Boxer Breeders Euthanising White Puppies

[Clemevi]

Thanks padraic and clemevi that's really good to know I'll be sure to remember that when the time comes.

What you really need to do is to start studying about genetics and breeding now, not "when the time comes". Coat colour is only one very small part of dog breeding. To do it ethically means you need to learn a lot about inherited traits. Otherwise you might end up with a lot worse health problems than deafness in your pups, and you will be responsible for that.

The word is speyed, not spaded.

There are hundreds of dogs that are euthanised each week, because they were unwanted by their owners. Don't take a chance of producing more problem dogs, learn as much as you can about dog breeding and then decide if it is right for you.

LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE!! My thoughts exactly!

Colour genetics are just the tip of a very steep and necessary learning curve if you want to breed any breed but so much in relation to Boxer specific problems too!

Health being a huge factor and testing (wish more people would ) or at least a good working knowledge of AS, SAS, PS, Cardiomyopathy, Degenerative Myelopathy, Spondylosis, Hyperthyroidism and you can add Juvenile Renal Dysplasia or Juvenile Kidney Disease (whatever you want to call it) into that as well now, thank god there is a DNA test for it!

Having detailed knowledge of the health history of the parents, G parents, GG parents as a start so you can build a good health heritage for your puppies to be.

I could go on, won't or I'll be here all day!

[Clemevi]

Hi Clemevi

I hope you didn't mind but my son has one of Mopar's gorgeous pups

Padraic

Hi Padraic

Which puppy does your son have? We had a get together a few months ago!! They are such great dogs!

Thanks

[nawnim]

...

Edited June 9, 2012 by padraic

[Guest Augustine Approved]

To answer two questions;

"There are hundreds of dogs that are euthanised each week, because they were unwanted by their owners. Don't take a chance of producing more problem dogs, learn as much as you can about dog breeding and then decide if it is right for you."

Thank you that is good advice. I have done many hours of volunteering at shelters and fostering. I have seen the aftermath of abuse and neglect first hand dozens of times and know the despair that comes with washing a dog, walking it, playing with it and feeding it only to watch it get taken away to be put to sleep. Augustine and I continue to contribute to a number of charities that help with medical bills and rehoming dogs. In January we turned down a major pet food distributor because they insisted that our food will be sold to all pet stores not just the ones that do not sell puppies. In short it's a cause that is close to my heart. I do get it and I will make the right decision when the time comes.

"Why are you breeding from a dog with such huge food issues that you created your own brand of dog food to combat these issues? Will you be advising your puppy buyers that your dog has huge food issues? Does Augustine's breeder know?"

The issues were caused by a bad diet and the proof is in the pooping. Just because a dog does not do well on kibble or canned food which her body is not designed to eat, does not mean that she is not fit for breeding. She comes from good bloodlines and you will be hard pressed to find a fitter and healthier boxer than Augustine. I have spoken to her breeder many times and when I told her about the commercial diets I used to feed her she looked at me with a face that implied, "What did you expect??". What I can tell you is that I have raised a fit boxer with a chemical free lifestyle. If I was looking for a puppy Augustine's litter would be my number one pick!

I have many months ahead of me to decide if she will definitely have a litter for the right reasons. Regardless, once I have a backyard again I will continue to foster as many dogs as I can. I won't be posting much anymore on the forum, thank you all for shedding light on this and other topics, I really do appreciate your input.

[Nekhbet]

The issues were caused by a bad diet and the proof is in the pooping. Just because a dog does not do well on kibble or canned food which her body is not designed to eat, does not mean that she is not fit for breeding. She comes from good bloodlines and you will be hard pressed to find a fitter and healthier boxer than Augustine. I have spoken to her breeder many times and when I told her about the commercial diets I used to feed her she looked at me with a face that implied, "What did you expect??". What I can tell you is that I have raised a fit boxer with a chemical free lifestyle. If I was looking for a puppy Augustine's litter would be my number one pick!

So Augustine has also passed all her other relevent health tests for the breed? And you're a registered breeder or having someone breed her under a prefix?

If your dogs digestion is that sensitive that no food on the market is suitable you shouldnt be breeding. This has nothing to do with your brand of food, I commend you for creating something that the market desperately needs. But a dog that has little dietary resilience should not become a mother.

[Guest Augustine Approved]

She hasn't passed any relevant health checks for breeding yet because I am a long way away from breeding her. This thread was started because of a general question I had about putting white pups to sleep. I am not a registered breeder and up until hearing about the white pup issue I was planning on becoming a registered breeder. IF I breed her and IF she has white pups then I would rather deregister and keep them.

To say that I tried every dog food on the market would be false. It's impossible to do so however what I did state was that I spared no expense. It is now more the case that knowing what I know now I would not be happy to feed her commercial foods.

Nehkbet you raise a fair point about dietary resilience. It is a hard thing to judge and I will discuss this with the relevant expert vet when the time comes. Wether or not she is fit to become a mother is up to the vet as I would never risk her health or her pups. All I can say is that she is super fit and healthy.

I am glad you appreciate the need for good food on the market and by no means is it just for dogs with problems.

[Nekhbet]

becoming a registered breeder takes a couple of years, you cannot apply for a prefix in Vic unless you have been a DogsVic member for 12 months, then you need to pass the relevent tests to get your kennel name. Most health checks you can do between 18 months and 2 years. If your breeder was registered and Augustine is main registered they should be able to help you in becoming registered and finding you a good stud dog to breed with, as well as help you through the process. If Augustine is not main registered you wont have any chance of using pedigree papered stud dogs or registering her puppies which is another consideration for their future. Be wary of some vets though as they have no qualms in telling you to breed your dog as long as she's somewhat standing upright and 'has a good nature'.

As for her dietary problems and lack of thrift it would be worth looking into - I don't know what you were feeding before, but were you just feeding the absolute worst on the market or was she just allergic to a major component? Digestive sensitivities can also make life more difficult when a dog is under stress - and a great stress is when pregnant and feeding pups for some dogs. The consideration can be; will her digestive troubles return under hormonal stress and although she looks good now, can her body be resilient enough to support the burden of growing puppies.

Yup one thing I do know is what many consider a 'good' diet for a dog here in australia is absolute rubbish. The proliferation of marketing by big companies has not helped the process. I work in a store that sells stock feeds as well as pet foods and honestly most dog foods, especially budget, have ingredients comparable to chicken feed. I cringe when people say just give me the cheapest.

[Missymoo]

So why then do we have White Shepherds, who were once German Shepherds now with a different name, also the West Highland Whites, were once Cairn Terriers. Nothing wrong with these white breeds. Not every white dog is going to be deaf, same as every white cat is not deaf. If it is only being done to conform to breed standards for showing, why cull otherwise perfectly healthy white pups, whose only crime in life is to be born white. Just my opinion.

Westies and Cairn terriers are two different breeds....sorry, that sounds like I'm being mean, not meant to, I just wasn't sure if you knew that...

OT: but sorry willow, it's true ;)

From wiki:

"[edit]History

Three Pittenweem Terriers, photographed in 1899

Scottish white terriers were recorded as early as during the reign of James I of England (VI of Scotland), who reigned between 1567 and 1625. The king ordered that a dozen terriers be procured from Argyll to be presented to the Kingdom of France as a gift.[1] Sandy and brindle coloured dogs were seen as hardier than those of other colours, and white dogs were seen as being weak.[2] At various times during the breed's existence, it has been considered a white offshoot of both the Scottish Terrier and the Cairn Terrier breeds.[3] "

[Esky the husky]

Augustine, you shouldn't end up with any white puppies if you breed to a solid male.

Somebody posted a link about that a few pages back.

So just limit your stud search to solid males :)

[Guest Willow]

So why then do we have White Shepherds, who were once German Shepherds now with a different name, also the West Highland Whites, were once Cairn Terriers. Nothing wrong with these white breeds. Not every white dog is going to be deaf, same as every white cat is not deaf. If it is only being done to conform to breed standards for showing, why cull otherwise perfectly healthy white pups, whose only crime in life is to be born white. Just my opinion.

Westies and Cairn terriers are two different breeds....sorry, that sounds like I'm being mean, not meant to, I just wasn't sure if you knew that...

OT: but sorry willow, it's true ;)

From wiki:

"[edit]History

Three Pittenweem Terriers, photographed in 1899

Scottish white terriers were recorded as early as during the reign of James I of England (VI of Scotland), who reigned between 1567 and 1625. The king ordered that a dozen terriers be procured from Argyll to be presented to the Kingdom of France as a gift.[1] Sandy and brindle coloured dogs were seen as hardier than those of other colours, and white dogs were seen as being weak.[2] At various times during the breed's existence, it has been considered a white offshoot of both the Scottish Terrier and the Cairn Terrier breeds.[3] "

then i apologise and take it back!!!!! You learn something new every day!!!!!

[Jumabaar]

Thanks everyone for their feedback, my eyes are certainly open a lot wider.

I will breed Augustine in about 10 months when I move into the new place with a big yard. If she does have white puppies I will gladly raise them (spaded), deaf or not I am happy to take on that responsibility and put in the hours and possibly vet bills. If that means that I cannot be a registered breeder then so be it. While I can appreciate some of the reasons why people euthanise white boxers I can't do it.

Some of the most well behaved gorgeous boxers I have met have been white and if the circumstances allow then they deserve a chance like all other puppies.

Just letting you know it took me 3 years to decide on a stud to use over my bitch for her last litter!!!! I had to go through genetics and what the different lines strengths/weaknesses were and then think about what I wanted to achieve and what my bitches strengths and weaknesses are. You will find the months fly- you might think you have heaps of time but you might be surprised when you look at everything you need to consider that you might be cutting everything a little fine.

I also agree with Nekhbet- what if Augustine's pups also need a specific diet? Is it fair to expect your puppy buyers to put in as much time and effort to keep their dogs healthy? You might be better off starting with a tougher foundation bitch so your lines are strong from the get go- instead of trying to fix any dietary intolerances while still trying to keep all the other health conditions under control.

[Mystiqview]

I agree with the others re genetic study on what your dog is carrying.

Just because it comes from what you perceive is a good pedigree and her breeder claims is a good pedigree, may not be in truth the complete case. How many times do you read or even see in the classifieds (even on DOL) "Excellent pedigree". Upon closer inspection, when you look at some of those pedigrees and you know what is actually behind some of those "prominent" dogs, there are health issues waiting to surface and are quite serious.

Breeders will not be open and forthcoming in telling you what is behind the lines. You need to not only look at direct parents/grandparents but cousins and step cousins. White puppies may be the least of your worries. As another boxer breeder pointed out, you can alleviate this by breeding to a solid colour rather than a flashy colour. And maybe for your first litter this will be the best course of action to go. It lets you chew the fat and minimises the risk of at least one known problem. The last thing you want to be known for on your first litter is breeding a litter of white or unhealthy puppies. Do this, and you may find doors will shut for future stud or ownership with the prominent breeders. It is a very fine balance.

There are a lot of new registered breeders coming onto the scene. In my breed I can safely say, there are not enough who are prepared to do the research into lines, pedigrees or spend the time finding out what is behind their dogs. They claim to have excellent breeding, not knowing any better and believing the somewhat tale told by the breeder who they bought their dog from. Just because a person may be the breed for 10 or 20 years, does not necessarily make them ethical, good or anything else. They may be big into showing or something, but that does not always make them the best breeder in the world. A show champion can be attained through a series of 6 point "show up" challenge points in out of the way shows.

You are right, there are enough dogs being put to sleep because of bad breeders and bad owners. I myself have put to sleep puppies at 3 days, 3 weeks and one even at 12 months because I was duped by a bad owner. I managed to rescue it back, but the damage was done. I could have rehomed that dog, but in all honesty, it would probably have ended back up in a pound and be carelessly put to sleep and dumped. (I know how pounds work, I have worked in one as a council employee). I have had fading puppies who I have had to supplement every hour who have died at 3 days. I had one puppy which I revived at birth, to put down at 3 weeks due what was suspected a brain issue, maybe from lack of oxygen from birth. Sometimes it is better to put to sleep early, than putting out there a possible defective puppy which you can and possibly WILL be sued for. (Don't laugh - it has already happened in my breed).

Breeding is hard. Hard choices are sometimes made, sometimes for the better of the litter and sometimes for the better of the overall breed. It is great the rescuers what to rescue everything that is put out there, but sometimes, sorry to say putting to sleep is sometimes the best thing for the dog. As for BAER testing, I have BAER tested one litter of pups where I had half white faces (no deafness thankfully). Even in Brisbane, there is only one place that has the machine. Those who live outside of Brisbane, have harder times getting their puppies BAER tested.

In some breeds, like Aussie Shepherds, where merle to merle matings are permissible. You get deaf blind puppies and also kinked tails and I have seen even piggy tails. I know breeders who have put down the deaf/blind puppies, and they do not find it an easy or pleasant choice. But still do it. With the taildocking, it is now hard to dock the tails of the natural bob tailed animals who have kinked or twisted tails. It can be done, but trying to find a vet who is willing to do it "not for cosmetic" but for the betterment of the dog is hard. (The dog is only done at the kink to remove the kink if severe enough).

I agree with the others. If your dog has a dietary issue, and while you have formulated a food that gives her relief, she is probably not the best bitch to start your foundation on. Genetically, she already has an issue, so you are already started behind the 8 ball. That is providing, she passes the rest of her health screening tests. Recent documentaries did not show the boxer in a positive light. Why breed from an inferior dog? She may have the best pedigree in the world, but still suffering from genetic issues that should not be propagated from.

I think in Victoria, and other breeders from there would be able to confirm this, you cannot breed from a dog with a known genetic issue?? Something to do with legislation?? I am sure there are many who will and do get around this (as in my breed), but with the way the climate is going on sound breeding practices, I would be striving to produce the best there is possible.

[LizT]

I haven't read all this thread so if it's been mentioned my apologies. But I do believe that many Dalmations are born either deaf in one ear (unilateral) or totally deaf. And that the deaf puppies are PTS at 6 weeks of age, once testing has confirmed total deafness. Apparently only about 30% of Dalmations have hearing in both ears.

[espinay2]

I haven't read all this thread so if it's been mentioned my apologies. But I do believe that many Dalmations are born either deaf in one ear (unilateral) or totally deaf. And that the deaf puppies are PTS at 6 weeks of age, once testing has confirmed total deafness. Apparently only about 30% of Dalmations have hearing in both ears.

Sorry, but can you provide a reference for that figure?

Some figures from America = 10% bilateral deafness + 20% unilateral so the opposite to what you claim.

http://www.auburn.ed...dalmatians.html

Though some other references give the numbers as 8% and 22% respectively.

Thus these figures give 30% with some level of deafness, NOT the other way around.

Note also however, that in Australia we do not accept blue eyes in the Dalmatian standard, which they do in the US.

Dalmatians with blue eyes are at a higher risk of hearing loss and prevalence of deafness is higher in populations where blue eyes occur: http://www.lancedal....lth/gstrain.htm

Thus the percentage of deafness in Australian Dalmatians will be even lower than these figures from America - something that is supported by anecdotal evidence from breeders.

Edited March 27, 2012 by espinay2

[The Spotted Devil]

I haven't read all this thread so if it's been mentioned my apologies. But I do believe that many Dalmations are born either deaf in one ear (unilateral) or totally deaf. And that the deaf puppies are PTS at 6 weeks of age, once testing has confirmed total deafness. Apparently only about 30% of Dalmations have hearing in both ears.

That is incorrect.

Estimates range from 10%-30% in the US that are deaf although it's not clear whether unilateral and bilateral dogs are included. The AKC standard allows for blue eyes whereas the ANKC standard does not. Blue eyes are associated with deafness. I expect the % of deaf Dalmatians to be lower in Australia. There is a lot of pressure on breeders to BAER test and a number have consistently good results over many generations. The breed clubs also advocate on behalf of members to vets to buy the equipment and offer the service at a decent price.

ETA: Yes, members of breed clubs are not permitted to sell bilaterally deaf puppies.

Edited March 27, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[LizT]

I haven't read all this thread so if it's been mentioned my apologies. But I do believe that many Dalmations are born either deaf in one ear (unilateral) or totally deaf. And that the deaf puppies are PTS at 6 weeks of age, once testing has confirmed total deafness. Apparently only about 30% of Dalmations have hearing in both ears.

Sorry, but can you provide a reference for that figure?

Some figures from America = 10% bilateral deafness + 20% unilateral so the opposite to what you claim.

http://www.auburn.ed...dalmatians.html

Though some other references give the numbers as 8% and 22% respectively.

Thus these figures give 30% with some level of deafness, NOT the other way around.

Note also however, that in Australia we do not accept blue eyes in the Dalmatian standard, which they do in the US.

Dalmatians with blue eyes are at a higher risk of hearing loss and prevalence of deafness is higher in populations where blue eyes occur: http://www.lancedal....lth/gstrain.htm

Thus the percentage of deafness in Australian Dalmatians will be even lower than these figures from America - something that is supported by anecdotal evidence from breeders.

I haven't read all this thread so if it's been mentioned my apologies. But I do believe that many Dalmations are born either deaf in one ear (unilateral) or totally deaf. And that the deaf puppies are PTS at 6 weeks of age, once testing has confirmed total deafness. Apparently only about 30% of Dalmations have hearing in both ears.

That is incorrect.

Estimates range from 10%-30% in the US that are deaf although it's not clear whether unilateral and bilateral dogs are included. The AKC standard allows for blue eyes whereas the ANKC standard does not. Blue eyes are associated with deafness. I expect the % of deaf Dalmatians to be lower in Australia. There is a lot of pressure on breeders to BAER test and a number have consistently good results over many generations. The breed clubs also advocate on behalf of members to vets to buy the equipment and offer the service at a decent price.

ETA: Yes, members of breed clubs are not permitted to sell bilaterally deaf puppies.

My apologies I got it arse about. 30% of puppies born are deaf in either one or both ears.

I do hope the percentage of both ears deafness level is low. It seems all breeds will have some issue, it's a constant battle for those who care.

[Bartok]

Ultimately the decision lies with the breeder the same as the decision to euthanise oops crossbreds or some of a very large litter in breeds that are hard to sell. These are some of the tough decisions breeders have to make depending on how likely the puppies are to get good homes, not just any homes.

Yes, that's why topics like this are important to discuss, even though they can get emotive. Nobody wants to put down puppies they have bred.

Looking from another point of view, why would a person choose to buy a pet of higher health risk than its littermates? You would hope that puppy buyers want their dogs to have as long and comfortable lives as possible and would want to buy from breeders that felt that supplying only healthy, quality pups to puppy buyers was an important part of their breeding ethic.

i thought I read earlier that registered breeders werent allowed to sell theit white pups.

So give them to a rescue organisation. There is always deaf dogs going through the rescue world and all manage to find homes.

If they are desexed, chipped, vaccinated and well versed in deaf dog care then i see that as a good thing.

[The Spotted Devil]

No worries LizT :) The mode of inheritance in Dalmatians is not clear although it is definitely pigment related. I know of one breeder in particular who consistently breeds from bilateral hearing dogs and has had incredibly good BAER results that even astounded the vet. I think they have had one unilaterally deaf pup over a number of litters, which would do perfectly well in a pet home. So it annoyed the hell out of me when I saw a Dally breeder in the UK on the PDE docco talking about her wonderful show/breeding dog who was unilaterally deaf. It doesn't help the breed in any way, shape or form.

[Bartok]

This is Mia - she is 11mths old and I recently saved and rehomed her.

Apparently both parents were white boxers but there was also a male

American bulldog there. Obviously BYB

Her adoption fee for her new family was $150 - It covered a vaccination and desexing through

a vet that helps with rescue dogs.

We had her checked for deafness but her new family had already said that deafness

wasnt an issue

She is happy and loving and outgoing. She will need to stay out of the sun especially in

summer but she deserves to have a good life for as long as she is on the earth.

We dont know the lifespan of any animal or person. Why prematurely kill something because it

"might" get something?

[Mystiqview]

This is Mia - she is 11mths old and I recently saved and rehomed her.

Apparently both parents were white boxers

If some of the statistics of what has been posted up here already by those in the breed are true, then it is good Mia is not deaf and good on you for rescuing her.

But.....

Why breed from something that is recorded and known to produce issues? That is a little irresponsible??

Why breed from something that increases the likelihood of producing issues? Shouldn't you be breeding to LESSEN the likelihood?

Boxers are not my breed, however deafness does occur in border collies and is also related to the white gene and white factoring. Why breed from two dogs knowingly carrying excess white to produce the potential of blind/deaf puppies?

Why put out there the burden on someone else to look after a problem that could have been avoided in the outset?