Boxer Breeders Euthanising White Puppies

[espinay2]

Ultimately the decision lies with the breeder the same as the decision to euthanise oops crossbreds or some of a very large litter in breeds that are hard to sell. These are some of the tough decisions breeders have to make depending on how likely the puppies are to get good homes, not just any homes.

Yes, that's why topics like this are important to discuss, even though they can get emotive. Nobody wants to put down puppies they have bred.

Looking from another point of view, why would a person choose to buy a pet of higher health risk than its littermates? You would hope that puppy buyers want their dogs to have as long and comfortable lives as possible and would want to buy from breeders that felt that supplying only healthy, quality pups to puppy buyers was an important part of their breeding ethic.

i thought I read earlier that registered breeders werent allowed to sell theit white pups.

So give them to a rescue organisation. There is always deaf dogs going through the rescue world and all manage to find homes.

If they are desexed, chipped, vaccinated and well versed in deaf dog care then i see that as a good thing.

So you are encouraging breeders to offload dogs onto rescue rather than taking responsibility of the dogs for themselves?

Really there are enough dogs in rescue already. And no, not everything can be found suitable homes (finding suitable ones for even the 'healthy' dogs can be a challenge at times).

Not everyone wants or has the capacity to take on a pet with special needs, and not everyone who wants to is a suitable candidate to do it.

Responsible breeders will make choices which to the best of their ability limit the opportunities for issues such as deafness occurring.

But sometimes breeders have to make the hard decisions, and they don't do it lightly or without care or anguish.

Many a breeder has cried over a puppy that has been given its wings for for any number of reasons.

Edited March 27, 2012 by espinay2

[nawnim]

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Edited June 9, 2012 by padraic

[Bartok]

This is Mia - she is 11mths old and I recently saved and rehomed her.

Apparently both parents were white boxers

If some of the statistics of what has been posted up here already by those in the breed are true, then it is good Mia is not deaf and good on you for rescuing her.

But.....

Why breed from something that is recorded and known to produce issues? That is a little irresponsible??

Why breed from something that increases the likelihood of producing issues? Shouldn't you be breeding to LESSEN the likelihood?

Boxers are not my breed, however deafness does occur in border collies and is also related to the white gene and white factoring. Why breed from two dogs knowingly carrying excess white to produce the potential of blind/deaf puppies?

Why put out there the burden on someone else to look after a problem that could have been avoided in the outset?

then lets ban all the dogs that could have white deaf puppies.

I dont think the people who have adopted these "problem" dogs see them as a problem at all

[nawnim]

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Edited June 9, 2012 by padraic

[Alkhe]

This is Mia - she is 11mths old and I recently saved and rehomed her.

Apparently both parents were white boxers

If some of the statistics of what has been posted up here already by those in the breed are true, then it is good Mia is not deaf and good on you for rescuing her.

But.....

Why breed from something that is recorded and known to produce issues? That is a little irresponsible??

Why breed from something that increases the likelihood of producing issues? Shouldn't you be breeding to LESSEN the likelihood?

Boxers are not my breed, however deafness does occur in border collies and is also related to the white gene and white factoring. Why breed from two dogs knowingly carrying excess white to produce the potential of blind/deaf puppies?

Why put out there the burden on someone else to look after a problem that could have been avoided in the outset?

then lets ban all the dogs that could have white deaf puppies.

I dont think the people who have adopted these "problem" dogs see them as a problem at all

I thought the aim of all breeders of purebred dogs was to breed healthy puppies. Besides this thread has already established that white boxer pups don't have to happen. They can be avoided.

Yes, I think there is a difference between addressing a problem that happens (ie accommodating deaf puppies), and preventing it happening if you know it’s a risk. I personally agree with some other posters that is irresponsible to breed two dogs together if you know there is a risk that they will be afflicted with a known genetic condition, including deafness.

Of course people who have adopted and care for deaf dogs and puppies don’t consider their dogs a problem – the issue is knowingly bringing deaf dogs into the world when instead, healthy dogs could be bred and healthy puppies brought into the world.

One of my dogs is a BYB poodle cross. I don’t consider her a problem at all – far from it. She is the light of my life and I love her more than anything. But in hindsight, I think she probably came from a puppy farm, and I wish that puppy farms didn’t exist. In a perfect world, my dog Mimi wouldn’t exist, because the puppy farm (or BYB, who even knows!) wouldn’t have been in operation. However, I love her, she’s here, and she’s loved and happy and healthy.

It can be difficult enough to train a hearing puppy, and many dog owners clearly have problems here and have dogs that never reach the level of obedience that they desire. Training is complicated that extra bit when there is a hearing or visual impairment. Yes, there are ways to train deaf dogs, and I’m sure I could google and find a bunch of articles about dogs that live full, happy lives and are brilliant with hand signals, and I’m sure there are probably some champion obedience or other dogs that are deaf. That’s beside the point – why breed together dogs that may produce deaf dogs, when you KNOW that this is a risk? Breed dogs that you can be certain (as certain as you can be, with breeding and genetics!) are not predisposed to it, and won’t produce deaf puppies.

[Mystiqview]

then lets ban all the dogs that could have white deaf puppies.

I dont think the people who have adopted these "problem" dogs see them as a problem at all

Then lets ban the breeding of all dogs.

Let's only let the irresponsible puppy farmers breed dogs. Obviously they do it better than registered breeders.

The point still is and always SHOULD be:

"Why breed from two dogs who you know/or will increase the likelihood to produce problems" when it the chances can be lessened with a little thought or research.

Why increase the risk of putting the "problem" there in the first place??

[The Spotted Devil]

then lets ban all the dogs that could have white deaf puppies.

I dont think the people who have adopted these "problem" dogs see them as a problem at all

Then lets ban the breeding of all dogs.

Let's only let the irresponsible puppy farmers breed dogs. Obviously they do it better than registered breeders.

The point still is and always SHOULD be:

"Why breed from two dogs who you know/or will increase the likelihood to produce problems" when it the chances can be lessened with a little thought or research.

Why increase the risk of putting the "problem" there in the first place??

Mystiqueview, I *think* the two dogs you are speaking of were mated, dumped and then rescued with the puppies subsequently re-homed. I suspect there was very little thought or research involved.

[Greytmate]

Suggesting that breeders should dump their faulty pups on rescue is disgusting. The ultimate in irresponsible breeding.

While there are people who will adopt special needs dogs, there are many that take them and bounce them back again, because they didn't properly understand those needs.

A good breeder will do all in their power to avoid breeding dogs with faults, and take full responsibility when they get it wrong. If they can't do that, they should stay out of breeding.

[LizT]

No worries LizT :) The mode of inheritance in Dalmatians is not clear although it is definitely pigment related. I know of one breeder in particular who consistently breeds from bilateral hearing dogs and has had incredibly good BAER results that even astounded the vet. I think they have had one unilaterally deaf pup over a number of litters, which would do perfectly well in a pet home. So it annoyed the hell out of me when I saw a Dally breeder in the UK on the PDE docco talking about her wonderful show/breeding dog who was unilaterally deaf. It doesn't help the breed in any way, shape or form.

No it doesn't. And while it might seem easy to say give teh deaf pups to rescue it isn't as clear cut as that either.

My ex Bro in law had a ACD many 20 ago that was an absolute horror. He had been passed from owner to owner and no one could do anything with him. My BIL took him on as it was the end of the line for this boy who was about 18 months old at the time. He took him along to obedience training and the instructor immediately suspected the dog was deaf.

With much patience and kindness they worked together to teach Ollie with hand signals etc. Ollie passed away at about 12 years of age and would never have had such a good life if it had been left up to the less observant and patient people in his youth.

While admirable I can tell you not everyone is equipped to deal with it. And nor should they be expected to either.

[Mystiqview]

then lets ban all the dogs that could have white deaf puppies.

I dont think the people who have adopted these "problem" dogs see them as a problem at all

Then lets ban the breeding of all dogs.

Let's only let the irresponsible puppy farmers breed dogs. Obviously they do it better than registered breeders.

The point still is and always SHOULD be:

"Why breed from two dogs who you know/or will increase the likelihood to produce problems" when it the chances can be lessened with a little thought or research.

Why increase the risk of putting the "problem" there in the first place??

Mystiqueview, I *think* the two dogs you are speaking of were mated, dumped and then rescued with the puppies subsequently re-homed. I suspect there was very little thought or research involved.

Spotted Devil,

*Bold* - I get that. I am not so naive to BYB's and their don't care attitude. Needless to say there are some Registered breeders who are no better than BYB and some (in minority) BYB who should look at being registered breeders.

I think there are a number of sub-threads going on in here. Bartok's post about just because they rescued a white boxer who was not deaf, is not necessarily the norm. Granted, that dog is more than likely from a BYB litter and they did not give any thought or reason to their mating - accident or otherwise.

It is great that dog had found a home and is not deaf.

However, the comment "of put them in rescue for them to rehome" is disgusting. Then to say "lets ban all dogs who can produce deaf white puppies" is equally ludicrous. I know of black non white factored dogs producing excess white in offspring. So really, to stop the white puppy, then it should be phrased, lets ban breeding all dogs - as unless you DNA test for EVERYTHING (which is impossible) you cannot stop it.

From my take on this thread, any who deliberately mate white to white is not a registered breeder as it is against the breed standard for Boxers.

THe last underlying thread that has come through this thread is breeding two dogs together with the knowing fact it could produce deaf white puppies (amongst other issues). This is where research of lines SHOULD come in and caution taken.

[The Spotted Devil]

I agree with much of what you've said :) Just wasn't sure if you'd picked up the back story as it got a bit lost!

[mac'ella]

Ive owned 2 white boxers the 1st a female was deaf but learned hand signals very easily and was probably more obedient than most normal dogs,our daughters were born after wards and grew up with her and there was never a problem,she never had skin cancer and lived to 12 when she had a stroke.

My 2nd was a male, he had an eye patch and perfect hearing he lived to 14 and also had no skin cancers,both were outside dogs so were in the sun when ever they chose to,as said previously the white gene comes from the original breeding and if breeders keep trying to breed flashy types then whites will still be born,there are 2 sides to this as far as deafness goes as a lot of owners cant cope with a deaf dog,but imagine the outrage if breeders were banned from breeding with dogs which bred deaf pups,as in other problems,there is no reason to euth these pups if they can be sold as pets,this is one reason I bought my 2nd as I wanted a pet only.

The girl who bred him had a fallout with the boxer club because she wouldnt euth the whites,from the litter, lucky for me she didnt because he turned out to be a great and loyal dog.

[Kirty]

I know in cats there are genetically several ways for a cat to be born white. In some white cats, the white masks another colour, so genetically the cat could be black, red, whatever. Some of these cats are deaf, some aren't. Blue-eyed white cats are often deaf, and odd-eyed white cats are often deaf on the blue side.

However, the gene which causes Foreign Whites (white Siamese) to be born white, does not cause deafness. These cats are pure white with blue eyes.

There is also apparently a dominant white gene which is very rare.

I have had a few white foster cats including a white hearing mum who had four white kittens (three deaf, one hearing). It's all very interesting and I'm guessing that there are multiple white genes in dogs too. A friend of a friend is a BYB of white Boxers and to date, none of their pups have been deaf.

[Steve]

So why then do we have White Shepherds, who were once German Shepherds now with a different name, also the West Highland Whites, were once Cairn Terriers. Nothing wrong with these white breeds. Not every white dog is going to be deaf, same as every white cat is not deaf. If it is only being done to conform to breed standards for showing, why cull otherwise perfectly healthy white pups, whose only crime in life is to be born white. Just my opinion.

Different white gene .The boxer gene is the white spotting gene and operates differently - too little pigment on the ear drum and you get deaf boxers - there is a big difference between one boxer which is mainly white and another.The whole they get cancer more etc is a bit of a red herring as many flashy boxers also have some lack of black pigment around their noses etc and a white boxer isnt an albino so they usually still have pigment on their noses and around the eye.

A white boxer bred to another white boxer means that most of the puppies would suffer in some way so clearly no one wants them to be mated together but a plain boxer mated to a white boxer makes beautiful babies with no whites .Flashy x flashy also means that some of the puppies will be white .So rather than be specific about what can be bred with what dog the assumption via the CC is that some people will be idiots so we ban the breeding of all white boxers. Couple of years ago we could still register white on the limited register but it was found that some were using limited register to breed white x white without understanding or caring that it was making babies which would suffer.

Thus the decision to not allow them to be registered at all or ever to be able to make puppies which will suffer.

Based on how the codes read you have to register all live puppies but you cant register white boxers would appear to be saying bump them off .Some breeders have a white with markings in their yard which are registered as red or brindle and white - which is true but not really as they only have a small amount of red or brindle and really should be called white.

In Australia there is no need for someone to breed white boxers as if they stay away form flashy x flashy or flashy x white it doesn't happen bit harder in some other countries where only flashy and not plain is able to be shown.

[Steve]

Hi

My understanding is that white boxer pups are euthanased because they are considered to be a throwback to the white bulldog which is considered undesirable. It was once normal for breeders to euthanase white puppies not because they were potentially deaf but because of the white genes. A breeder once told me that the white puppies were often the healthiest in the litter. Today many white boxer pups are saved and sold as pets.

My son has a rescue boxer. Both parents were rescued before the mother gave birth. The father was a white boxer and the mother was a plain red. There were ten pups, all red with flashy white markings and destined for the pet shop where they would sell quickly because of their white markings. To the best of my knowledge all of these pups are healthy.

PD

No not true, no one cares about a throw back etc - the white spotting gene is what makes a flashy boxer look stunning, gives it the socks and white markings on its face.

In some countries only flashy can be shown.

[Steve]

I have a dog (not a boxer) with a white head which includes white ears. She has perfect hearing. She competes and is very successful in obedience and agility, as well as being a wonderful ambassador for her breed. Thank God her breeder didn't get rid of her before she had a chance is all I can say.

If she has perfect hearing it means that she has some pigment (colour) in her inner ears. Without that pigmentation, parts of the inner ear would be unable to function, and she would be deaf.

Depending on the breed, the patterns of unpigmented areas can vary. In my breed (greyhound) you do get dogs that appear to be all white. But on close inspection most of the white ones have very faint pigment spots on the ear skin, and so deafness is rare in the breed. Other breeds have different distribution of pigments that result in a different variety of colours and so deafness can be much more common.

Yes, I understand the mechanism. But I believe that most white boxers are not deaf and therefore do have some pigmentation.

Most white boxers which come from a flashy x flashy mating are not deaf - the problem is that white x white or white x flashy will pretty much guarantee it - so most breeders are trying to eliminate any chance of these matings happening and believe that bumping them off does that - however there are a lot of myths and when the boxer club or CC ban them and clearly want them put down it stops people thinking it through and going after an informed decision rather than simply feeling the regs are in place and thats all they need to know.

[Steve]

Just to clarify my previous comment about white boxers getting cancer, I was referring to the known fact that boxers (not the white ones) are very prone to cancer and sometimes at a very early age. My vet told me it is genetic and it is probably impossible to breed it out of them. None of my six boxers were white and five died from cancer so I was just wondering if the white ones get cancer as well. As a breed they are fantastic dogs but they do get cancer and often don't live very long which is why I no longer have one. PD

But boxers are more prone to bone and other cancers with a higher rate in animals which have been desexed not skin cancers.

[Steve]

Sorry if this is getting too off topic as I obviously don't own a boxer. But for reference here is my dog as a wee pup compared to now. The visible pigment has come in over time. There would have been no way to tell as a baby whether she'd be deaf or not (except that she obviously responded to noises from a young age).

But your dog has a huge amount of pigment and was never at any risk for deafness - its a different gene. White boxers dont have anywhere near that amount of colour.

[Steve]

I thought that there was also an issue with their internal organs being more prone to cancer too. Can anybody please confirm or elaborate on this?

Not true.

[Steve]

Ultimately the decision lies with the breeder the same as the decision to euthanise oops crossbreds or some of a very large litter in breeds that are hard to sell. These are some of the tough decisions breeders have to make depending on how likely the puppies are to get good homes, not just any homes.

Yes, that's why topics like this are important to discuss, even though they can get emotive. Nobody wants to put down puppies they have bred.

Looking from another point of view, why would a person choose to buy a pet of higher health risk than its littermates? You would hope that puppy buyers want their dogs to have as long and comfortable lives as possible and would want to buy from breeders that felt that supplying only healthy, quality pups to puppy buyers was an important part of their breeding ethic.

I'm a little confused. Is this comment saying that white boxers have a higher health risk? I thought that had not yet been established. I have asked whether white boxers are more prone to cancer. No-one seems to know. I think it has been established that white boxers are not usually deaf.

PD

This is true there is no evidence that white boxers are any less healthy and very few white boxers which come from flashy flahy matings are deaf. Most white boxers which come from white x flashy or white x white are deaf.