Temper And Colour

[Saffioraire]

2 tone Kelpies generally will not place in a show............... but if you see a working Kelpie in a working role, they are predominately 2 tone colours.

So I really wanted to carry on a train of thought stimulated from this comment (sorry don't mean to single you out).

I had a very interesting discussion once with a very well respected breeder of working dogs. He had questioned whether there is a genetic link between a dogs temper and it's colour. His reason to suggest this (firstly instigated by an old mentor) was demonstrated to me on a chart of the top achieving Dobermans over a hundred or so years. Of the many many dogs on the chart, there were perhaps several black Dobe's with the rest being Brown. He also suggested that the GSD demonstrated this also with the top achieving Sch/ IPO dogs over as many years were predominantly Sable. He continued this point saying that in all of his years he has never seen a White GSD competing in IPO at top level (at the top level competition overseas) and said it was passed down to him the suggestion that they did not have (words fail me) but the heart for the job. This was suggested by an old timer who admired the White for it's beauty but not it's ability to work in Sch/IPO. The interesting flow on is that the new breed of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog, has been developed with a differentiating term in the breed standard of "never apprehensive NOR AGGRESSIVE" which differs from the GSD. Was this done so as a direct result of the LACK of this component in the temper of the dog, or because he who wrote it did not desire the dog to do IPO? I don't know. But it is certainly interesting to note.

I am interested to know if this stems into other breeds, and if anyone else sees merit in such a suggestion (of course I am expecting a lot of no's, but really I am looking for the responses of those who are serious with working dogs). Of course such a genetic link is all but impossible to test for in a lab, and it could be a simple fact of colour selection led to character selection inadvertently. But I still think it is an interesting topic!

(I should note that his colour bias was not kennel bias as his top Dobe was black!)

[cannibalgoldfish]

I know nothing about dogs and breeding but I know old timers superstitions say a white horse is weak or soft. (and that a black horse will always be hard to work with)

Do you think such colour issues have been passed down to dogs?

[laeral]

I've always found it interesting that a lot of Working line GSDs seem to be sable/black. Yet you don't see many of these colours as pets.

Don't have any scientific reasons, just an interesting observation.

[Weasels]

it could be a simple fact of colour selection led to character selection inadvertently.

I suspect this is the biggest part of it (except in reverse). Depending on the depth of the gene pool at the founding of the breed the best working dogs may have come from a common line which happened to carry a certain colour or pattern. So when selecting the best workers the colour just got carried along for the ride. Of course we can't discount human bias, if they get the idea that browns are better and have a choice of a black and a brown sire for their good working bitch they go with the brown, and get a good working litter that fulfils their preconceived expectations.

I've also read on this forum of people hearing it said sheep won't respect cream kelpies

I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't place 2-tone kelpies, I think they are gorgeous I have a sneaking suspicion it's because some want to distance the working lines from the show lines FWIW though my 2-tone kelpie has much more natural herding instinct than my solid colour girl

Edited March 16, 2012 by Weasels

[Blackdogs]

Temple Grandin in her book 'Animals in Translation' has a bit to say about colour. From memory she makes the connection between domestication and white pigmentation, expanding on this to detail the connection between this de-pigmentation and exagerations in domestiacted behaviour that in some cases can be problematic. My anectodal experience doesn't alays support her hypothesis and I know there is more than one gene responsible for the white pigmentation, but it makes for interesting reading.

[juice]

i have heard amny times people tell me red cattle dogs are tougher, harder and not as friendly as blue ones.?

i also heard years ago that golden cockers had a bad temp? ( this could just have been popularity at the time with that colour and breeding from not so nice temp dogs)?

[becks]

the goldens got a rep for bad temperament because of the rage syndrome that was common (relatively) at that time.

re. the OP, why would you want an aggressive dog for IPO?

[espinay2]

I agree with Weasels in that IMO colour was something that 'went along for the ride' as particular dogs with other particular positive traits were selected for. A popular line, which happens to be a particular colour, then becomes more prolific.

Certianly many livestock guardian breeds are white, but many are also not. There is some conjecture that the white dogs were selected for in some places because the sheep in those locations were also predominantly white and the sheep therefore accepted the white dogs a lot easier. This also goes along with the conjecture that a darker coloured herding dog will be respected more by a flock. But these selections are really based on the temperament of the sheep and NOT the dogs as darker coloured livestock guardians with similar traits developed in other locations.

[Jumabaar]

I think there was a line of particularly good solid coloured kelpies, and they were the ones everyone used. For the past few years it has been hard to beat or show anything other than a chocolate coloured kelpie- now we have some amazing blacks coming through and in another year or two I think it will be 50/50.

This is because people have specifically decided black is the 'in thing'. There is actually also a push for breeding red n tan/ black n tan HOWEVER because its recessive and there are not many in the gene pool it will take another few years before they make a come back since most people are introducing this gene back into their lines so it will take two generations for it to be seen.

These colours are only happening because people are breeding specifically for them. This just doesn't happen in the working lines and the recessive colour is everywhere so to produce a solid coloured dog you would have to go out and specifically find a dog that was solid and breed to them. To keep solid colour in the next generation you would need to either find another solid dog or a dog out of a solid dog- which considering the small percentage of them may get difficult.

I genuinely think your just seeing something that results from selected breeding where colour really hasn't been a priority in the early days- just what got people the results they were after (be it in the paddock or in the show ring)

ie we have a LOT of cream in the Australian Finnish Lapphund population- no creams have been imported just that a few dogs carrying cream have and because we have a somewhat closed population the cream is coming out even though its a recessive. This may always be the case if the colour of dogs is ignored and only certain characteristics are selected for because there is now a large number of dogs carrying cream even if it is not being expressed.

It also highlights what people say when you suddenly decide to select for something else. Imagine its not a colour but a health problem your selecting away from- thats all well and good but will you inadvertently also be ignoring some other trait which may allow a new health problem to creep in.

[cowanbree]

I breed shelties and as a norm the tris are sharper and naughtier in temperament than any of the other colours. I love it personally

[Crisovar]

I think Jumabaar and Espinay have nailed it.

When selecting for a particular trait it pays to be very aware of what else is coming along for the ride.

When gold was the must have colour for a cocker those that bred only for that colour did the breed a great disservice, same as the chocolate Lab. It is not the colour that is the problem it is those that bred only to produce that colour, paying no heed to what else they were selecting for that cause problems.

[Inevitablue]

i have heard amny times people tell me red cattle dogs are tougher, harder and not as friendly as blue ones.?

i also heard years ago that golden cockers had a bad temp? ( this could just have been popularity at the time with that colour and breeding from not so nice temp dogs)?

I think that is from the thoughts that the red gene makes for fiery individuals. I've heard people argue this by suggesting the 'fiery red headed woman, the fiery chestnut horse' etc are anecdotal evidence of this.

[Kirty]

There is certainly lots of anecdotal evidence that colour affects personality, in lots of domestic animals. People call tortoiseshell cats 'naughty torties' because they are often feistier than other colours. And red (ginger) cats are known for being mellow and gorgeous. :)

And people always say that black Pugs are crazier than fawns!

[Jigsaw]

There are some references to increase in white in coat colour in the Russian Belyaev Farm-Fox experiment. In that as the foxes changed with the generations there was an increase in white markings together with other morphological changes. http://www.hum.utah.edu/~bbenham/2510%20Spring%2009/Behavior%20Genetics/Farm-Fox%20Experiment.pdf

There is also discussion regarding hormones such as adrenalin and dopamine affecting melanin production

http://www.ratbehavior.org/CoatColor.htm

I thought there actually was some research into "nortie torties" as well but can't find it at he moment! Mine is not so much nortie but very good at letting you what she does and doesn't like!

[Saffioraire]

the goldens got a rep for bad temperament because of the rage syndrome that was common (relatively) at that time.

re. the OP, why would you want an aggressive dog for IPO?

No you wouldn't want an "aggressive" dog for IPO - sometimes my brain can't eloquently think of the words I want to say The word I wanted to use was drive, but "drive" per se is such a vague term in the context of what I was trying to say, the White GSD's still had the drive to work in the tracking field, obedience etc etc just not for the bite work. As further to that I understand they CAN do the bite work but they don't have the threshold of say a Sable (or any other breed standard colour) of GSD. Don't ask me about Blue or Liver because I have no idea! I suppose you could say they don't have the 'heart' for the work? I don't know. (Metaphorically not morphologically of course)

I hope you sorta kinda understand what I am getting at? Sorry!

[espinay2]

I thought there actually was some research into "nortie torties" as well but can't find it at he moment! Mine is not so much nortie but very good at letting you what she does and doesn't like!

Over the years I have had three tortie cats - all with very different personalities from soft and laid back to skittish and somewhere inbetween.

[sallyandtex]

There are some references to increase in white in coat colour in the Russian Belyaev Farm-Fox experiment. In that as the foxes changed with the generations there was an increase in white markings together with other morphological changes. http://www.hum.utah.edu/~bbenham/2510%20Spring%2009/Behavior%20Genetics/Farm-Fox%20Experiment.pdf

There is also discussion regarding hormones such as adrenalin and dopamine affecting melanin production

http://www.ratbehavior.org/CoatColor.htm

I thought there actually was some research into "nortie torties" as well but can't find it at he moment! Mine is not so much nortie but very good at letting you what she does and doesn't like!

I addition,

last months National geographic has a great read on what is known from dog traits:

see, http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/02/build-a-dog/ratliff-text

It was interesting that the gene for temperment alluded the researchers except for:

"One category of trait that has so far proved resistant to the CanMap analysis is behavior. Only a single mutant behavioral gene has been identified to date: the dog version of the gene for obsessive-compulsive disorder in humans, which can cause Doberman pinschers to obsessively suck on their fur to the point of bleeding. More common characteristics such as loyalty, tenaciousness, or the instinct to herd clearly have genetic underpinnings. But they can also be affected by factors ranging from a dog's nutrition to the presence of children in the house, making them difficult to quantify rigorously enough to study. Nevertheless, "we've probably got as good a shot, if not better, of understanding behavior in dogs over other animals," says Stanford's Bustamante. After all, he points out, there are millions of dog lovers out there willing and eager to help with the fieldwork."

[mita]

I found there was a research project reported in the journal of Applied Animal Behavior Science which particularly looked at Cocker Spaniels. Carried out, at University of Cordoba, Spain.

Results were that the genes which control the various coat colours also appear to predispose certain behaviours.. But, the researcher says, it's how dogs are raised that plays the biggest role in behaviour.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/12/13/dogfur_ani.html

Edited March 17, 2012 by mita

[pepe001]

The reason why there are few sable GSD in show lines was because when West Germany started breeding for the English and US show scene they favoured light-faced B and T dogs. Apparently, they looked less aggressive. So they culled most of the darker dogs ie bi-colour and sable. Some of the most successful sires died. These dogs became the foundation show-lines. The East German breeders (at the time still communist and with a State run breeding program) continued to breed for purpose and colour wasn't as important so sable (the most common colour continues) as does black, bi-colour and the occasional B and T and B and G.

As for whites still having the drive to do the work of working line shepherd - maybe the occasional one could peform adequately with the right training but they are so far from being bred for those sorts of drive I doubt they have it in them anymore to excell. Same as show-line shepherds. They have generations of breeding for soft (compared to East dogs) temperaments and pet qualities. But for tracking, obedience and sports involving man-work (but not expecting to win etc) many would be perfect. I used to play around with a west black and tan GSD tracking and man-work dog and he was a good worker - but drives were nothing like the easts I have worked. He was a great dog, unfortunately CHD got him at a young age. Of course many working line dogs are also not good enough to excell in sports involving man-work. My last East was like this - he wouldn't have made it with the big boys but was good enough for me and his drives were easily controlled. He was also a great pet and kids dog.

Don't take that the wrong way. I love the White Shepherds I see featured here and occasionally on the streets but they are clearly bred as pets and not working dogs. What I would love would be a white East German Shepherd but never heard of one and I doubt they would ever make it out of the whelping box - sad. I have asked around but no one admits ever breeding one. Maybe I should look around for a White with good drives as a puppy and see how he goes.

[Saffioraire]

The reason why there are few sable GSD in show lines was because when West Germany started breeding for the English and US show scene they favoured light-faced B and T dogs. Apparently, they looked less aggressive. So they culled most of the darker dogs ie bi-colour and sable. Some of the most successful sires died. These dogs became the foundation show-lines. The East German breeders (at the time still communist and with a State run breeding program) continued to breed for purpose and colour wasn't as important so sable (the most common colour continues) as does black, bi-colour and the occasional B and T and B and G.

As for whites still having the drive to do the work of working line shepherd - maybe the occasional one could peform adequately with the right training but they are so far from being bred for those sorts of drive I doubt they have it in them anymore to excell. Same as show-line shepherds. They have generations of breeding for soft (compared to East dogs) temperaments and pet qualities. But for tracking, obedience and sports involving man-work (but not expecting to win etc) many would be perfect. I used to play around with a west black and tan GSD tracking and man-work dog and he was a good worker - but drives were nothing like the easts I have worked. He was a great dog, unfortunately CHD got him at a young age. Of course many working line dogs are also not good enough to excell in sports involving man-work. My last East was like this - he wouldn't have made it with the big boys but was good enough for me and his drives were easily controlled. He was also a great pet and kids dog.

Don't take that the wrong way. I love the White Shepherds I see featured here and occasionally on the streets but they are clearly bred as pets and not working dogs. What I would love would be a white East German Shepherd but never heard of one and I doubt they would ever make it out of the whelping box - sad. I have asked around but no one admits ever breeding one. Maybe I should look around for a White with good drives as a puppy and see how he goes.

Again I have other thoughts but will comment on what I know intimately first. When you say you would be interested in an 'East White puppy' (hehe) or a White with good drives as a puppy, what drives are you referring to? While I DONT want this to become a thread about the White Shepherd - I would like to contradict a thought I see you having (unless I am reading it wrong). The modern day White Swiss Shepherd Dog as it is by the FCI and accepted by the ANKC, while IMO and is immanently evident does NOT possess the drive for bite work/ IPO - tracking and obedience is a whoooole other kettle of fish. Using my bitch as an example, first tracking outing ever, was highly commended by those running the day and I was told happily that with minimal practice she would be achieving titles. She works her nose naturally and very well. This year we picked up proper obedience training, off the little training I have given her (basic sit, stay, stand) she was pushed through to (what I believe) is grade 3 in 3 lessons as a starting point and I was told it would not be hard for her to gain titles this year. Our biggest challenge will be stand for exam, but her nerves stem more from trauma of quarantine than personality flaws.

Her puppies.... oh her puppies! I kept a pup from her x a lovely dog. At 6 weeks when I called was coming to my feet, sitting in close and engaging eye contact, or focus on my face. He was used as an example dog for the lead work at puppy school. He heeled (unprompted) his shoulder to her leg, focus on her face at all times.... natural untaught! He is not the only pup, I have feedback from many including one who is in training (an impressing her hardest critics) for Search and Rescue.

So I my point is obedience, loyalty, intelligence and natural instinct is not lost on these dogs, but the drive for bite work/ IPO, yes most definitely IMHO