Sage - Needing Some Advice

[Cheyd]

Haven't received an email as yet so if you have sent it, would be good to re-send. :)

Sorry have sent another email now

[harley]

Hi, how are things with Sage going?

[Cheyd]

Hi, how are things with Sage going?

We have an assessment for Sage on Saturday, so hopefully we will have some answers then

We have started one of the exercises that Cosmolo so kindly sent, early days yet only been doing it for two nights

I will update again after the assessment

[harley]

Best of luck, you are giving her the best chance she has! :)

[Cheyd]

Well we had an appointment today for a controlled introduction for Sage. The test involved having Sage on a long lead in an enclosed yard, fences were only waist height wire fences with a gate at one corner and a concrete tunnel up the back of the run. Once Sage had a look around and the trainer had me clip her on the long lead they slowly introduced a dog coming towards the yard to see her reactions. Sages arousal was immediate and complete, there was no warning. She would run the fence, hackles aroused, growling, stiff posture, there was no self regulation or reduction of her arousal. There was a couple of moments that the trainer was concerned for sage jumping or rushing the fence and afterwards during our chat she mentioned that she would have been extremely concerned for her own safety had she had Sage on a short leash.

They removed the test dog and again Sage did not lower her arousal. The test dogs handler mentioned that this dog did not want to go near the fence at all and this dog is used to fence runners aand usually shows no reaction.

The test dog was brought back out and as soon as Sage saw it her arousal was up again and she kept making runs at the fence and if allowed would have jumped it.

The test was videoed and there was also another trainer there observing. Once we sat down and discussed what had gone on, we were told that Sage had no social skills at all, she showed full arousal and lack of her own ability to regulate or slow down/cool off that they expected to see, this was described as deeply entrenched behaviour. If we were/are to re home her there would have to be "100% Compliance at all times" in her life and training. They did say some of her behaviour shown was similar to dogs that had been tethered or tied up for a long time, as we don't know her full history this may have been how she was raised prior to being in the pound and may have contributed to her not being socialised as a pup.

This trainer only reports on their observations and does not make recommendations for action. We did ask the question that if she was assessing Sage to be accepted into a rescue for rehoming what would she suggest to the rescue, and that was - she would not be a suitable dog.

So it is a very specific home we need to find if we can - does anyone have any ideas please?

[Guest Ams]

There is really no way to sugar coat my answer. I would pts.

[Cheyd]

There is really no way to sugar coat my answer. I would pts.

To be honest that is our thoughts also and if nothing changes we will take care of it Wed

I have been wracking my brains trying to think of the perfect home for her and how we could find it but I can't come up with anything

[Cosmolo]

Sorry the assessment did not go better. Was it Kathy that you saw?

[Cheyd]

Sorry the assessment did not go better. Was it Kathy that you saw?

No it wasn't, this opportunity came up this week, quicker than Kathy could see us. I am confident in this persons qualifications and ability.

I have thought about still seeing Kathy but there has been advice now from two trainers along the same vein

[harley]

I am sorry the outcome was not what you or us desired

Such a hard place to be in and I wish you all the best with whatever you decide.

[tdierikx]

I've personally seen Sage in a pack situation... and she had pups at the time to boot. I even had all of the dogs (including Sage) milling about me while doling out treats - which can sometimes lead to tears if the pack isn't well balanced. Sage appeared to know her place in the pack and was only reactive to one dog, who tried to push her constantly - her reaction was not overtly aggressive in that case, more of a wrestling and argy bargy thing with no teeth from either dog. She played well with everyone else, human AND canine.

If you can afford it both time and money wise, can Kathy have a look at Sage? If she says that Sage is not "redeemable" at this point, then I would say 3 for 3, and do the right thing for Sage (pts).

If I had not seen and handled Sage myself in the above scenario, I'd be with everyone else and advising pts now...

You have my complete support no matter what you decide for Sage.

T.

[twodoggies2001]

I'm not an expert in this field by any means, but the response from tdierikx got me thinking. Years ago we had a standard schnauzer and until we were 100% sure of his recall at the park, he was walked on a leash. There are always joggers going around the paths and whilst on leash he would, without fail attempt to lunge. Once he was allowed off leash, (in a off leash area) he would ignore any jogger that went by. I am just wondering if Sage reacted like she did because of the restriction of the leash.

[tdierikx]

The problem is finding a safe area where Sage can be allowed off lead in the general vicinity of other dogs - just in case her issues are not lead related and she needs to be quickly corrected or stopped from engaging in undesirable behaviour. No-one is going to offer up their own dog as an off lead test subject for a dog that displays aggression or extreme excitability on lead as described by Holly's Mummy.

I know that my own dogs are somewhat more reactive when on lead, but a soft tug on the lead or a word from me can correct that... what is happening with Sage seems to have gone quite a bit past that stage though, as she doesn't appear to be able to be corrected fully when she gets into her "zone" of inappropriate behaviour.

Sage's previous foster home had a large pack of dogs most of whom were somewhat larger than Sage, and had been exposed to many other fosters over the years - the regular pack were well conditioned to new dogs being introduced on a regular basis, and as such did not react unfavourably to initial unsettled behaviour from the newcomers - and the newcomers invariably just settle in and become part of the pack just fine. Holly's Mummy's situation is a bit different...

T.

Edited March 31, 2012 by tdierikx

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

With a dog like this, unless you are prepared to keep her yourself, it would seem a highly risky rehoming. Someone who is truly going to be able to be 100% on guard and responsible all the time hardly ever comes along.

I spoke to a lady last week who'd rescued a staffy cross who turned out to be dog aggressive. She said she was very careful and never let her off the lead but she still managed to attack 3 dogs at different times. I asked how this had happened.

Once the front door hadn't been closed properly and the dog saw a man walking his dogs by and was determined to get at them and got out the front door. The second time she had been walking the dog and it had gotten out of its collar through struggling so hard when seeing another dog. She then got a different collar.

She was in a park having a picnic with the dog tied to a fence when it saw a whippet and fought so hard to get at the other dog that she snapped the lead. The whippet nearly died and the staffy cross's owner had a vet bill of a $1000.

At that point, she decided to put the dog to sleep and thought long and hard about getting a dog again after such a terrible experience. She loved her dog but simply couldn't cope with the aggression any more and obviously, in spite of what she thought were her best efforts, the dog was strong and determined and most likely the problems would have continued.

It is not at all easy to deal with a large powerful and aggressive dog and it puts other people and their animals at risk.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

oops, double post

Edited March 31, 2012 by dogmad

[tdierikx]

With respect dogmad... if I hadn't personally seen this actual dog interacting perfectly fine and normal in a multi dog home, I'd be agreeing with your advice here... but the truth is that I KNOW that she has lived and can live with other dogs without incident.

I just hope that Holly's Mummy can stretch to an assessment by Kathy before making any decisions based on people's opinions on an internet forum. If a highly regarded and recommended behaviourist feels that Sage needs to be given her wings, then at least all options have been explored, and Holly's Mummy won't have any "what if's" after the fact.

Holly's Mummy - you are doing everything you can for Sage, and none of us are in your position - you have my respect and support no matter what the outcome for Sage, OK?

T.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

With respect T, this is a very challenging situation. I feel for Holly's Mum but the fact is Sage currently does live with other dogs but can't be mixed as apparently it is too risky. Two experienced dog people have said she is not suitable for rehoming. Maybe if it was the neighbour who'd only owned one dog it would def. be worth questioning.

Sage might have lived with other dogs but could still pose a risk to dogs she doesn't know and that's why I have quoted the lady I spoke to this week because in reality, when we rehome, we are rehomign to normal people who "do their best" but in some cases it isn't enough to prevent a disaster.

Edited March 31, 2012 by dogmad

[Cheyd]

T, thank you for your balanced replies. I have barely slept last night thinking about this.

You are so right T that Sage has successfully been in a pack before. But she has now jumped the fence and attacked a small dog - after seeing the owner we found out Sage did grab one of the dogs by the neck and she had to whack Sage with a big stick and call out for help to get Sage of him. They did not find any marks on the dog but he is apparently terrified to walks past our house. What if she gets out again? We have fixed the gate but still we didn't rwalise she had jumped before

I wish we had the same dynamics here and that Sage could have been part of our pack, I really do

The test yesterday was, although on a long lead, this was so Sage had no interference from humans while being tested, but they needed a way to control her if she did get uncontrollable so although she was on a lead she did not feel it unless she went to the end of it.

Both trainers who have seen Sage have many many years in training dogs and working in dog rescues. I know my trainer has studied canine behaviour but i don't know what the qualifications are (ie: what letters behind her name indicate her sistudy) so that is the only reason I refer to them as trainers. I am quite confident in their abilities to judge.

I will talk to my husband about seeing Kathy, however that means a lot more money and time. Don't want to sound hard or nit picky but what happens if she is rehomable but we are not the right trainers for her? Who is going to take her on???

[tdierikx]

The getting out and having a go at another small dog isn't good... maybe it is best that Sage is given her wings if she's not safe around smaller animals.

It's just so weird that Sage fitted in well in a multi dog home (mostly larger dogs, but there are a couple of smaller dogs as well) in her first foster home - AND she had a litter of pups with her then. One would have thought that those tendencies would have stuck out like a sore thumb in that home, but she settled in fine. That's what has me so confused as to her behaviour now, and am asking if it's possible to have the "DOL member approved" behaviourist check her out.

Dogmad - what did you think of Ellie's reactions to challenging/barking dogs when you were helping her out to find a new home? Remember that you also had first hand experience with Ellie in the flesh. What would you have recommended for her if you hadn't met her and had only read that she would pull her hardest to go over to the other dog?

Whatever course Holly's Mummy takes from here - now that Sage has escalated to escaping the yard and attacking another dog - she has my support, respect, and sympathy.

Holly's Mummy - please don't feel pressured by my asking if Kathy can assess Sage - if she is impossible to contain and you can't see Kathy for a while, then you must do what you feel is right, OK?

T.

[Cheyd]

A huge part of the decision for me offering to take on Sage in the first place was the fact that she was comfortable in a pack and had had puppies so thought she might carry on being maternal. Therefore thought she would get on well with my boys and we could then work on introducing her to the cats.

But boy does she pull like a freight train, she has almost pulled my husband off his feet and he is 6'3" and over 100k, she was like that from the beginning.

Would it be possible that the hormone changes that come with puppies, mellowed her enough to become a member of the pack and now the hormones have gone, she has reverted to old behaviour?

Caz has sent me a PM and is very understanding about the situation and fully supports our decision and this definitely not something I want to do but I honestly cannot think of another solution.

T - I will give Kathy a call this week and see if she can give any advice over the phone, I will disclose everything and see if there is a quick way of sorting this. Hopefully she will know the people who have assessed her and that may help.