Boxer Breeders Euthanising White Puppies

[trinabean]

White markings genetics

This website has a pretty good explanation of why white Boxers occur. The genetics is different to other breeds with white markings so any reference to what happens in other breeds is quite irrelevant.

I really would be surprised if this is a big problem among registered breeders here. Looking through the top 20 or so dogs on the Boxer Pointscore here on DOL there are only 2 dogs that would be described as flashy. If the majority are not flashy then there is no need to do flashy to flashy matings. I think the situation is different in the US where flashy tends to be more common.

More of a problem is the unregistered BYBs that think it is a good idea to breed white boxers and promote them as something desirable. The bottom line is they should never be born.

A quick look through the DOL pointscore showed only one dog that was truly a 'plain' boxer. Most of them had at least two feet white well above the paw and some white on the face, and a lot of them had four stockings and white on the neck even if they didn't have the full or half collar. Genetically, that's flashy, although probably with some modifiers which may reduce the overall chance of fully white pups if bred to a really flashy, white collar, high stockings and face blaze dog (the genetics are not fully worked out for that). There was only one dog with a complete black face and white only on throat, chest, belly and toe tips, and it was a natural bob tail which is a whole other controversy :)

You can breed flashy to flashy and get plain dogs. You can breed moderate flashy to moderately plain and get white pups. There's more than one gene involved, I think.

Incidentally, to Espinay, I applaud what you said. I would like to see some things in boxers, but as I have chosen not to breed this particular breed I hope I confine my opinions to that only, and leave the harder decisions to those who actually do the job. It's not easy being a breeder, particularly if your breed has dilemmas attached, and I don't feel that my opinion should force boxer clubs in this case. It'd be nice to see some changes, but even that is not going to eliminate this particular issue in this breed and sometimes breeders will have to decide between two undesireable outcomes. That is something that will happen to any breeder for some reason or other - I have bred cats, and I've been through the dilemma of whether to euthanise a sickly kitten or treat and cause suffering which may not in the end save a life. A boxer breeder who has come to an ethical decision to euthanise white pups will not find me standing outside their door with a pitchfork and flaming torch, and neither will one who homes whites.

I still don't understand why whites can't be limit registered, though!

If you read the genetics info you will see the dogs with white chests and legs are sisi or plain, and the dogs with full collars are sisw flashy and these are the dogs that can produce swsw extreme white. Two sisi cannot produce white.

I also looked through the top 20 pointscore dogs as I was surprised at Dancinbc's comment that most of the dogs were plain, not flashy. I disagree Dancinbc's as in fact, almost all of the featured dogs had some 'flashy' markings breaking up their black masks. My understanding was that a 'plain' Boxer has a full black mask (like my avatar). A plain dog does normally have white markings on the chest, feet and tip of the tail.

It seems to me that Boxer breeders are between a rock and a hard place. You only have to watch a thread come up on DOL where someone states that they plan to breed their dog, to see how quickly they are questioned as to whether they have shown their dog. This seems to be the accepted benchmark of testing if a dog is a good example of its breed, and therefore whether it should even be considered worthy of breeding. I'm not saying this is a bad thing however, it sets up a notion that good breeders always show their dogs.

So in simple terms, most reputable registered breeders are people who show their dogs. In Boxers, the dogs that do well in the show ring are 99.9% flashy boxers. Breeders can't keep an infinite no. of dogs. Therefore the pedigreed, health-tested dogs that are bred from are by and large, flashy Boxers. Many top stud dogs are also flashy. My own dogs' sire had the full white collar markings and 2 white pups were in his litter. Show people don't want plain Boxers ('Show potential' pups are normally flashy) so they are Limited Register and pet-homed out.

It's been established that white boxers shouldn't be bred from, and very few breeders seem to show or breed from plains, so how do we change things? There isn't a 'working lines' and 'show lines' gene pool to work with, unlike some breeds. There seems to be show lines and BYB dogs, (with the latter accounting for the white x white breeding). To their credit, Boxer breeders have been focussed on health issues such as heart testing and accountability through heart murmer scheme registers.

I take my hat off to breeders who do rigourous health testing of their dogs (and Clemevi you're one of them ;)). I do worry about the future of the breed though. I'm neither a breeder or a show person but as (*I think) LappieHappy pointed out earlier, is it time we saw more plain dogs being shown and recognized in the ring? If breeders were encouraged to keep some genetically plain dogs (of good conformation) in their breeding programs, white pups won't be a regular occurance. Nor the issues that can come with them.

*goes off to do more reading on genetics* :)

edited: Damn, I feel like a numpty posting this now! Jed did an excellent post while I was slowly typing away.

Edited March 31, 2012 by trinabean

[Jed]

Regarding flashy and genetically plain.

This is a link to a dog who is genetically plain, there are photos of him and his parents. It is worth a look for anyone who is interested in this subject. And I think some of you may see that choosing a genetically plain dog is not a stroll in the park.

http://www.berlane.net/

and please click on "The Boys" in the menu on the left hand side, and then click on Berlane's Joint Venture.

Scroll down for photos of him and his parents - they come after the results of the health tests. He has more chrome than you would think a "genetically plain" dog would have, and his parents have even more.

As far as plain boxers in the ring, some black masked boxers have titled in Q lately,and the dog at Westminster who was opposite sex (?) or second to the BOB (whatever, I've forgotten) was a very plain dog. Also a very beautiful dog. I put the Westminster link on the boxer breed forum, if anyone wants to see it. He is the first dog in the lineup,

trinabean you picked up a few things I missed :)

Edited March 31, 2012 by Jed

[espinay2]

Regarding flashy and genetically plain.

This is a link to a dog who is genetically plain, there are photos of him and his parents. It is worth a look for anyone who is interested in this subject. And I think some of you may see that choosing a genetically plain dog is not a stroll in the park.

http://www.berlane.net/

and please click on "The Boys" in the menu on the left hand side, and then click on Berlane's Joint Venture.

Scroll down for photos of him and his parents - they come after the results of the health tests. He has more chrome than you would think a "genetically plain" dog would have, and his parents have even more.

As far as plain boxers in the ring, some black masked boxers have titled in Q lately,and the dog at Westminster who was opposite sex (?) or second to the BOB (whatever, I've forgotten) was a very plain dog. Also a very beautiful dog. I put the Westminster link on the boxer breed forum, if anyone wants to see it. He is the first dog in the lineup,

trinabean you picked up a few things I missed :)

Some great info in your posts Jed .

A question. When you are referring to 'genetically plain' in this context, are you referring to dogs with white markings that are sⁱsⁱ rather than sⁱs^w or are you talking about an SS dog with residual white from incomplete pigment spread?

[LizT]

Incidentally, anyone familiar with purebred dogs, particularly boxers and some other breeds, knows that "chrome" refers to white markings, as it does in horses. It is possible to have a good knowledge of both horses and dogs, as Crisovar has, having constantly won at high levels with both, and having bred successfully. People who spend time at dog and horse events, and people who have done some basic reading are aware of the meaning of "chrome". It is by no means either an obscure or new term.

...very true. I have heard the word "chrome" used to refer to flashy white markings in both the dog and horse world. :)

Edited March 31, 2012 by LizT

[3amigos]

Quite a lot of misinformation has been disseminated in this thread, by people who have not owned boxers, and do not breed.

For anyone who is genuinely interested, I suggest you contact your state canine control and ask them about the situation regarding white boxers and registration, or no registration, and the status of any breeder who produces white boxers.

NOT the state breed club, which does not make the rules. The thoughts of the breed club are immaterial in this regard. Nothing against any breed club, but that is how it is.

I also suggest you read up colour genetics, the white in the boxer is different from other breeds. I also suggest reading some credible sites, or a book which contains information on white boxers.

Some of the founding dogs of this breed were white.

Whites were excluded from the breed register and shows in the late 1800s or early 1900s, (not sure without checking - it is not important) after a decision by the Boxer Club. It is believed that this decision was made because boxers were guard dogs (and were used extensively by the German Army in World Wars) and a white dog was too obvious to the enemy or an intruder.

However, it may also have been that some white dogs were deaf, and the club excluded them from the stud books because the committee of the time thought that allowing white boxers to interbreed with the general boxer population may have increased the incidence of deafness in the general boxer population.

The latter is still a valid reason in the opinion of many breeders not to allow the whites to interbreed. This matter is under consideration by the breed club in the country of origin

Now there are fewer boxer breeders, and fewer stud dogs, breeders as always are seeking foremost, dogs which are healthy, with good conformation and temperament. Colour does not affect health or function, and most breeders would prefer to breed a litter with the possibility of some whites, than an ugly unhealthy litter, so they will use the best dog possible. Bearing in mind that most breeders would prefer not to produce white.

And to not throw white, the dogs must be genetically plain. Because there are so few boxers around, it is very difficult to ascertain which dogs are genetically plain, and those breeders wanting genetically plain are seeking semen from overseas where it is possible to advertise dogs as genetically plain.

I also suggest that you check out the puppy listings on DOL, and see how many white boxers are offered for sale.

Yes some breeders do euth the whites, but many do not.

And rather than being concerned about what may amount to a very few boxers being euthed by responsible breeders annually, and some of them being raised to 6 - 8 weeks and then being euthed because they are deaf, it would be more productive to be concerned about, and take some action on the many dogs being euthed in pounds every week or dumped on the side of the road.

Incidentally, anyone familiar with purebred dogs, particularly boxers and some other breeds, knows that "chrome" refers to white markings, as it does in horses. It is possible to have a good knowledge of both horses and dogs, as Crisovar has, having constantly won at high levels with both, and having bred successfully. People who spend time at dog and horse events, and people who have done some basic reading are aware of the meaning of "chrome". It is by no means either an obscure or new term.

In fact, I would suggest that only people who aspire to be artistic would be aware of any other meaning (apart from "chrome" on cars!)

reason will prevail (dont no if i spelt that right)

[nawnim]

...

Edited June 9, 2012 by padraic

[3amigos]

Quite a lot of misinformation has been disseminated in this thread, by people who have not owned boxers, and do not breed.

For anyone who is genuinely interested, I suggest you contact your state canine control and ask them about the situation regarding white boxers and registration, or no registration, and the status of any breeder who produces white boxers.

NOT the state breed club, which does not make the rules. The thoughts of the breed club are immaterial in this regard. Nothing against any breed club, but that is how it is.

I also suggest you read up colour genetics, the white in the boxer is different from other breeds. I also suggest reading some credible sites, or a book which contains information on white boxers.

Some of the founding dogs of this breed were white.

Whites were excluded from the breed register and shows in the late 1800s or early 1900s, (not sure without checking - it is not important) after a decision by the Boxer Club. It is believed that this decision was made because boxers were guard dogs (and were used extensively by the German Army in World Wars) and a white dog was too obvious to the enemy or an intruder.

However, it may also have been that some white dogs were deaf, and the club excluded them from the stud books because the committee of the time thought that allowing white boxers to interbreed with the general boxer population may have increased the incidence of deafness in the general boxer population.

The latter is still a valid reason in the opinion of many breeders not to allow the whites to interbreed. This matter is under consideration by the breed club in the country of origin

Now there are fewer boxer breeders, and fewer stud dogs, breeders as always are seeking foremost, dogs which are healthy, with good conformation and temperament. Colour does not affect health or function, and most breeders would prefer to breed a litter with the possibility of some whites, than an ugly unhealthy litter, so they will use the best dog possible. Bearing in mind that most breeders would prefer not to produce white.

And to not throw white, the dogs must be genetically plain. Because there are so few boxers around, it is very difficult to ascertain which dogs are genetically plain, and those breeders wanting genetically plain are seeking semen from overseas where it is possible to advertise dogs as genetically plain.

I also suggest that you check out the puppy listings on DOL, and see how many white boxers are offered for sale.

Yes some breeders do euth the whites, but many do not.

And rather than being concerned about what may amount to a very few boxers being euthed by responsible breeders annually, and some of them being raised to 6 - 8 weeks and then being euthed because they are deaf, it would be more productive to be concerned about, and take some action on the many dogs being euthed in pounds every week or dumped on the side of the road.

Incidentally, anyone familiar with purebred dogs, particularly boxers and some other breeds, knows that "chrome" refers to white markings, as it does in horses. It is possible to have a good knowledge of both horses and dogs, as Crisovar has, having constantly won at high levels with both, and having bred successfully. People who spend time at dog and horse events, and people who have done some basic reading are aware of the meaning of "chrome". It is by no means either an obscure or new term.

In fact, I would suggest that only people who aspire to be artistic would be aware of any other meaning (apart from "chrome" on cars!)

reason will prevail (dont no if i spelt that right)

Can this forum please be allowed to drop off the first page. It has outworn its usefulness.

TRying hard!!! maybe if we fill it with (I do this with Xena) they will get the idea! Done and dusted

Edited March 31, 2012 by 3amigos

[Steve]

There seems to a lot of misinformation in this thread much of it bought by people who dont breed them and an inability to understand that boxers really are quite unique in the whole white gene issue and you cant compare them to other breeds.

The fact is most boxers have some form of the white spotting gene- this is the white you see only in some areas such as the toes ,chest , tail and belly but in boxers there are two genes in the game - the white spotting gene and the extreme white. So because of the modifying effect of how these genes are affected you can have a genetically flashy boxer that is modified to only have a small amount of white markings and may look almost identical to a genetically plain boxer - one which doesn't have the extreme white gene.

There is a lot more to breeding dogs than only considering one gene or two genes and ignore the other 100,000 or so makes little sense and a breeder may choose one dog over another for a hundred different reasons.It wasnt so hard a few years back because there was a reasonable sized gene pool to choose from but due to the number who have walked away from breeding, limited register etc the choices breeders have now are way smaller than they should be. What is the greater sin, breeding a white boxer or two or breeding dogs destined to have heart issues or cancer,HD or unable to breathe or live past 5 years of age?

Nothing is ever simple and only a breeder who is working with the dogs can know the potential consequences of each mating.

Sure some will mate dogs based on little else but how the dog looks but experienced educated breeders will have info they bring to the table in their choices which only they know and in the big scheme of things whether a percentage of their pups are born white may be a better option for the breed and the dogs they allow to go into pet homes.

As long as a breeder is educated on the possibilities both good and bad and they can articulate why they go one way or another there are way too many variables for someone standing on the outside to make judgement and determine what they should or should not do.

People who show or breed boxers and other breeds that have the white spotting gene use the terminology chrome to describe the amount of flashiness and have done so for as long as I can remember.

[Steve]

[Gremlins

Edited March 31, 2012 by Steve

[Steve]

Quite a lot of misinformation has been disseminated in this thread, by people who have not owned boxers, and do not breed.

For anyone who is genuinely interested, I suggest you contact your state canine control and ask them about the situation regarding white boxers and registration, or no registration, and the status of any breeder who produces white boxers.

NOT the state breed club, which does not make the rules. The thoughts of the breed club are immaterial in this regard. Nothing against any breed club, but that is how it is.

I also suggest you read up colour genetics, the white in the boxer is different from other breeds. I also suggest reading some credible sites, or a book which contains information on white boxers.

Some of the founding dogs of this breed were white.

Whites were excluded from the breed register and shows in the late 1800s or early 1900s, (not sure without checking - it is not important) after a decision by the Boxer Club. It is believed that this decision was made because boxers were guard dogs (and were used extensively by the German Army in World Wars) and a white dog was too obvious to the enemy or an intruder.

However, it may also have been that some white dogs were deaf, and the club excluded them from the stud books because the committee of the time thought that allowing white boxers to interbreed with the general boxer population may have increased the incidence of deafness in the general boxer population.

The latter is still a valid reason in the opinion of many breeders not to allow the whites to interbreed. This matter is under consideration by the breed club in the country of origin

Now there are fewer boxer breeders, and fewer stud dogs, breeders as always are seeking foremost, dogs which are healthy, with good conformation and temperament. Colour does not affect health or function, and most breeders would prefer to breed a litter with the possibility of some whites, than an ugly unhealthy litter, so they will use the best dog possible. Bearing in mind that most breeders would prefer not to produce white.

And to not throw white, the dogs must be genetically plain. Because there are so few boxers around, it is very difficult to ascertain which dogs are genetically plain, and those breeders wanting genetically plain are seeking semen from overseas where it is possible to advertise dogs as genetically plain.

I also suggest that you check out the puppy listings on DOL, and see how many white boxers are offered for sale.

Yes some breeders do euth the whites, but many do not.

And rather than being concerned about what may amount to a very few boxers being euthed by responsible breeders annually, and some of them being raised to 6 - 8 weeks and then being euthed because they are deaf, it would be more productive to be concerned about, and take some action on the many dogs being euthed in pounds every week or dumped on the side of the road.

Incidentally, anyone familiar with purebred dogs, particularly boxers and some other breeds, knows that "chrome" refers to white markings, as it does in horses. It is possible to have a good knowledge of both horses and dogs, as Crisovar has, having constantly won at high levels with both, and having bred successfully. People who spend time at dog and horse events, and people who have done some basic reading are aware of the meaning of "chrome". It is by no means either an obscure or new term.

In fact, I would suggest that only people who aspire to be artistic would be aware of any other meaning (apart from "chrome" on cars!)

reason will prevail (dont no if i spelt that right)

Can this forum please be allowed to drop off the first page. It has outworn its usefulness.

So why would you want to decide what others on the forum should talk about ? If its lost its usefulness for you simply don't come in here .it looks to me that it should go on longer because much of the stuff thats been posted here is crap and has people thinking that someone who doesn't breed them or show them is the expert.

[Boronia]

There seems to a lot of misinformation in this thread much of it bought by people who dont breed them and an inability to understand that boxers really are quite unique in the whole white gene issue and you cant compare them to other breeds.

The fact is most boxers have some form of the white spotting gene- this is the white you see only in some areas such as the toes ,chest , tail and belly but in boxers there are two genes in the game - the white spotting gene and the extreme white. So because of the modifying effect of how these genes are affected you can have a genetically flashy boxer that is modified to only have a small amount of white markings and may look almost identical to a genetically plain boxer - one which doesn't have the extreme white gene.

There is a lot more to breeding dogs than only considering one gene or two genes and ignore the other 100,000 or so makes little sense and a breeder may choose one dog over another for a hundred different reasons.It wasnt so hard a few years back because there was a reasonable sized gene pool to choose from but due to the number who have walked away from breeding, limited register etc the choices breeders have now are way smaller than they should be. What is the greater sin, breeding a white boxer or two or breeding dogs destined to have heart issues or cancer,HD or unable to breathe or live past 5 years of age?

Nothing is ever simple and only a breeder who is working with the dogs can know the potential consequences of each mating.

Sure some will mate dogs based on little else but how the dog looks but experienced educated breeders will have info they bring to the table in their choices which only they know and in the big scheme of things whether a percentage of their pups are born white may be a better option for the breed and the dogs they allow to go into pet homes.

As long as a breeder is educated on the possibilities both good and bad and they can articulate why they go one way or another there are way too many variables for someone standing on the outside to make judgement and determine what they should or should not do.

People who show or breed boxers and other breeds that have the white spotting gene use the terminology chrome to describe the amount of flashiness and have done so for as long as I can remember.

That is interesting that Boxers have two white genes Steve, does that mean that dog breeds that are normally white..Malts, Samoyed, Bichon Frise, Maremma and of course Westies have only the one white gene?...I was wondering about this as I don't know of any problems of hereditary blindness in these breeds.

This forum is interesting, especially when DOLers who are breeders or have knowledge of genetics are posting.(the other posts are interesting as well :) )

Edited March 31, 2012 by Boronia

[espinay2]

The fact is most boxers have some form of the white spotting gene- this is the white you see only in some areas such as the toes ,chest , tail and belly but in boxers there are two genes in the game - the white spotting gene and the extreme white. So because of the modifying effect of how these genes are affected you can have a genetically flashy boxer that is modified to only have a small amount of white markings and may look almost identical to a genetically plain boxer - one which doesn't have the extreme white gene.

So 'genetically plain' refers to a Boxer that is sⁱsⁱ . Thanks Steve, interesting stuff!!

[espinay2]

That is interesting that Boxers have two white genes Steve, does that mean that dog breeds that are normally white..Malts, Samoyed, Bichon Frise, Maremma and of course Westies have only the one white gene?...I was wondering about this as I don't know of any problems of hereditary blindness in these breeds.

This forum is interesting, especially when DOLers who are breeders or have knowledge of genetics are posting.(the other posts are interesting as well :) )

Dogs such as Samoyed, Bichon and Westies don't have the white spotting gene. They are recessive reds which also carry a phaomelanin dilution so they just 'look' white.

Edited March 31, 2012 by espinay2

[Boronia]

That is interesting that Boxers have two white genes Steve, does that mean that dog breeds that are normally white..Malts, Samoyed, Bichon Frise, Maremma and of course Westies have only the one white gene?...I was wondering about this as I don't know of any problems of hereditary blindness in these breeds.

This forum is interesting, especially when DOLers who are breeders or have knowledge of genetics are posting.(the other posts are interesting as well :) )

Dogs such as Samoyed, Bichon and Westies don't have the white spotting gene. They are recessive reds which also carry a phaomelanin dilution.

Thanks for that espinay2, appreciate it. Now off to read about recessive reds...Google is my friend...

Edited March 31, 2012 by Boronia

[Steve]

That is interesting that Boxers have two white genes Steve, does that mean that dog breeds that are normally white..Malts, Samoyed, Bichon Frise, Maremma and of course Westies have only the one white gene?...I was wondering about this as I don't know of any problems of hereditary blindness in these breeds.

This forum is interesting, especially when DOLers who are breeders or have knowledge of genetics are posting.(the other posts are interesting as well :) )

I know it's confusing and a lot of it is just now being answered via some great research being done at Sydney uni where they are identifying a gene which caused deafness and much of it relates to whether a gen is dominant or recessive etc.For a very long time the problems were only identified as the impact of the white spotting gene - its relative new research which is able to explain it better and much of it appears to be how the genes combine and modify singly and with each other. Its not the same thing with the breeds you have mentioned but it is sort of a similar thing in say dalmatians , cattle dogs etc.

Part of the pain is in the fact that unless you know what the parents genes are so some breedings will happen and cause white puppies because the breeder may have thought they were not using a flashy but rather a plain dog. I would personally consider any that had white in their mask as flashy even if they had little or no white anywhere else but not all would agree with me.

the fact is you can usually prevent white boxers being bred and so breeders should take that into account but as I said its only part of it all and only an educated experienced breeder can determine what is best for their goals.

Simply saying well if you dont have to breed them - dont - its more complicated than that.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Steve

[Jed]

Steve

Part of the pain is in the fact that unless you know what the parents genes are so some breedings will happen and cause white puppies because the breeder may have thought they were not using a flashy but rather a plain dog. I would personally consider any that had white in their mask as flashy even if they had little or no white anywhere else but not all would agree with me.

And it is difficult to know what the parents' genes are.

It is suprising that the dog I posted the link to is genetically plain. I do realise that "genetically plain" dogs don't have white collars or neck markings, but I would think he has too much white to be "plain", and his parents are as flashy as can be.

[Steve]

It is suprising that the dog I posted the link to is genetically plain. I do realise that "genetically plain" dogs don't have white collars or neck markings, but I would think he has too much white to be "plain", and his parents are as flashy as can be.

Which is why I dont think he is genetically plain I believe he looks plain but is genetically flashy.

Some would breed him thinking he were genetically plain and I think he has a fair shot at throwing white pups if mated to a flashy dog.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Steve

[Miz J]

Thought I would hop in here. I have 3 white boxers, they are pets, one is deaf. As a PET owner I don't care if my dogs are tartan to be honest. My responsibility is to make sure that my pets dont breed, they are healthy, have access to vet care, they are not a risk to the community, they are trained and socialised and kept safe. Personally I don't see the need to euthanase white boxers, the pup could be desexed before it is sold but this is the breeders choice based on experience and their ability to appropriately rehome. Putting them into rescue should never be an option, rescues are full of dogs people dont want. 2 of mine are rescued which includes the deaf one, the other from a breeder in NSW. We had to meet strict criteria to get our dog from a breeder and rightly so. Our deaf dog has been a steep learning curve in regard to management and training. Having a deaf dog or any special needs dog is not for everyone, it takes hard work, persistance and rethinking how you manage a dog. There are not many around who have the skills or knowledge to manage a deaf dog nor the patience to educate themselves to do it. Yes boxers have a slighly higher incidence of cancers, thats the breed, not because of the colour. Yes the white boxers are prone to sunburn, thats the same for any white dog. My views are purely personal and based on experience as a pet owner, I have 3 wonderful dogs, all have their quirks and that makes them more adorable. Gabby was battered, bred and starved before dumping, she is possible the most amazing dog I have ever had. Henry is a looney, he is spotty, has one blue eye and one blue/brown eye. He is a clown. Oliver was passed around not well socialised or trained, completely deaf. Reading this they are all misfits and I wouldnt have it any other way. I guess what I am saying is that dogs who don't fit into that "perfect" box are difficult to home and everything needs to be taken into consideration for their long term well being. Our dogs are lucky that they ended up in the right place, perhaps I am the lucky one!

[Jed]

It is suprising that the dog I posted the link to is genetically plain. I do realise that "genetically plain" dogs don't have white collars or neck markings, but I would think he has too much white to be "plain", and his parents are as flashy as can be.

Which is why I dont think he is genetically plain I believe he looks plain but is genetically flashy.

Some would breed him thinking he were genetically plain and I think he has a fair shot at throwing white pups if mated to a flashy dog.

He IS genetically plain. He has had x pups, to flashy bitches all over the world, and never a white. Sired enough pups to be advertised as "genetically plain".

I wouldn't have posted the link unless he was proven as genetically plain. I could have just posted any old flashy boxer.

[LizT]

Quite a lot of misinformation has been disseminated in this thread, by people who have not owned boxers, and do not breed.

For anyone who is genuinely interested, I suggest you contact your state canine control and ask them about the situation regarding white boxers and registration, or no registration, and the status of any breeder who produces white boxers.

NOT the state breed club, which does not make the rules. The thoughts of the breed club are immaterial in this regard. Nothing against any breed club, but that is how it is.

I also suggest you read up colour genetics, the white in the boxer is different from other breeds. I also suggest reading some credible sites, or a book which contains information on white boxers.

Some of the founding dogs of this breed were white.

Whites were excluded from the breed register and shows in the late 1800s or early 1900s, (not sure without checking - it is not important) after a decision by the Boxer Club. It is believed that this decision was made because boxers were guard dogs (and were used extensively by the German Army in World Wars) and a white dog was too obvious to the enemy or an intruder.

However, it may also have been that some white dogs were deaf, and the club excluded them from the stud books because the committee of the time thought that allowing white boxers to interbreed with the general boxer population may have increased the incidence of deafness in the general boxer population.

The latter is still a valid reason in the opinion of many breeders not to allow the whites to interbreed. This matter is under consideration by the breed club in the country of origin

Now there are fewer boxer breeders, and fewer stud dogs, breeders as always are seeking foremost, dogs which are healthy, with good conformation and temperament. Colour does not affect health or function, and most breeders would prefer to breed a litter with the possibility of some whites, than an ugly unhealthy litter, so they will use the best dog possible. Bearing in mind that most breeders would prefer not to produce white.

And to not throw white, the dogs must be genetically plain. Because there are so few boxers around, it is very difficult to ascertain which dogs are genetically plain, and those breeders wanting genetically plain are seeking semen from overseas where it is possible to advertise dogs as genetically plain.

I also suggest that you check out the puppy listings on DOL, and see how many white boxers are offered for sale.

Yes some breeders do euth the whites, but many do not.

And rather than being concerned about what may amount to a very few boxers being euthed by responsible breeders annually, and some of them being raised to 6 - 8 weeks and then being euthed because they are deaf, it would be more productive to be concerned about, and take some action on the many dogs being euthed in pounds every week or dumped on the side of the road.

Incidentally, anyone familiar with purebred dogs, particularly boxers and some other breeds, knows that "chrome" refers to white markings, as it does in horses. It is possible to have a good knowledge of both horses and dogs, as Crisovar has, having constantly won at high levels with both, and having bred successfully. People who spend time at dog and horse events, and people who have done some basic reading are aware of the meaning of "chrome". It is by no means either an obscure or new term.

In fact, I would suggest that only people who aspire to be artistic would be aware of any other meaning (apart from "chrome" on cars!)

reason will prevail (dont no if i spelt that right)

Can this forum please be allowed to drop off the first page. It has outworn its usefulness.

So why would you want to decide what others on the forum should talk about ? If its lost its usefulness for you simply don't come in here .it looks to me that it should go on longer because much of the stuff thats been posted here is crap and has people thinking that someone who doesn't breed them or show them is the expert.

I'm surpirsed so many people have trouble with the concept that conversations "evolve". Whether it be on a 'forum' or a 'round table', this is the beauty of a group of like minded people having a discussion. Rarely will it not find meandering paths on which to explore.

Oh, and to add, the word "bling" is now being used to describe "flashy" in horses I am told. :D

I think in the dog world (particularly Showing) it really is very descriptive of what some exhibitors wear or the ornate leads we use! ;)