ness Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I know there are other threads posted on this but I have a question re non-weight bearing lameness. I have been told there is an increased risk of cruciate rupture and that if she should ever come up not weight bearing on the leg then its possible she has blown her cruciate. My query is does anybody have any experience with this and how is it different to a normal "patella" episode. My young BC has a grade 2 luxating patella on her LH. We haven't had surgery on it at this stage because she is in the process of rehabbing for biceps tendonitis and other than needing to give her a life back for a while I worry about surgery on a rear leg and the additional strain it will place on her shoulder which is not yet back to 100%. Any way I had my youngster at the oval last night and we were doing recalls to her tug - something she has been given permission by the specialist to do just recently. She jump up at me and came down and wasn't weight bearing on her hind leg. Normally her patella issues are isolated to walks on leash and the occasional somewhat random skipping. It normally isn't lasting and I can normally massage her a little bit and it all seems to be fine. Last night she was unable to walk home properly and so I had to carry her home. She was crated and other than finding a few sore spots last night in her thigh/groin but this morning she was totally back to normal and weight bearing properly again. I am in part stressed because of the increased cruciate risk so I guess I am primed to look and question things. I am presuming that this latest episode was just the patella rather than any thing else. Does this sound fair enough? Edited July 1, 2012 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 No idea but hope she is sound soon :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) A complete cruciate rupture is unlikely to resolve in less than 24 hrs, although a partial tear cannot be ruled out. A complete rupture would likely result in non weight bearing lameness for at least several days, despite rest and anti inflammatories. They rarely fully resolve in larger dogs although smaller(<7kg) dogs may learn to compensate and appear fairly normal over time. A partial tear may result in intermittent lameness or limping; the dog may appear to recover after rest and medication but will usually end up progressing to a full rupture at some stage. The best way to determine whether it is likely to be a cruciate issue or patella issue is to assess the position of the patella when she is actually lame. Additionally, if you are very concerned about cruciate issues you may choose to have her radiographed under GA and they can test the stability of the cruciate at the same time (cranial drawer test). An experienced vet is likely to pick up signs of a partial tear this way. Edited March 18, 2012 by aussielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I don't have any experience with patella problems, but my girl did her cruciate and had surgery on it last year. It has never been 100% since then and less than six months later, she did her other cruciate. I feel that the instability on the first leg may have weakened the second leg. She has not had surgery on the second leg as I have opted to mange it medically. When it first happened, she was very lame but now she is about 95% sound on that leg. Symptoms of ruptured cruciate can vary but if your dog is back to normal now, I wouldn't panic. More than likely the patella just popped out and took a while to pop back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogie Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Ness I can only respond based on experience with our girl's luxating patella and am certainly not an expert. We found the episodes increased quite dramatically and suddenly,from it having been diagnosed and being told surgery not immediately necessary to surgery being needed was not very long, she was only allowed to do minimal exercise that involved any twisting etc in the meantime and we followed instructions - but it did deteriorate quickly. She had episodes like you are describing where it had obviously been more painful when it dislocated and she was subsequently hesitant to weight bear but ok the next day. Can you ask the vet to have another look? Is there any where near you that you can take her for hydrotherapy? Issy has been going since her latest surgery (for her hip) but last time she went to the ortho he commented on the fact it had also improved her stability in the knee dramatically. I really hope she is ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Thanks for that response aussielover - she has a very good ortho specialist who has been looking after her shoulder and who will operate on her knee if it ever is deemed necessary. He was pretty matter of fact that if the cruciate did go then he would just fix them both in the same surgery. She has already been examined twice under sedation so it was pretty much ruled out of it being a cruciate at that stage but that was back in January. I am just in super sensitive stress mode and when she comes up on three legs after she has been jumping around and lands awkwardly and its still there an hour or two later I went into panic mode as you do. Her patella issues are normally not lasting lameness which is why I stressed. I guess I am overly sensitive to hints of lameness after what has been a pretty much of a rough time. Edited March 18, 2012 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Thanks for your response coogie - Kenz has already 13 weeks down on a fairly strict rehab program anyway. She isn't doing anything in the way of twisting or turning or least we are suppose to be avoiding it as much as we can. She has only been of super strict supervision for the last few days. The majority of her exercise has been swimming and leash walks. More swimming as she prefers that over leash walking. It was during the rehab time for her shoulder with all the fairly strict confinement and leash walking that she lost some of the muscle support which made the patella issue appear much more significantly. The specialist included. At least thats the best guess of those that have examined her considering she is 4 soon enough (so not a typical age or even breed to discover a patella issue). He actually wasn't able to find the luxating patella until she had been rested for a while and the chiro vet only found it by accident when he had her up on an uneven surface. I guess that is the other reason why at this stage there is not the inclination to rush into surgery - there is some suggestion that it might improve when she is allowed back to normal activity. She was fairly active prior to the shoulder issues and the patella was a complete non issue despite her being a very high drive agility dog. Edited March 18, 2012 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 If she was examined for cruciate issues in January, and you have been pretty much resting her since then, I doubt it would be a cruciate issue. BTW what did she have done to her shoulder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Hmmm except she also had her first 8 hour stint completely unsupervised and with free range of the yard on Friday, prior to that she has had a few hour or half hour or loosely supervised but I thought 13 weeks down the track we might be ok. I had no option as I had something that went all day and didn't think I could crate or confine her and she was otherwise fine Friday evening. I have also been slowly easing up letting her have a couple of off-leash walks so long as she is only walking and not sprinting and being a lunatic which is all fine. It was more the way she landed at the park when she bounced up at me that bothered me. She was a little over the top and I guess I have been becoming a little more relaxed because her shoulder is doing well so that is why I was stressing. She ended up having a 2 course treatment of PRP injections - first one was just before Christmas, second one was three weeks later and she has been on essentially the same rehab protocol that the specialist would use post any joint surgery except with slightly less strict confinement time. i.e. she only had 4 days after each injection. Other than that its been a gradual build up of leash walking, confinement at home, swimming her starting at 5-10 min and building. So at this stage she is getting walks/swims/doing some hill work. She had a physio appointment a few weeks ago and since then I have been somewhat less strict because the shoulder all seemed pretty good but still controlling what I can. I.e. we aren't back doing any dog sports but she will occasionally run the front fence at home. The specialists comment to me was if she does end up needing to go through it again I will be the rehab pro :laugh:. We were given the green light to introduce some weaving the other day until I mentioned she only has 1 speed of weaving FLAT OUT. So we are doing figure 8s around traffic cones instead :laugh:. Edited March 18, 2012 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogie Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Sounds like she is getting the best of care Ness, one comment re the swimming - we found this great for Issy's core strength and to get her some much needed exercise but found she used all other limbs rather than the one we needed her to. It wasn't until the hydro sessions where she is walking on a treadmill that submerges to take the weight off but make her use the leg under water to actively build the muscles, that we noticed a big difference. She gained back more than 5 cm in a couple of weeks - can you walk her in the water rather than letting her swim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Yep we have done some walking in the water to. I take her to a beach which is mostly dead calm and has a conveniently located sand bar. I will walk out into the water and we normally head out past the sand bar. When she has done some swimming and is slightly tired we will then just keep walking along in the water and she will walk with me so we so some of that as well. The biggest problem I am running into is she is suppose to be doing more walking up and down hills and side ways along hills and she is really reluctant. I am not sure if its pain related or because she finds it boring. Edited March 18, 2012 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 Just thought I would add something to this tonight - for the first time ever I have seen some very weird hind end stiffness at bedtime. I am more than a little concerned about it because its nothing normal for her to have hind end noticeable issues . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelleva Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Just want to send some positive vibes for your girl Ness. We went through the luxating patella surgery with our sheltie, she ended up with 2 surgeries and it hasn't been successful. Even with all the time and rehab, I followed the vets advice to the letter and she somehow damaged the knee and now has a permanent limp. Its a hard road, so my thoughts are with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Just thought I would add something to this tonight - for the first time ever I have seen some very weird hind end stiffness at bedtime. I am more than a little concerned about it because its nothing normal for her to have hind end noticeable issues . Could the stiffness just be a result of not using those muscles much/sctrict supervision and she used them when tugging for the first time? The tugging action does really work those hind quarters ina way that they don't normally work. Did she warm up before tugging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 She has had small amounts of tug for a little while and yep she is warmed up well and truely now before doing anything. I seem to spend more time warming her up then doing anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RosieFT Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Yep we have done some walking in the water to. I take her to a beach which is mostly dead calm and has a conveniently located sand bar. I will walk out into the water and we normally head out past the sand bar. When she has done some swimming and is slightly tired we will then just keep walking along in the water and she will walk with me so we so some of that as well. The biggest problem I am running into is she is suppose to be doing more walking up and down hills and side ways along hills and she is really reluctant. I am not sure if its pain related or because she finds it boring. hi Ness sorry you are still having problems, the worst is just not knowing what is going on! ugh. I just thought i would add my 2 cents on the hill work, in that Rosie seems to hate it and i don't think it is because it hurts. She starts off ok, but after a few up and downs she just lags behind, or lies down in some shade. But if i bring out a toy or food she is super keen again. So i have taken to carrying treats and treating her at odd times and she is more keen to stay alongside me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Yep I noticed that the last few times we have tried. This morning I did some work with her on hills at the beach. Her reward was the opportunity to go back and have another round of water fetch. That seemed to perk her up somewhat. The problem I have with using to much "luring"/"rewarding" is that will kick her into overdrive and then that probably defeats the purpose as she would walk over hot coals regardless of level of pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RosieFT Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Yep I noticed that the last few times we have tried. This morning I did some work with her on hills at the beach. Her reward was the opportunity to go back and have another round of water fetch. That seemed to perk her up somewhat. The problem I have with using to much "luring"/"rewarding" is that will kick her into overdrive and then that probably defeats the purpose as she would walk over hot coals regardless of level of pain. i can't do hill work at the beach, she is too much of a space cadet and won't walk or trot, just madly canters... it is so hard isn't it? ugh. over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 hmmm well I can only do hill work at the beach when she has had 20-30 min of swimming/walking through the water first. I think this morning we did it at the 30 min and 40 min mark just before we were leaving LOL. Although Kenz is ok she will trot to a hand target if I insist on it so we just do that and I reward with her toy :laugh:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) So the week has deteriorated - her shoulder is now bothering her and she has been mega sore all through her hind end without doing much if anything. . I am suppose to cut back her exercise for a fortnight and see how we get on. She is driving me insane - leash walks do nothing to take the edge off her. Her body can't cope with anything more then 20 min and then she comes home and is feral . She isn't a foodie dog so puzzle toys with treats and that sort of thing she fast loses interest. Stuff kongs are to be thrown and retrieved and played with. Edited March 22, 2012 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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