Ever Thought About This

[toshman]

In those situations I think it's too late to comment on the breed suitability. They've got the dog, even tho' it might have been a stupendously bad idea, so now they have to learn to deal with it enough to get by or the dog will wind up at a shelter or a vet. Having an independent breed myself, if I thought I might have something worth trying I'd mention it, but otherwise it's her drama, not mine.

But what you think is her drama just might not be a drama for her :) We all deal with differing behaviours differently...I love my dogs jumping up on the sofa, the bed, my chair, me - others think I'm mad to let them. I do draw the line at the kitchen benches though :laugh: But it works for me - maybe she's quite happy with what her dog's doing and they'll both live a long and contented life together putting up with each others foibles - no big deal, really

[Jade~Harley~Bella]

Anyway I dunno where some people got the idea I was

being rude, and judgement about the lady I was just wondering why some people choose dogs that really are not best suted to them.

And also who thought it would be a good idea to sell that type of dog to the lady who is a very shy and timid person and without informing them about perticular aspects of the breed. And what training would be required.

Is it looks that people mostly go on to choose their dog?

Or is there just too much miss information out there?

Or maybe both :)

People can just be uneducated about choosing breeds and pick the cutest puppy they see, or their friend owns. I am the first to admit that I didn't look at breed characteristics before I selected my current chosen breed (amstaffies) and if I did research properly I can bet I would have chosen something smaller and not so hypo, not that I would change it now though :)

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[Danois]

You perceive her as shy and timid but it might only be in that setting. Being shy does not stop you from being able to a good pack leader - there is a lot more to it than that!

How do you know what goes on at home?

I'd probably be judged by you too - I'm in 3rd class at obedience (when I go) but in class my dog has the attention span of a goldfish and forgets he knows anything. Away from class when we train, I have a dog who works offlead and easily completes the exercises.

[Tralee]

Anyway I dunno where some people got the idea I was being rude, and judgement about the lady I was just wondering why some people choose dogs that really are not best suted to them.

And also who thought it would be a good idea to sell that type of dog to the lady who is a very shy and timid person and without informing them about perticular aspects of the breed. And what training would be required.

Is it looks that people mostly go on to choose their dog?

Or is there just too much miss information out there?

Or maybe both :)

Well, I am sympathetic to what you are saying although I don't think you have a say in it.

The idea that you can train a dog totally cancels out the argument that some breeds are not suited to some people.

I don't think lions or elephants are suited to the circus but there you are.

What you do have a say in is what dogs you source for yourself and where you might send your own dogs.

On the balance of argument, I would never have embraced the Maremma Sheepdog as my breed of choice if I had accepted the 'condemnation' of the breed or the accusations of 'ignorance' from others.

Saying that of course, I would not give a child a 55kg dog to walk.

But that is a different thing entirely.

Which means to say, what a person does with their dog can be curtailed.

Regards.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Tralee

[huski]

Laughing is better than crying. I've seen plenty of that over the years.

I've seen it and done it myself!

You don't need to be a hard ass to train dogs, but if the instructor was any good they would show the owner how to get the best out of her dog which in my experience goes a long way to helping the owner feel more confident.

I find more people struggle in my classes to reward their dogs than correct them, it's always fun making the big tough guys 'have a party' with their dog :laugh:

[stormie]

I totally understand what you are saying and I was discussing this with a friend just the other night.

I think what Greytmate said was spot on - that a lot of people seem to perceive the difference between dog breeds as simply appearance.

I see it commonly at work - first time dog owner who have chosen something like a Vizsla or a Huski but unfortunately have no idea about their temperament or exercise requirements and think the dog will just 'learn' how to be calm and trained as it grows up.

In this situation, the owner of the Mal has to be commended for going to training in the first place. And she did say she did her research so at least she probably knew what she was getting herself into :)

[huski]

The other thing I want to add is that if you do your research on breeds like huskies and mals many owners and breeders tell you they aren't trainable.

I have lost count how many husky owners tell me that they don't bother training their dog because it's a husky and can never be taught to walk on a loose leash (bred to pull) and will never recall because huskies are 'notorious for having bad recalls and you should never let one off leash'. Maybe this owner has been told similar things about about mals and is at training because she thinks it's the right thing to do but doesn't actually believe her dog is trainable.

[Esky the husky]

Some days my husky is a perfect angel listening to all my requests.

There are other days, where she's tired, bored or just being a husky that she doesn't.

Her Mal could have been having the same issue that day.

[espinay2]

Gosh I remember taking my first Pyrenean to training classes. What a learning curve! I think anyone watching us would have wondered 'why' too. I know I did a few times :laugh: (and yes, done the frustrated tears thing). Reading about what a breed is like and understanding that in real life can be two different things. Sounds like this lady is working hard to try and work with that though, and sometimes with independent breeds laughing and going with the flow can really be the best approach at times. Sometimes 'pushing' too much is counterproductive.

Though yes, I have seen some pairings in the classes I teach where I do think it may not have been the best choice. At least they are there though and I try to help them as best I can. Not always easy in a large class, as you can't give all your attention to them for all of the time. Not everyone is coordinated, or has a good sense of timing, or can easily use their voice in more than a monotone not matter how often you help or remind them. Some people have old habits they find hard to break. And yes, trying to get some to 'let their hair down' and have fun can be a challenge :laugh: Some do get better with practice. I have recommended one on one classes to some in the past.

Edited March 25, 2012 by espinay2

[Simply Grand]

The thing that worries me about people with large breed dogs who don't seem to respond to the owners commands is that due to the size of the dog the owner can't physically control them so if they can't verbally control them either what happens if there's a problem? I've seen it at work with a couple of the giant breed dog's that I wash, like you said atanquin the owners will "ask" the dog to do something, like "come on baby please get in the bath" etc etc, dog ignores them and does what it feels like. Sometimes they can be lured in with food, one of the dogs, no chance so he gets washed outside the trailer as that's as close as he will go.

It's not a big deal for me washing them, or I suppose at home for the owners if the dog's behaviour doesn't bother them, but what if they're out somewhere and the dog decides to run off, or jump on a child, or retaliate against an annoying other dog, or chase another animal, or whatever the case may be.

I just feel like if you have a dog you couldn't physically control if you had to you have an even greater responsibility to your dog and everyone else to figure out how to train it effectively (not aiming this at the woman in atanquin's class or anyone else in particular, just my general thoughts).

[Danois]

Ah Saxonpup - your first paragraph can apply equally to big and small dogs.

In my experience the majority of giant dog owners especially have their dogs very well under control and trained because they know the importance of control due to size and strength. It is actually the owners of the SWF brigade who, in my experience, are not usually under much control at all and also tend to all into the spoilt little brats category. I don't know what the answer is - maybe it is due to the type of owner wo go for big vs small and the less likely a dog will get mollycoddled.

[koalathebear]

People can sometimes grow into their dogs. When I was younger, my ideal dog was a lab, a Kelpie would never have crossed my mind but OH wanted a Kelpie and they've been the perfect dog for us even though we live in the suburbs and we aren't active people. Maybe some people have picked the perfect breed for them the first time around, but I suspect there must be plenty who learn how to deal as they go along. Also, even within the breed there is such a variance. Some Kelpies are laid back, chilled out couch potatoes and some are revved up loonies.

I think the woman should be applauded for coming to class and seeking training for her dog. By the time someone's rocked up to class with a dog, I think the attitude should be about trying to help that person manage the dog they've got. Obedience classes can be tough enough already without other people looking at you and thinking: "you've got the wrong dog"/"you've made a mistake with your choice of dog". We have met quite a few people at dog parks who have dropped out of obedience class for a variety of reasons and I think it's a shame. Sometimes it's for relevance reasons - a lot of what people learn in obedience isn't seen to be particularly useful/relevant for what they want out of dog ownership, but many times, if you're the owner of a 'problem' dog and you're exactly the sort of person who SHOULD be going to training, your teacher and classmates can make you feel bad about attending with a less than perfect dog. This makes it easier/less stressful for people to just stop going to class than to persist.

[Greytmate]

Obedience classes can be tough enough already without other people looking at you and thinking: "you've got the wrong dog"/"you've made a mistake with your choice of dog". We have met quite a few people at dog parks who have dropped out of obedience class for a variety of reasons and I think it's a shame. Sometimes it's for relevance reasons - a lot of what people learn in obedience isn't seen to be particularly useful/relevant for what they want out of dog ownership, but many times, if you're the owner of a 'problem' dog and you're exactly the sort of person who SHOULD be going to training, your teacher and classmates can make you feel bad about attending with a less than perfect dog. This makes it easier/less stressful for people to just stop going to class than to persist.

Or , on learning that their dog isn't expected to behave like a border collie, labrador or poodle, it might make them understand that their dog's apparent failure, slowness or reluctance to learn is because of the breed/handler combination, and shouldn't be taken as a personal failing in their ability to train.

I think that is the point of this thread. An observation of when a breed/handler match seems to be causing problems.

People dropping out of community obedience schools happens mostly because their expectations are not met. Adjusting their expectations is one solution, and that might include discussing how a dog's bred traits might make obedience easier for some breeds than others. It isn't about being wrong, it's about some handlers having to try different things to get the best out of their breed. Something very hard to do in a class situation and it is unfortunate to see people struggling like the lady in Atanquin's class.

[Atanquin]

I think greytmate has said words of wisdom again :) maybe why the instructors haven't helped much with this lady is they them selfs haven't has much experience with this sort of breed, one breeds westies 3 breed BC and one breeds toy and standard poodles.

I haven't noticed any negativity in my obedience club towards others we are quite a freindly bunch, I haven't seen anyone getting annoyed at the lady to make her upset or anything I went to talk to her to be freindly :) she was shy but a lovely lady.

I think some people have left beause they have been there a year and have made real progress with there dog and don't want to drive in there every Monday night.

The problem in our club at the moment is the size of of the class like mine we had to be split into 2 groups and we still a big class so some people who need help are getting ignored.

[Simply Grand]

Danios I know what you're saying and I agree and have seen the same as you. Ideally all dogs would be trained by their owners from day one to be responsive and controllable with voice commands/signals.

However it's a simple fact that if 1 owner has a 5 - 10kg dog and another has a 70 - 80kg dog, both on leash and both decide to bolt at a kid or a road and ignore the owners' calls, owner 1 can physically hold onto their dog and owner 2 probably can't. That was my point, not that one group or the other tends to be better trained in general.

[mumof4girls]

We are starting at Obediance soon at present we have a trainer that comes to us.. I imagine I will be that person that has no clue lol Rogue is quick to learn and gets bored quickly , it's like OK I got that move on lol so becomes restless and will more than likely be hard to control/entertain/ sit patiently lol while we wait while others are going over what they need to learn.. ( we had this in puppy class) It will be interesting to see how we go, I do hope people don't think I am a bad trainer or out of me depth because of this :-(

I am there to learn just as my dog and I want a well trained dog so when we go on and do agility my dog is responsive and I feel very confident in my ability to train him, maybe it's more for me than him in a way, confident strong owner =receptive eager to please learn dog .. Maybe this lady has the same thing with her dog maybe he gets bored with it easily?? I hope she doesn't pull out because of this :-)

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

A naughty dog is just an opportunity and challenge to become a better dog trainer.

I got a breed I've known almost all my life and always found easy to train. Not this one. So I've had to learn a lot about dog training, being very consistent, and re-inforcement and what happens when you let a dog help themselves to undesirable re-inforcement like the take away chicken debris at the local park.

Atanquin

Find out what her dog loves and suggest she use it when he's really good and never give it "for free". I'd start with dried fish...

I've met some gawd awful badly behaved malamute and huski - but I've also met some lovely ones. Same goes for Labradors etc.

I think it's just that Malamute have slightly different motivations than other breeds and you just need to work with what they've got.

Like a having a co-worker who doesn't need the money - you've got to find out what they do love...

[Boronia]

Laughing is better than crying. I've seen plenty of that over the years.

I've seen it and done it myself!

You don't need to be a hard ass to train dogs, but if the instructor was any good they would show the owner how to get the best out of her dog which in my experience goes a long way to helping the owner feel more confident.

I find more people struggle in my classes to reward their dogs than correct them, it's always fun making the big tough guys 'have a party' with their dog :laugh:

A little OT but in what suburb do you have your obedience classes?

[Red Fox]

There is a new lady in our class at obedience, and I can't help but keep on thinking WHY???? She has so much trouble training her malamute, he is typically stubborn and just dosen't listen to her but she just just laughs about it :s

Say we are all simply doing the sit commarnd her dog will just lye down and not listen but she just stands their pleading with the dog to do it, instead of telling it and maybe trying different things and using a powerful voice.

I asked her the other day about why she chose that breed and she said she liked them, that was all. And apprently she did alot of reading about them before she got a pup.

But she is just obviously just not a strong enough person to coupe with a breed like that.

Sigh oh well...... Rant over

Is this her first dog? My guess is that the woman is following along blindly in class and not really understanding the method behind the training. She probably laughs out of embarrassment and cries on the way home. Been there, done that...

If obedience schools do not take the time to teach owners then how can they expect to teach dogs? If no time is spent building strong foundations then how can anyone expect the poor dog to learn more complicated behaviours? IMO the majority of obedience schools skip the focus work (perhaps they assume owners will teach this at home??) and jump straight into dragging the dog around in a circle and telling them to sit/stand/drop/stay. The dog hasn't been taught how to work under no-low distraction let alone in a class!! Then the poor owners, many of whom have never trained a dog before, have no idea and wonder why their dog isn't 'getting it'. Hmmmm......

If I saw that woman on the street I'd tell her to pull her dog out now and find a decent trainer who will teach HER how to train her dog. But's that's just me :p.

I was in her shoes 4 years ago and I'm glad I was. Not nice at the time but spurred me on to much greater things. Don't think I'd have anywhere near the amount of knowledge I have today had I bought the 'right' breed.

[huski]

Laughing is better than crying. I've seen plenty of that over the years.

I've seen it and done it myself!

You don't need to be a hard ass to train dogs, but if the instructor was any good they would show the owner how to get the best out of her dog which in my experience goes a long way to helping the owner feel more confident.

I find more people struggle in my classes to reward their dogs than correct them, it's always fun making the big tough guys 'have a party' with their dog :laugh:

A little OT but in what suburb do you have your obedience classes?

Hey Boronia

I have PMd you :)

Bec