Dame Aussie Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) I'm not going to judge people for doing what they think is best, but I will say that if I were a breeder and had white pups (which had a chance of being deaf) I would not PTS. I would either keep or give away to good homes, whatever I could not give away I would keep. If that meant lots of dogs and I couldn't breed more, then so be it. Edited March 24, 2012 by Aussie3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Pure curiosity...why does a lack of pigment in the ear lead to deafness??? My basic biology knowlegde isn't helping me understand the link. Here are a couple of explanations. The deafness, which usually develops in the first few weeks after birth while the ear canal is still closed, usually results from the degeneration of part of the blood supply to the cochlea (the stria vascularis). The nerve cells of the cochlea subsequently die and permanent deafness results. The cause of the vascular degeneration is not known, but appears to be associated with the absence of pigment producing cells (melanocytes) in the blood vessels. All of the function of these cells are not known, but one role is to maintain high potassium concentrations in the fluid (endolymph) surrounding the hair cells of the cochlea; these pigment cells are critical for survival of the stria. From http://www.lsu.edu/d...ss/genetics.htm Cochlear melanocytes have functions against oxidative stress. Both the existence and pigmentation of cochlear melanocytes are closely associated with the expression of different GST isoforms in the cochlea. Gsta expression has an essential function against oxidative stress in the cochlea, related to the existence of cochlear melanocytes, and is a specific function of cochlear melanocytes. Gstp expression is related to the pigmentation of cochlear melanocytes, and is a common function in cutaneous and cochlear melanocytes. From IPPC 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsKatie Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 My brother imported a white boxer from a breeder in NZ - he has to put sunscreen on him and he has to put 'doggles' - dog goggles - on him on sunny days because of his blue eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemevi Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I have attached a photo of a white boxer. Hi This is my picture of Mopar the white male I rescued, not sure where you got this from padraic. He was bred to a plain bitch and then they were both dumped. There were 9 puppies in the litter, I raised them. There seems to be a lot of "old wives tales" being dredged up in this thread! So here are some facts: White boxers cannot be registered Most white boxers are placed at a reduced cost, there is no need to euthanize them! White boxers are not any different to their plain or flashy litter mates White boxers are not unhealthy They are not a throw back to the bulldog They are a mismarked boxer White boxers can occasionally be deaf as addressed with the ear canal pigment issue In most litters the amount of white puppies or mismarked is generally around 25%. This is due to the fact that breeders and judges all favor the "flashy" puppies and they are the ones generally bred from. In a mating that is flashy to flashy you would expect to get 25% white puppies, that is a breeders choice and they should be well aware of this by choosing that mating. They could use a plain stud or a plain female and totally remove that option. In that mating there would only be plain and flashy puppies. A genetically plain dog/bitch cannot produce a white puppy as they do not carry the gene. The onus is on the breeders, if you are going to have to put down 25% of your litter because "it's the right thing to do" you need to rethink your ethics as it's not necessary to even produce them if you don't want to! Here is a good explanation on colour genetics in Boxers: http://www.newcastleboxers.com/inheritance.shtml In Germany the mother country of our breed there has been a lot of discussion about removing the ban on white boxers so that they can be bred and shown. Obviously responsible and ethical breeders would carry out hearing tests on their dogs. I don't see a problem with it at all. All boxer are prone to Cancer certainly not just white ones, I have only met 1 white boxer with a skin cancer as generally the white boxers have pigment spots under their coat. I have attached a picture of Mopar when I first received him and then 10 days later, he is a deaf boxer. Look at the 10 day pic and the few sparse pigment spots on his coat and also another while female I rescued called Berger, look at the pigment under her coat...think she will have a problem with skin cancer? It's and individual problem just like any other dog and cancer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemevi Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I have attached a photo of a white boxer. Hi This is my picture of Mopar the white male I rescued, not sure where you got this from padraic. He was bred to a plain bitch and then they were both dumped. There were 9 puppies in the litter, I raised them. There seems to be a lot of "old wives tales" being dredged up in this thread! So here are some facts: White boxers cannot be registered Most white boxers are placed at a reduced cost, there is no need to euthanize them! White boxers are not any different to their plain or flashy litter mates White boxers are not unhealthy They are not a throw back to the bulldog They are a mismarked boxer White boxers can occasionally be deaf as addressed with the ear canal pigment issue In most litters the amount of white puppies or mismarked is generally around 25%. This is due to the fact that breeders and judges all favor the "flashy" puppies and they are the ones generally bred from. In a mating that is flashy to flashy you would expect to get 25% white puppies, that is a breeders choice and they should be well aware of this by choosing that mating. They could use a plain stud or a plain female and totally remove that option. In that mating there would only be plain and flashy puppies. A genetically plain dog/bitch cannot produce a white puppy as they do not carry the gene. The onus is on the breeders, if you are going to have to put down 25% of your litter because "it's the right thing to do" you need to rethink your ethics as it's not necessary to even produce them if you don't want to! Here is a good explanation on colour genetics in Boxers: http://www.newcastleboxers.com/inheritance.shtml In Germany the mother country of our breed there has been a lot of discussion about removing the ban on white boxers so that they can be bred and shown. Obviously responsible and ethical breeders would carry out hearing tests on their dogs. I don't see a problem with it at all. All boxer are prone to Cancer certainly not just white ones, I have only met 1 white boxer with a skin cancer as generally the white boxers have pigment spots under their coat. I have attached a picture of Mopar when I first received him and then 10 days later, he is a deaf boxer. Look at the 10 day pic and the few sparse pigment spots on his coat and also another while female I rescued called Berger, look at the pigment under her coat...think she will have a problem with skin cancer? It's and individual problem just like any other dog and cancer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I've always wondered how I'd go training a deaf dog. Of the three dogs I've owned (none deaf), they are very good following hand signals and not so good with the voice commands. I think somewhere down the line I'd like to try but only when I don't have other dogs requiring my attention too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flame ryder Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 My brother imported a white boxer from a breeder in NZ - he has to put sunscreen on him and he has to put 'doggles' - dog goggles - on him on sunny days because of his blue eye I know it's slightly off topic and I'm no expert either...but...the boxer in this pic looks a little strange, like his face is just not squishy enough to be a pure boxer. Also in regard to white boxers there are a few people in this part of SA that think it's a good idea to breed a white and a white together...I dunno if the pups would have any issues but these pups are backyard bred and they ask around $800 each for the puppies. When I was looking for a boxer puppy I saw plenty of white ones from registered breeders for way less than that. Just wondering about deaf dogs too...not just white dogs but any deaf dogs, I imagine they would be incredibly challenging to train. Imagine them running towards a main road or some other threat and no re-call argh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinabean Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Wow Clemevi, what a difference after just 10 days in your care! Mopar looks like a different dog. :) And from what I know, deaf dogs are often homed with people who already have a well-trained dog. They act as the 'ears' for a deaf dog, who can follow their lead as far as recall etc. goes. Hand signals are also good. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemevi Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Wow Clemevi, what a difference after just 10 days in your care! Mopar looks like a different dog. :) And from what I know, deaf dogs are often homed with people who already have a well-trained dog. They act as the 'ears' for a deaf dog, who can follow their lead as far as recall etc. goes. Hand signals are also good. :D Aww thanks!! He's a good boy!! He is in a wonderful home with a family who love him to bits and have trained him through signs! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flame ryder Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Wow Clemevi, what a difference after just 10 days in your care! Mopar looks like a different dog. :) And from what I know, deaf dogs are often homed with people who already have a well-trained dog. They act as the 'ears' for a deaf dog, who can follow their lead as far as recall etc. goes. Hand signals are also good. :D This works with hearing dogs too lol...I have 1 dog with excellent recall the other 2 have selective hearing but luckily will follow her. Her re-call is amazing...she can be in full flight off after a kangaroo and we'll call her and she'll turn on a dime, dust flying and come to us. Sorry getting completely off topic...my bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polgara's Shadow Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 The deafness, which usually develops in the first few weeks after birth while the ear canal is still closed, usually results from the degeneration of part of the blood supply to the cochlea (the stria vascularis). The nerve cells of the cochlea subsequently die and permanent deafness results. The cause of the vascular degeneration is not known, but appears to be associated with the absence of pigment producing cells (melanocytes) in the blood vessels. All of the function of these cells are not known, but one role is to maintain high potassium concentrations in the fluid (endolymph) surrounding the hair cells of the cochlea; these pigment cells are critical for survival of the stria. From http://www.lsu.edu/d...ss/genetics.htm Huh.. how fascinating. Its especially curious that (according to your source) the deafness occurs after birth. There's so much we don't know about how living things work. Thanks for the info :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 We have a deaf Border Collie in care at our rescue - I can definitely confirm that trying to train a deaf pup can have it's challenges... *grin*... but so far, he's doing quite well. As for recall issues - as with any dog that doesn't come when called, a long lead is a godsend... and then one can also invest in a vibration collar... This is Timmy... Personally though, I wouldn't breed anything that has a high chance of producing any kind of disability in the pups. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 We have a deaf Border Collie in care at our rescue - I can definitely confirm that trying to train a deaf pup can have it's challenges... *grin*... but so far, he's doing quite well. As for recall issues - as with any dog that doesn't come when called, a long lead is a godsend... and then one can also invest in a vibration collar... This is Timmy... Personally though, I wouldn't breed anything that has a high chance of producing any kind of disability in the pups. T. Oh he's gorgeous T!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nawnim Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) ... Edited June 9, 2012 by padraic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Augustine Approved Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks everyone for their feedback, my eyes are certainly open a lot wider. I will breed Augustine in about 10 months when I move into the new place with a big yard. If she does have white puppies I will gladly raise them (spaded), deaf or not I am happy to take on that responsibility and put in the hours and possibly vet bills. If that means that I cannot be a registered breeder then so be it. While I can appreciate some of the reasons why people euthanise white boxers I can't do it. Some of the most well behaved gorgeous boxers I have met have been white and if the circumstances allow then they deserve a chance like all other puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nawnim Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) ... Edited June 9, 2012 by padraic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willow Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 So why then do we have White Shepherds, who were once German Shepherds now with a different name, also the West Highland Whites, were once Cairn Terriers. Nothing wrong with these white breeds. Not every white dog is going to be deaf, same as every white cat is not deaf. If it is only being done to conform to breed standards for showing, why cull otherwise perfectly healthy white pups, whose only crime in life is to be born white. Just my opinion. Westies and Cairn terriers are two different breeds....sorry, that sounds like I'm being mean, not meant to, I just wasn't sure if you knew that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Augustine Approved Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks padraic and clemevi that's really good to know I'll be sure to remember that when the time comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks padraic and clemevi that's really good to know I'll be sure to remember that when the time comes. What you really need to do is to start studying about genetics and breeding now, not "when the time comes". Coat colour is only one very small part of dog breeding. To do it ethically means you need to learn a lot about inherited traits. Otherwise you might end up with a lot worse health problems than deafness in your pups, and you will be responsible for that. The word is speyed, not spaded. There are hundreds of dogs that are euthanised each week, because they were unwanted by their owners. Don't take a chance of producing more problem dogs, learn as much as you can about dog breeding and then decide if it is right for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks everyone for their feedback, my eyes are certainly open a lot wider. I will breed Augustine in about 10 months when I move into the new place with a big yard. If she does have white puppies I will gladly raise them (spaded), deaf or not I am happy to take on that responsibility and put in the hours and possibly vet bills. If that means that I cannot be a registered breeder then so be it. While I can appreciate some of the reasons why people euthanise white boxers I can't do it. Some of the most well behaved gorgeous boxers I have met have been white and if the circumstances allow then they deserve a chance like all other puppies. Why are you breeding from a dog with such huge food issues that you created your own brand of dog food to combat these issues? Will you be advising your puppy buyers that your dog has huge food issues? Does Augustine's breeder know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now