Boxer Breeders Euthanising White Puppies

[LizT]

Thought I would hop in here. I have 3 white boxers, they are pets, one is deaf. As a PET owner I don't care if my dogs are tartan to be honest. My responsibility is to make sure that my pets dont breed, they are healthy, have access to vet care, they are not a risk to the community, they are trained and socialised and kept safe. Personally I don't see the need to euthanase white boxers, the pup could be desexed before it is sold but this is the breeders choice based on experience and their ability to appropriately rehome. Putting them into rescue should never be an option, rescues are full of dogs people dont want. 2 of mine are rescued which includes the deaf one, the other from a breeder in NSW. We had to meet strict criteria to get our dog from a breeder and rightly so. Our deaf dog has been a steep learning curve in regard to management and training. Having a deaf dog or any special needs dog is not for everyone, it takes hard work, persistance and rethinking how you manage a dog. There are not many around who have the skills or knowledge to manage a deaf dog nor the patience to educate themselves to do it. Yes boxers have a slighly higher incidence of cancers, thats the breed, not because of the colour. Yes the white boxers are prone to sunburn, thats the same for any white dog. My views are purely personal and based on experience as a pet owner, I have 3 wonderful dogs, all have their quirks and that makes them more adorable. Gabby was battered, bred and starved before dumping, she is possible the most amazing dog I have ever had. Henry is a looney, he is spotty, has one blue eye and one blue/brown eye. He is a clown. Oliver was passed around not well socialised or trained, completely deaf. Reading this they are all misfits and I wouldnt have it any other way. I guess what I am saying is that dogs who don't fit into that "perfect" box are difficult to home and everything needs to be taken into consideration for their long term well being. Our dogs are lucky that they ended up in the right place, perhaps I am the lucky one!

Nice to hear from a white boxer owner Miz J

What you say is very true. And it seems to me the euthanasing of white boxer pups by breeders may have the same humane pre thoughts associated as with those who, in a differnt thread about "What becomes of their dogs if soemthing happens to them" have chosen to make arrangements for their dogs to be PTS rather than any attempts be made to rehome them.

A likeier kinder option in the long run. Sure I realise there are huge differences with choosing to end a life at birth and those who know their dogs may not rehome easily choosing this option 'should' the worst happen. But one would hope that both decisions are made with the better interest of the animal in mind. Right or wrong I'm sure it's not a decision made lightly.

Deaf dogs that find homes where people are able to help them adjust to their disabilities are few and far between, as you say, ceratainly not for everyone. Your deaf dog sounds like one of the lucky ones, now. As do the others who have been fortunate enough to have crossed your path. :)

[Steve]

It is suprising that the dog I posted the link to is genetically plain. I do realise that "genetically plain" dogs don't have white collars or neck markings, but I would think he has too much white to be "plain", and his parents are as flashy as can be.

Which is why I dont think he is genetically plain I believe he looks plain but is genetically flashy.

Some would breed him thinking he were genetically plain and I think he has a fair shot at throwing white pups if mated to a flashy dog.

He IS genetically plain. He has had x pups, to flashy bitches all over the world, and never a white. Sired enough pups to be advertised as "genetically plain".

I wouldn't have posted the link unless he was proven as genetically plain. I could have just posted any old flashy boxer.

Which simply goes to show that its not easy and not all black and white doesn't it ? Without the added info of what his breeding history is we both would have assumed he would be flashy.

[Jed]

It is suprising that the dog I posted the link to is genetically plain. I do realise that "genetically plain" dogs don't have white collars or neck markings, but I would think he has too much white to be "plain", and his parents are as flashy as can be.

Which is why I dont think he is genetically plain I believe he looks plain but is genetically flashy.

Some would breed him thinking he were genetically plain and I think he has a fair shot at throwing white pups if mated to a flashy dog.

He IS genetically plain. He has had x pups, to flashy bitches all over the world, and never a white. Sired enough pups to be advertised as "genetically plain".

I wouldn't have posted the link unless he was proven as genetically plain. I could have just posted any old flashy boxer.

Which simply goes to show that its not easy and not all black and white doesn't it ? Without the added info of what his breeding history is we both would have assumed he would be flashy.

Exactly. And there are no doubt many many more genetically plain boxer dogs, who can't advertise that they are, so we don't know whether they are or not.

It's not all beer and skittles.

[Aetherglow]

White markings genetics

This website has a pretty good explanation of why white Boxers occur. The genetics is different to other breeds with white markings so any reference to what happens in other breeds is quite irrelevant.

I really would be surprised if this is a big problem among registered breeders here. Looking through the top 20 or so dogs on the Boxer Pointscore here on DOL there are only 2 dogs that would be described as flashy. If the majority are not flashy then there is no need to do flashy to flashy matings. I think the situation is different in the US where flashy tends to be more common.

More of a problem is the unregistered BYBs that think it is a good idea to breed white boxers and promote them as something desirable. The bottom line is they should never be born.

A quick look through the DOL pointscore showed only one dog that was truly a 'plain' boxer. Most of them had at least two feet white well above the paw and some white on the face, and a lot of them had four stockings and white on the neck even if they didn't have the full or half collar. Genetically, that's flashy, although probably with some modifiers which may reduce the overall chance of fully white pups if bred to a really flashy, white collar, high stockings and face blaze dog (the genetics are not fully worked out for that). There was only one dog with a complete black face and white only on throat, chest, belly and toe tips, and it was a natural bob tail which is a whole other controversy :)

You can breed flashy to flashy and get plain dogs. You can breed moderate flashy to moderately plain and get white pups. There's more than one gene involved, I think.

Incidentally, to Espinay, I applaud what you said. I would like to see some things in boxers, but as I have chosen not to breed this particular breed I hope I confine my opinions to that only, and leave the harder decisions to those who actually do the job. It's not easy being a breeder, particularly if your breed has dilemmas attached, and I don't feel that my opinion should force boxer clubs in this case. It'd be nice to see some changes, but even that is not going to eliminate this particular issue in this breed and sometimes breeders will have to decide between two undesireable outcomes. That is something that will happen to any breeder for some reason or other - I have bred cats, and I've been through the dilemma of whether to euthanise a sickly kitten or treat and cause suffering which may not in the end save a life. A boxer breeder who has come to an ethical decision to euthanise white pups will not find me standing outside their door with a pitchfork and flaming torch, and neither will one who homes whites.

I still don't understand why whites can't be limit registered, though!

If you read the genetics info you will see the dogs with white chests and legs are sisi or plain, and the dogs with full collars are sisw flashy and these are the dogs that can produce swsw extreme white. Two sisi cannot produce white.

I did read the article, and have read it before. As far as I understand, as boxers don't breed true for 'collie' or Irish spotted markings, it may be some other gene than the white spotting gene responsible or working in addition to it, but that has not been confirmed according to this article: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/colorgen.html. In any case, a true sisi dog with white on the legs will only have white on the toes, not above the paw. All those dogs bar the NBT have white up to at least the top of the pastern on at least two feet.

[Aetherglow]

There seems to a lot of misinformation in this thread much of it bought by people who dont breed them and an inability to understand that boxers really are quite unique in the whole white gene issue and you cant compare them to other breeds.

The fact is most boxers have some form of the white spotting gene- this is the white you see only in some areas such as the toes ,chest , tail and belly but in boxers there are two genes in the game - the white spotting gene and the extreme white. So because of the modifying effect of how these genes are affected you can have a genetically flashy boxer that is modified to only have a small amount of white markings and may look almost identical to a genetically plain boxer - one which doesn't have the extreme white gene.

There is a lot more to breeding dogs than only considering one gene or two genes and ignore the other 100,000 or so makes little sense and a breeder may choose one dog over another for a hundred different reasons.It wasnt so hard a few years back because there was a reasonable sized gene pool to choose from but due to the number who have walked away from breeding, limited register etc the choices breeders have now are way smaller than they should be. What is the greater sin, breeding a white boxer or two or breeding dogs destined to have heart issues or cancer,HD or unable to breathe or live past 5 years of age?

Nothing is ever simple and only a breeder who is working with the dogs can know the potential consequences of each mating.

Sure some will mate dogs based on little else but how the dog looks but experienced educated breeders will have info they bring to the table in their choices which only they know and in the big scheme of things whether a percentage of their pups are born white may be a better option for the breed and the dogs they allow to go into pet homes.

As long as a breeder is educated on the possibilities both good and bad and they can articulate why they go one way or another there are way too many variables for someone standing on the outside to make judgement and determine what they should or should not do.

People who show or breed boxers and other breeds that have the white spotting gene use the terminology chrome to describe the amount of flashiness and have done so for as long as I can remember.

That is interesting that Boxers have two white genes Steve, does that mean that dog breeds that are normally white..Malts, Samoyed, Bichon Frise, Maremma and of course Westies have only the one white gene?...I was wondering about this as I don't know of any problems of hereditary blindness in these breeds.

This forum is interesting, especially when DOLers who are breeders or have knowledge of genetics are posting.(the other posts are interesting as well :) )

I think all of those breeds are genetically yellow (called cream in Lapphunds and probably has other names in other breeds), not white, but bred to the extreme light end of the range. This is the same gene which gives yellow labs, and at least in Samoyeds 'biscuit' is still an allowable colour. These breeds all have dark pigment in their skin under the white fur, so don't suffer the same risk of sunburn and have normally pigmented inner ears, so no deafness - or at least not from the same cause as white boxers and dalmatians.

Thanks for the info re: the extreme white gene, Steve, if I had read to the end of the thread instead of coming back to where I had left off I would have seen that you had already added more up-to-date info than I had! :) And it just goes to show that avoiding white puppies in boxers is indeed harder than it first appears.

The case of the physically flashy but genetically sisi plain boxer is fascinating, Jed.

Edited April 1, 2012 by LappieHappy

[Jed]

There are quite a few boxers who have different phenotype and genotype. There are also some which are probably genetically plain, but we don't breed enough in Aus to prove it either way, so people who are determined not to breed white probably need to import semen.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Jed

[3amigos]

Thought I would hop in here. I have 3 white boxers, they are pets, one is deaf. As a PET owner I don't care if my dogs are tartan to be honest. My responsibility is to make sure that my pets dont breed, they are healthy, have access to vet care, they are not a risk to the community, they are trained and socialised and kept safe. Personally I don't see the need to euthanase white boxers, the pup could be desexed before it is sold but this is the breeders choice based on experience and their ability to appropriately rehome. Putting them into rescue should never be an option, rescues are full of dogs people dont want. 2 of mine are rescued which includes the deaf one, the other from a breeder in NSW. We had to meet strict criteria to get our dog from a breeder and rightly so. Our deaf dog has been a steep learning curve in regard to management and training. Having a deaf dog or any special needs dog is not for everyone, it takes hard work, persistance and rethinking how you manage a dog. There are not many around who have the skills or knowledge to manage a deaf dog nor the patience to educate themselves to do it. Yes boxers have a slighly higher incidence of cancers, thats the breed, not because of the colour. Yes the white boxers are prone to sunburn, thats the same for any white dog. My views are purely personal and based on experience as a pet owner, I have 3 wonderful dogs, all have their quirks and that makes them more adorable. Gabby was battered, bred and starved before dumping, she is possible the most amazing dog I have ever had. Henry is a looney, he is spotty, has one blue eye and one blue/brown eye. He is a clown. Oliver was passed around not well socialised or trained, completely deaf. Reading this they are all misfits and I wouldnt have it any other way. I guess what I am saying is that dogs who don't fit into that "perfect" box are difficult to home and everything needs to be taken into consideration for their long term well being. Our dogs are lucky that they ended up in the right place, perhaps I am the lucky one!

Oh I like you

[StarsHollow]

can anyone shed any light on some previous posts about breeders who choose to raise white puppies and losing their breeder status ??

there are LOTS of white puppies advertised on DOL by registered breeders

PS: i own a white boxer i rescued from the pound, where i worked at the time, fantastic, sweet dog, but has multiple health issues

Edited April 2, 2012 by StarsHollow

[Aetherglow]

can anyone shed any light on some previous posts about breeders who choose to raise white puppies and losing their breeder status ??

there are LOTS of white puppies advertised on DOL by registered breeders

PS: i own a white boxer i rescued from the pound, where i worked at the time, fantastic, sweet dog, but has multiple health issues

I don't believe that breeders lose their standing for raising white boxers anymore, it "wasn't done" in the past and I believe it USED to be that white boxers could not be registered, therefore you could theoretically lose your registered breeder status for selling unregistered dogs.

I did a bit of research on the ANKC site and there is no longer any restriction on registering non-standard colours on the limited register for any breed. It therefore is possible to register whites on the limited register only, which therefore means that boxer breeders will not risk their registration by selling whites as pets. Which of course totally answers my question about why whites can't be registered - these days they can!

PS, I got lovely boxer cuddles last night :)

Edited April 2, 2012 by LappieHappy

[LizT]

can anyone shed any light on some previous posts about breeders who choose to raise white puppies and losing their breeder status ??

there are LOTS of white puppies advertised on DOL by registered breeders

PS: i own a white boxer i rescued from the pound, where i worked at the time, fantastic, sweet dog, but has multiple health issues

I don't believe that breeders lose their standing for raising white boxers anymore, it "wasn't done" in the past and I believe it USED to be that white boxers could not be registered, therefore you could theoretically lose your registered breeder status for selling unregistered dogs.

I did a bit of research on the ANKC site and there is no longer any restriction on registering non-standard colours on the limited register for any breed. It therefore is possible to register whites on the limited register only, which therefore means that boxer breeders will not risk their registration by selling whites as pets. Which of course totally answers my question about why whites can't be registered - these days they can!

PS, I got lovely boxer cuddles last night :)

What about White German Shepherds?

[Aetherglow]

can anyone shed any light on some previous posts about breeders who choose to raise white puppies and losing their breeder status ??

there are LOTS of white puppies advertised on DOL by registered breeders

PS: i own a white boxer i rescued from the pound, where i worked at the time, fantastic, sweet dog, but has multiple health issues

I don't believe that breeders lose their standing for raising white boxers anymore, it "wasn't done" in the past and I believe it USED to be that white boxers could not be registered, therefore you could theoretically lose your registered breeder status for selling unregistered dogs.

I did a bit of research on the ANKC site and there is no longer any restriction on registering non-standard colours on the limited register for any breed. It therefore is possible to register whites on the limited register only, which therefore means that boxer breeders will not risk their registration by selling whites as pets. Which of course totally answers my question about why whites can't be registered - these days they can!

PS, I got lovely boxer cuddles last night :)

What about White German Shepherds?

One assumes that the same applies - they can be registered on the limited register only, if the parents were main registered.

[Jed]

I did a bit of research on the ANKC site and there is no longer any restriction on registering non-standard colours on the limited register for any breed. It therefore is possible to register whites on the limited register only, which therefore means that boxer breeders will not risk their registration by selling whites as pets. Which of course totally answers my question about why whites can't be registered - these days they can!

And - try asking each state CC individually ... the result will be different from what is on the ANKC website. Personally, I think if white pups remain unregistered, people are less inclined to want to breed with them, or to think that perhaps they can.

I offer exactly the same to the buyers of my white pups as I do to buyers of the coloured pups .... except they have paid considerably less, and they do not get any registration papers.

If the CC will not register them, the member cannot register the unregisterable, so there is no need to even worry about your membership for a nanosecond. You cannot do what is impossible. You cannot be in trouble for that. That has always been the way.

[Miz J]

Thought I would hop in here. I have 3 white boxers, they are pets, one is deaf. As a PET owner I don't care if my dogs are tartan to be honest. My responsibility is to make sure that my pets dont breed, they are healthy, have access to vet care, they are not a risk to the community, they are trained and socialised and kept safe. Personally I don't see the need to euthanase white boxers, the pup could be desexed before it is sold but this is the breeders choice based on experience and their ability to appropriately rehome. Putting them into rescue should never be an option, rescues are full of dogs people dont want. 2 of mine are rescued which includes the deaf one, the other from a breeder in NSW. We had to meet strict criteria to get our dog from a breeder and rightly so. Our deaf dog has been a steep learning curve in regard to management and training. Having a deaf dog or any special needs dog is not for everyone, it takes hard work, persistance and rethinking how you manage a dog. There are not many around who have the skills or knowledge to manage a deaf dog nor the patience to educate themselves to do it. Yes boxers have a slighly higher incidence of cancers, thats the breed, not because of the colour. Yes the white boxers are prone to sunburn, thats the same for any white dog. My views are purely personal and based on experience as a pet owner, I have 3 wonderful dogs, all have their quirks and that makes them more adorable. Gabby was battered, bred and starved before dumping, she is possible the most amazing dog I have ever had. Henry is a looney, he is spotty, has one blue eye and one blue/brown eye. He is a clown. Oliver was passed around not well socialised or trained, completely deaf. Reading this they are all misfits and I wouldnt have it any other way. I guess what I am saying is that dogs who don't fit into that "perfect" box are difficult to home and everything needs to be taken into consideration for their long term well being. Our dogs are lucky that they ended up in the right place, perhaps I am the lucky one!

Oh I like you

Thanks 3Amigos

[Steve]

can anyone shed any light on some previous posts about breeders who choose to raise white puppies and losing their breeder status ??

there are LOTS of white puppies advertised on DOL by registered breeders

PS: i own a white boxer i rescued from the pound, where i worked at the time, fantastic, sweet dog, but has multiple health issues

I don't believe that breeders lose their standing for raising white boxers anymore, it "wasn't done" in the past and I believe it USED to be that white boxers could not be registered, therefore you could theoretically lose your registered breeder status for selling unregistered dogs.

I did a bit of research on the ANKC site and there is no longer any restriction on registering non-standard colours on the limited register for any breed. It therefore is possible to register whites on the limited register only, which therefore means that boxer breeders will not risk their registration by selling whites as pets. Which of course totally answers my question about why whites can't be registered - these days they can!

PS, I got lovely boxer cuddles last night :)

What about White German Shepherds?

One assumes that the same applies - they can be registered on the limited register only, if the parents were main registered.

I think you will find if you do a bit more research you will find that not all state CC's accept white at all.

[StarsHollow]

It's all very confusing when there is not ONE blanket rule for the nation, especially for newbies

I contacted Dog's victoria regarding this issue and they referred me to regulations on ankc website

It's greatly appreciated to receive everyone's opinions and experiences !! Thanks...

can anyone shed any light on some previous posts about breeders who choose to raise white puppies and losing their breeder status ??

there are LOTS of white puppies advertised on DOL by registered breeders

PS: i own a white boxer i rescued from the pound, where i worked at the time, fantastic, sweet dog, but has multiple health issues

I don't believe that breeders lose their standing for raising white boxers anymore, it "wasn't done" in the past and I believe it USED to be that white boxers could not be registered, therefore you could theoretically lose your registered breeder status for selling unregistered dogs.

I did a bit of research on the ANKC site and there is no longer any restriction on registering non-standard colours on the limited register for any breed. It therefore is possible to register whites on the limited register only, which therefore means that boxer breeders will not risk their registration by selling whites as pets. Which of course totally answers my question about why whites can't be registered - these days they can!

PS, I got lovely boxer cuddles last night :)

What about White German Shepherds?

One assumes that the same applies - they can be registered on the limited register only, if the parents were main registered.

I think you will find if you do a bit more research you will find that not all state CC's accept white at all.

[mumsy]

Here is our beautiful white boxer. Bought from a reputable breeder in Vic.

Yes we have to watch him in the sun, but every morning in the warmer months, we put some sunscreen on him. Never been burned. He is no different to any other coloured boxer. When we went to look at the litter he was a gorgeous chunky monkey. The breeder call him Mr. Happy. Colour made no difference to us. I wouldn't trade him for the world. He certainly didn't deserve to be euthenised just because he was white.

[Dame Aussie]

Here is our beautiful white boxer. Bought from a reputable breeder in Vic.

Yes we have to watch him in the sun, but every morning in the warmer months, we put some sunscreen on him. Never been burned. He is no different to any other coloured boxer. When we went to look at the litter he was a gorgeous chunky monkey. The breeder call him Mr. Happy. Colour made no difference to us. I wouldn't trade him for the world. He certainly didn't deserve to be euthenised just because he was white.

He is BEAUTIFUL mumsy!

[StarsHollow]

Here is our beautiful white boxer. Bought from a reputable breeder in Vic.

Yes we have to watch him in the sun, but every morning in the warmer months, we put some sunscreen on him. Never been burned. He is no different to any other coloured boxer. When we went to look at the litter he was a gorgeous chunky monkey. The breeder call him Mr. Happy. Colour made no difference to us. I wouldn't trade him for the world. He certainly didn't deserve to be euthenised just because he was white.

Very cute !! we have a white boy too, the kids called him " chip " he has black spots on his skin, the kids said he was like a chocolate chip biscuit LOL !!

[GRD]

I did a bit of research on the ANKC site and there is no longer any restriction on registering non-standard colours on the limited register for any breed. It therefore is possible to register whites on the limited register only, which therefore means that boxer breeders will not risk their registration by selling whites as pets. Which of course totally answers my question about why whites can't be registered - these days they can!

The ANKC Regulations Part 6 The Register and Registration was not altered when the Allowable Colours listing was implemented, revised and repealled. Clause 6.2.4 still states - "The registration of White Boxers is NOT permitted on any register".

Graham

[LizT]

I did a bit of research on the ANKC site and there is no longer any restriction on registering non-standard colours on the limited register for any breed. It therefore is possible to register whites on the limited register only, which therefore means that boxer breeders will not risk their registration by selling whites as pets. Which of course totally answers my question about why whites can't be registered - these days they can!

The ANKC Regulations Part 6 The Register and Registration was not altered when the Allowable Colours listing was implemented, revised and repealled. Clause 6.2.4 still states - "The registration of White Boxers is NOT permitted on any register".

Graham

And I think you will find the same with the GSD. They simply WONT allow whites on the Register as it is "not recognised" is the term they like to use. And that decision is not even associated with any health concerns real or imagined.