would have the heebie jeebies too if somebody in class was giving me death stares and the slit throat gesture. That is what seems to be happening here.

[Whippetsmum]

Unfortunatley, very little has been said about any of the dogs behaviour, or the responsibilities of handlers, apart from saying my dog was "reactive" which translates in this situation as aware of surrroundings...... .

When I approached this club, I was very upfront. My boy is anxious and can be snappy if cornered, I am working on this and have made huge inroads until joining this class. They made all the right noises/said the correct things about how they don't tolerate dogs approaching others in class, would be aware of his needs etc, it's not time to socialise in class, they'd would make sure people kept their dogs to themselves not just for my dog. Very little has transpired, they accepted my walking and pacing away from confronational dogs (week 1 was a nightmare, aggressive little fluff ball trying to bite at us), but said nothing to the handeler whose dog was misbehaving.

I have been told off because I corrected my boy, insulted because they don't like the collar, but still my boy is probably one of the best focussed in class, despite all the carry on.

Nothing was said when this staring dog plus another had an altercation last week, the barking was not play, the lunging and snappping were real, and the tebsion that followed palpable. More was made of my correcting my boy when he was approached from behind by one of the altercating dogs and he responded in a defensive manner, apparantly, telling a dog 'No' is not allowed.

I will speak to the instructor asap, unfortunately, it's not made clear who will take the class until the last minute.

[Greytmate]

Unfortunatley, very little has been said about any of the dogs behaviour, or the responsibilities of handlers, apart from saying my dog was "reactive" which translates in this situation as aware of surrroundings...... .

When I approached this club, I was very upfront. My boy is anxious and can be snappy if cornered, I am working on this and have made huge inroads until joining this class. They made all the right noises/said the correct things about how they don't tolerate dogs approaching others in class, would be aware of his needs etc, it's not time to socialise in class, they'd would make sure people kept their dogs to themselves not just for my dog. Very little has transpired, they accepted my walking and pacing away from confronational dogs (week 1 was a nightmare, aggressive little fluff ball trying to bite at us), but said nothing to the handeler whose dog was misbehaving.

I have been told off because I corrected my boy, insulted because they don't like the collar, but still my boy is probably one of the best focussed in class, despite all the carry on.

Nothing was said when this staring dog plus another had an altercation last week, the barking was not play, the lunging and snappping were real, and the tebsion that followed palpable. More was made of my correcting my boy when he was approached from behind by one of the altercating dogs and he responded in a defensive manner, apparantly, telling a dog 'No' is not allowed.

I will speak to the instructor asap, unfortunately, it's not made clear who will take the class until the last minute.

You corrected the wrong dog.

Unfortunately it isn't acceptable to go around correcting other people's dogs. You rely on instructors in classes to let people know that their dog is behaving unacceptably towards other dogs and to offer them methods to avoid problems before any correction is needed.

Perhaps you should write to the committee with your concerns.

[Christina]

I have no idea but based on the instructors manner & the other dogs being trouble I would go to another place. They are not going to take your concerns seriously at all.

[indigirl]

Goats??? H

[mumof4girls]

I am intrigued as to why people who have rude dogs don't make any attempt to take control, not only at obediance where you would think they would be in that mode..

I was at the vets yesterday with rogue and we walked in, this guy was sitting with his little dog and bang aggression through the roof came out of this little dog.. Rogue who is 19 wks was scared, tail between his legs and the guy just sat there.. I looked at him quite sternly ( lol I almost said control your bloody dog ! ) Like stand up walk the dog away, take the dog outside do something!! Ugh vent over I just get annoyed at people that do absolutely nothing.. ie the vet asked me to sit round the corner out of site of his dog which I was going to doanyway just because of the noise of this dog let alone his behaviour .

I hope your next session is not so uncomfortable for you and your dog :-) .

Unfortunatley, very little has been said about any of the dogs behaviour, or the responsibilities of handlers, apart from saying my dog was "reactive" which translates in this situation as aware of surrroundings...... .

When I approached this club, I was very upfront. My boy is anxious and can be snappy if cornered, I am working on this and have made huge inroads until joining this class. They made all the right noises/said the correct things about how they don't tolerate dogs approaching others in class, would be aware of his needs etc, it's not time to socialise in class, they'd would make sure people kept their dogs to themselves not just for my dog. Very little has transpired, they accepted my walking and pacing away from confronational dogs (week 1 was a nightmare, aggressive little fluff ball trying to bite at us), but said nothing to the handeler whose dog was misbehaving.

I have been told off because I corrected my boy, insulted because they don't like the collar, but still my boy is probably one of the best focussed in class, despite all the carry on.

Nothing was said when this staring dog plus another had an altercation last week, the barking was not play, the lunging and snappping were real, and the tebsion that followed palpable. More was made of my correcting my boy when he was approached from behind by one of the altercating dogs and he responded in a defensive manner, apparantly, telling a dog 'No' is not allowed.

I will speak to the instructor asap, unfortunately, it's not made clear who will take the class until the last minute.

[Whippetsmum]

Unfortunatley, very little has been said about any of the dogs behaviour, or the responsibilities of handlers, apart from saying my dog was "reactive" which translates in this situation as aware of surrroundings...... .

When I approached this club, I was very upfront. My boy is anxious and can be snappy if cornered, I am working on this and have made huge inroads until joining this class. They made all the right noises/said the correct things about how they don't tolerate dogs approaching others in class, would be aware of his needs etc, it's not time to socialise in class, they'd would make sure people kept their dogs to themselves not just for my dog. Very little has transpired, they accepted my walking and pacing away from confronational dogs (week 1 was a nightmare, aggressive little fluff ball trying to bite at us), but said nothing to the handeler whose dog was misbehaving.

I have been told off because I corrected my boy, insulted because they don't like the collar, but still my boy is probably one of the best focussed in class, despite all the carry on.

Nothing was said when this staring dog plus another had an altercation last week, the barking was not play, the lunging and snappping were real, and the tebsion that followed palpable. More was made of my correcting my boy when he was approached from behind by one of the altercating dogs and he responded in a defensive manner, apparantly, telling a dog 'No' is not allowed.

I will speak to the instructor asap, unfortunately, it's not made clear who will take the class until the last minute.

You corrected the wrong dog.

Unfortunately it isn't acceptable to go around correcting other people's dogs. You rely on instructors in classes to let people know that their dog is behaving unacceptably towards other dogs and to offer them methods to avoid problems before any correction is needed.

Perhaps you should write to the committee with your concerns.

I corrected my dog out of instinct, trying to protect him from his reaction, i.e. grabbed him back and told him No. I.e. No don't have a go, stay with me. I would have liked to correct the other dog, or more accurately, it's handler, that dog's handler did comment at end of class that my boy doesn't seem to like her dog.....as has been said, we do rely on the instructors to let people know when dogs behave unacceptably.

[Whippetsmum]

Goats??? H

There's a movie "Men who stare at Goats" 2009, Ewan McGregor and George Clooney.

[SammieS]

It's good to know I'm not completely paranoid. The instructor insisted it's not "aggressive" behaviour, and my dog was just being "reactive" when I did try and take it up with her. Your replies strengthen my resolve to take it up more firmly next week. I know my dog is a a bit sensitive, and can be anxious around some dogs, but we were making real progress until we met this dog in class. This breed is one that was bred for taking down medium to large prey, and more recently a breed that was used in protection. (I just googled it a few minutes ago). That breeding coupled with my dog being nervous is making me feel like this is a potentially dangerous situation- my boy's "acting" like prey, and this other dog is acting like a "predator"! I may have to change clubs if something isn't worked out soon, and will ask the instructor to talk to the group about keeping dogs focus on their handlers.

You are correct in thinking this is not 'friendly' body language! We have a dog in our training class that sat staring at my dog for about 5 minutes and then Asti growled to which I got up and walked out of class quickly to refocus her on me and then we came back into class and resumed being calm. Anyway, turns out the other dog is reknown for 'staring' and egging other dogs on and it also made two other dogs bark and lunge at it during class too! All the while the owners are oblivious to the confrontational stares their dog is doing because they are too focussed on listening to the Trainer!

Most people miss the stare and then when your dog reacts people look at you and your dog and think "geez, what was wrong with it" - I'm glad that I go class with awesome trainers and they already knew that we were doing the right thing and were helping the other couple identify the body language their dog is giving to other dogs.

[rusty&biscuit]

The behaviour displayed by the other dog certainly doesn't sound good. And the trainers reaction, punishing you and not resolving the issue, to me, is pretty unacceptable. I would definately find another club, however we are spoilt for choice here, so I understand it may not be so easy to find somewhere else where you are. Whatever your choice, good luck, and hopefully the issue is resolved soon

[Katdogs]

This sort of behaviour (the instructors and owners, more than the other dogs) is the reason we don't go to obedience club any more. Stevie was the most stable dog around and we were always paired with the most dodgy dogs, and I got sick of her being asked to put up with bad behaviour because they knew she wouldn't react. Stevie first thought it was a big game, but after a few months she was virtually pleading with me not to let them go nuts around her any more! Then one day the instructor totally ignored my warning about the behaviour of a new dog to the class, didn't watch it, and lo and behold the new dog tried to rip apart a regular small dog - so I just don't want to take the chance again with this particular group of volunteer instructors.