Hip & Elbow Testing

[chook007]

I was talking with a friend about hip & elbow testing & she was saying it has made no difference to the hip & elbow scores we are getting today & it is a wast of time/money doing this testing in large breeds.

I thought by doing these test on all large breds before breeding we are slowly making headway & my friend is incorrect on this point.

Can anyone help me with some info on this.

thanks

[Mason_Gibbs]

We are making headway with hip/elbow scores but you can still get pups from parents with 0/0 scores who have hip or elbow dysplasia, i have sadly learnt this first hand. Sonetimes nature surprises us all

[espinay2]

The important thing is how you USE the information.

Knowing just the parents scores is just the tip of the iceberg too. You need to know siblings as well as other dogs in the direct pedigree.

And knowing that being polygenetic, just doing the scoring is not the only thing that needs to be taken into account.

Looked at a different way, hip scoring can also potentially help avoid increasing scores (by identifying higher scoring dogs you dont necessarily want to use), even if they dont necessarily reduce them significantly

It is also a matter of lowering 'averages' too - not every dog is going to have a good hip score despite careful selection, but overall the scores may reduce when looked at statistically as a group.

Just out of curiosity - was the argument put forward by someone who actually hip and elbow scores? This is often an agrument I hear from people who don't

(so have no idea what the scores of their own dogs are anyway)

Edited March 24, 2012 by espinay2

[newfsie]

Sadly I picked my puppy from really good scoring parents and i checked quite a few sibling too...But my dog has scored rather badly, my youngest bitch that is. I bought her as a puppy. She has just had her hips done whilst she was under for a TPLO.

Mind you the vet at the Specialist Ortho Centre said many people would still breed from a newfie with her hips, she will not require treatment and is sound, we won't...She will be desexed when she has her check-up x-rays for her TPLO at six weeks.

And my rescue newf and my re-home boy have both scored incredibly well :).......All come from the same lines/kennel.

I will still always buy from scored parents and will still go for those that have scored low/well. I think I was just unlucky with my Katy.....One out of three dogs scoring badly is not too bad in the giant world.

I agree it will be those people not doing it, who say it is a waste of time.

[espinay2]

Yes, unfortunately it can still happen despite the breeder doing everything right.

Newfsie, how old was your pup and what method was it scored by? I am presuming it was older (one or two years of age?) but just curious, as we are seeing a worrying trend at the moment with some vets recommending surgery when the pups are around 16 weeks old and they are not doing proper scores for the x-rays (not even pennHIP which is the only method that is reliable at this age). Some of the pups being done never needed the operation .

[Miranda]

Hips have vastly improved in my breed since breeders began xraying. When I started in the breed in 1974, bad hips were common and some dogs were severely affected, however today the vast majority of dogs screened have normal hips and the breed average is 12. Elbows have never been a problem in my breed and most dogs score 0/0. To the best of my knowledge all breeders in Australia score hips and elbows prior to breeding and neither of the two breed clubs will advertise a litter via their website or newsletter or even give a verbal endorsement unless both parents have been fully health tested.

When I was in the U.S. I attended a seminar given by the president of OFFA and she advised that they had conducted a long term study on Golden Retrievers and saw definite improvements when breeding only from dogs with excellent or good hips.

In my experience hip and elbow scoring all breeding stock is definitely improving the health of our dogs.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Miranda

[OzzieLioness]

I agree - it would seem that people who SAY hip and elbow scores are not important and “just a number” are the ones who avoid doing it - whether for financial reasons or other more sinister ones (or a combination).

A dog I had, that I purchased from what I thought was a reputable person had NO HIP joints at all; "the worst case my vet had ever seen". He had elbow problems, his teeth were all crooked,and he had continual eye issues from severe ectropia in both eyes.

By the time he was old enough and fully grown, for surgery to help repair his eyelids to make him more comfortable, the hip issues showed up, then the elbows fast followed - and there is no way that ALL those problems were not inherited. Yep, I do agree that nature occasionally throws a curve ball -but not several at the same time, in the same place!

I contacted the breeder of my dog and she emailed me ... this is what she said regarding hip and elbow scores (keep in mind this way my first foray into a large, heavy dog breed too, so it sounded okay to me)...

They do not usually x-ray in the States or Canada so I have no history of family background on the sires side. The dam I bred and she is fifth generation and all have had very good hips and elbows. She has good hips but I would need to get a better x-ray to get her scored and I am not prepared to put her under for that. The Vet that took them went over the x-rays with me and said that her hips were very good. Hipscores are only a number and mean nothing. (His sire was an imported dog)

I had called her on the phone first, prior to email, to tell her about my dogs problems and in discussion, she did ask me if my dog was desexed or still an entire male (he was still an entire male). In her email, she also said this...

As far as your dog is concerned, I will take him back, have my vet x-ray him and if he is as bad as you have stated I will put him down.

Interestingly, she refused to put HER dog through x-rays to get better ones for hip scoring, but was happy to put MINE through it AGAIN - and his xrays were VERY CLEAR.... as if another vet would get a different result!

I have to agree - it would seem that people who SAY hip and elbow scores are not important and “just a number” are the ones who avoid doing it - whether for financial reasons or other more sinister ones (or a combination).

NONE of this was apparent when my dog was a puppy. Hip and elbow scores are very important – BUT, I also think that it needs to be viewed together with any and all information on the lineage of the dog you are looking at.

I know I learned a very painful lesson, but I know a lot more now.

[newfsie]

Yes, unfortunately it can still happen despite the breeder doing everything right.

Newfsie, how old was your pup and what method was it scored by? I am presuming it was older (one or two years of age?) but just curious, as we are seeing a worrying trend at the moment with some vets recommending surgery when the pups are around 16 weeks old and they are not doing proper scores for the x-rays (not even pennHIP which is the only method that is reliable at this age). Some of the pups being done never needed the operation .

Katy seemed sound her whole 2.5 years..She is also very fit and whilst doing her gorilla walk and twisting to chase another of our dogs, she did her cruciate ligament....That is why i decided to get her hips checked whilst under. Not a penn, because this was going to be just a see what it is like. Well they are not terrible and most likely will be fine for her lifetime, but I will not breed from her. hence the desexing. We had planned to breed, with her Breeders support. We have a very sound and fully health-checked male, but now he will only be used by the Breeder. There is a bit of a yes/no about cruciate's anyway..Are they or are they not genetic, so we are playing it safe. there are plenty of good scoring newfies around.

Maybe one day I will get another Bitch..Now I just want to get katy as fit as possible and back to water rescue training, which she is ace at. She needs soun knees to beach the boat and pull the people ashore. the hips should stay OK if we build up the muscles like they were pre-surgery.....She is walking so well post-op. Just keeping her contained and on lead is driving her nuts :)

There is no way I would recommend hip surgery before 12 months..bones need to develop. I work in a Radiology department and it is amazing the changes you can see from child to adult..Same for dogs.

Hip dysplasia up to certain levels can be dealt with if we get the dogs fit and allow the muscles and tendons to develop...throw them into swimming and lots of it. that is why Katy only shows on x-ray

Just like with humans some people are just out there to cut open and get paid lots of $$$'s and play with peoples emotions, because they love their dogs. I was lucky, the Ortho vet told me not to worry about it, keep her on glucosamine/chondroiton, Omega's, swimming and fit........

PS and lean, my newfies are very Lean........Some in the show ring say too lean :)

Edited March 25, 2012 by newfsie

[espinay2]

Good on you Newfsie. I understand the hard decision, having had to make it myself in the past. I have had a bitch with HD (severe in her case) and she lived very happily till 10 with good mobility (died from unrelated cause). As you say, management can help a lot. Lean is good :) and I like to keep my dogs lean too. Some will say they are too lean, but they can't argue that they are not fit and healthy!! :laugh:

[Mason_Gibbs]

Know how u feeling my 8 month old had surgery 10 days ago for ED - also trying to keep him quiet its a mission! He had to have surgery due to his ulna growing too long for the radius

[chook007]

Know how u feeling my 8 month old had surgery 10 days ago for ED - also trying to keep him quiet its a mission! He had to have surgery due to his ulna growing too long for the radius

Sorry to hear about your girl Newfie, you must be disapointed.

I also have newfies & am learning lots about the health issues of our bred. We have talked a lot about the value of hip & elbow scoring + other health testing. I,m very lucky to be working with a lovely group of newfie owners & I have just started showing one of my girls.

It was another friend I talked with about hip scoreing, she is a breeder of a different large breed she does hip score her dogs but only becaues she has to. She does,nt mind breeding with a dog with high scores.She says if she mates a dog with a high score to a dog with a low score the puppies with all have good hips ?? This is not my way of thinking.

[Mystiqview]

Personally I think on the whole it has improved. Even in breeds where it is not compulsory to hip score, it is becoming the norm and breeders are doing it through peer pressure. It is disappointing that some registered breeders still refuse to hip score.

However, you have to consider I also think the breed averages are skewed. When we breed a litter of puppies say of around 8 in a litter. The breeder keeps only one or two and may sell one or two to a show home. Depending on what the end result is of these puppies, of this litter of 8, only one to three may then be hip scored, leaving 5 puppies unscored.

Multiply this by all the litters that are produced within a breed, then there is a good percentage that are really unscored and are not contributing to the breed average.

When the AVA calculates the breed average, if these unscored dogs are not taken into consideration, and they are taking their average from only the scored and submitted (also don't forget that some scorers were not contributing to the overall breed average for awhile), then of course the breed average will be skewed to what it is realistic out there.

recently when redesigning a webpage for the club, I came across this link which I believe is good in explaining the scoring system. LINK

[espinay2]

Also skewed when there is only a small number of breeders hip scoring. If these breeders are working hard to improve and get good scores, but the majority are not even hip scoring, it does not present an average of the population, just an average of the dogs actually scored (which is actually as you say all it is anyway). What annoys me is when breeders who don't score then use this as evidence that the breed gets low scores and therefore they don't need to hip score .

Edited March 27, 2012 by espinay2