m-j Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Hi The other day I was fiddling around with a vibrating collar and desided to condition my 5 dogs to respond to the vibration the same way a clicker/marker word is charged. I was very surprised at how long it took them to form the association, compared to a word or the clicker. When they did the respond it wasn't quite the same, they didnt look at me with the bright eyed, prick eared confidence that they give with a clicker or a word. This has me intrigued so I have decided to go to the kennels I work at and test it on the dogs there (60 dogs with no food training experience) and actually see how many trials it takes the dogs to form the association. So my question is how would be the best way to set this up, my thoughts are a control group forming an association with a clicker, group 2 - form an association with the vibration and maybe group 3 - form an association with a clicker, then form an association between clicker and vibration. If anyone has a better ideas on how to conduct this experiment I would be interested to hear about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Just a word of caution, some dogs find the vibration to be more aversive than low-level electrical stimulation, so there would be some ethical concerns. I realise that this is an informal experiment, but at the very least I would be seeking informed consent from the dog's owners. I would use a stimulus other than the clicker, some of the dogs may have had prior exposure to the clicker. The next problem to solve would be how to measure the association that you are trying to form? You would need to untangle any reinforcement effects from the vibro-tactile stimulation, either as an aversive or as a primary positive reinforcer (sans food). Physiological measures might be the most appropriate (e.g salivation, if you are using food). A search of previous literature (which does exist) might point you in the right direction, or even answer your question directly. Luckily these days a lot of this literature (particularly from the behaviourist era) is readily available and can be found using Google Scholar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I was going to say that they most probably see it as an adversive. I get annoyed/hurt/something that I don't like happens = I get a treat is most probably very confusing for a dog. Do you work at a boarding kennels? If yes, did the owners give permission for you to do this to their dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I was very surprised at how long it took them to form the association, compared to a word or the clicker. When they did the respond it wasn't quite the same, they didnt look at me with the bright eyed, prick eared confidence that they give with a clicker or a word. No surprise there ;) If I rigged up something whereby , at random intervals , you had your hair pulled , and I offered you a treat ... I would presume you also would not have the same happy, expectant look that you would have if I had called you by name , or used a clicker . Presumably there are all sorts of legalities/considerations with doing 'informal' and un sanctioned experiments at a premises not your own, and using subjects (dogs) who are also not your own. My advice? Don't go ahead. Clients who have dogs at that kennel may not be amused if their dog responds in a previously unseen manner to an e collar after your 'experiment' , or if a dog is adversely affected ! How do you explain it to the owners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korbin13 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 This has me intrigued so I have decided to go to the kennels I work at and test it on the dogs there (60 dogs with no food training experience) and actually see how many trials it takes the dogs to form the association. Apart from it not being ethical/professional to experiment on other peoples dogs, do you know for sure that the dogs have no food training experience or even e collar training? If these dogs are peoples pets I would say most have had some sort of food training. As you don't know the history of these dogs I don't think that it would be possible to get accurate results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Thanks for your replies and the concern you have for the dogs. Yes my dogs did see it as a very mild adversive which is why I wanted to do the experiment in the first place just to see how much it impacts on learning, compared with a non adversive stimulus. I did know that adversives impact on learning but I want a time/trial rate comparison, with a simple behaviour, given by only one handler to narrow the variables. Oops I hadn't thought of ethics (as it seemed to be seen by my dogs as a very mild adversive, slight ear flick, slight white of eye showing briefly, normal training for the dogs at the kannels brings much more stress) I will reduce the amount of dogs I test. The boss has his dogs there and he is more than happy for me to do it with them as he knows I would never do anything to hurt or terrify them. If the dog appears concerned obviously I wouldn't continue with that dog. The dogs are not pets, the kennels is a rearing and spelling kennel for Greys so none of them have had experience with clickers or any type of conditioned reinforcer as the majority have needed to learn to take food from my hand and I haven't used a conditioned reinforcer with them. I also work at a boarding kennel and I wouldnt even consider doing this with those dogs as they are already in various states of stress due to the fact they aren't in their normal environment, whereas with the Greys the huge runs (200mx30m) they in is their home and they know me well. Just as I wouldn't do it with any new arrivals at the Greyhound kennels for the same reason. I did have a quick search on google scholar but couldn't find anything telling me what I want to know, I will have a better look tonight. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 most dogs will see it as a mild aversive, that is my experience too. I'm surprised if you are allowed to use it on the greys where you work, if you create dogs that suddenly becomes handler/collar shy because of it your boss won't be happy. And of that there is a big chance particularly in dogs that have limited experience in handling and training techniques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) If the dog appears concerned obviously I wouldn't continue with that dog. You've just biased your study right there. Agree with Aidan, check the literature to see if the experiment has been done under controlled conditions by professional scientists. Edited March 16, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 most dogs will see it as a mild aversive, that is my experience too. I'm surprised if you are allowed to use it on the greys where you work, if you create dogs that suddenly becomes handler/collar shy because of it your boss won't be happy. And of that there is a big chance particularly in dogs that have limited experience in handling and training techniques. The majority of dogs that come to us you can't get near once they have been released into the runs. People, collars and leads are seen as an adversive, well and truely, until they learn otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 so you're fulfilling the animal's expectations that the collar/handling will be unpleasant and hence have an even greater uphill battle getting the dogs to learn otherwise, as they now have a definite experience of what they probably will consider positive punishment. behaviorally speaking the word is aversive, adversive means the opposite of what you expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Your study then is confusing ..if the dogs are not used to being handled/treated ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 "Abstract Components of rat pups' ingestive responses to orally infused milk came to be elicited by a novel odor conditioned stimulus (cedar) that had been repeatedly paired with milk infusions (Experiment I). Pups responded specifically to one odor, and they did not generalize their conditioned responding to either another odor or an unscented airstream (Experiment II). Ingestive responses could also be conditioned to a vibrotactile CS paired with milk, although levels of conditioned responding were lower than were obtained with an odor CS (Experiment III). Pups' internal state determined the effectiveness of training, in that pups that were removed from their dam for 24 hr showed reliable conditioned responding, while nondeprived pups and dehydrated pups did not (Experiment IV). Finally, pups showed retention of conditioned responding for at least several days after training (Experiment V)." http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dev.420170404/abstract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I don't know that an informal experiment will mean you don't need animal ethics approval. That aside, running even the simplest of behavioural experiments with reliable results is not easy, takes considerable prior knowledge and also requires a good understanding of how to use statistics. In my opinion it's a waste of resources if the work won't be peer reviewed and published. If you are really keen to do something like this I would contact a University with a good reputation and discuss the possibilities - they may have a post-grad student that is interested. It is not easy to find kennels willing to assist so it might be a nice collaboration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC4ME Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 If anyone tried "experimenting" on my dogs I would be soooooo P*$$ed. If I was the owner of the kennels your working at and I found out you were experimenting on clients dogs, you would be out the door so quick you wouldn't know what hit you. I'm sorry but people do not leave their dogs in kennels to be used as guinea pigs, no matter how simple or complex your experiments maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 BC4ME - the OP has explained that this is a greyhound kennels and the owner has consented. Still, it doesn't sit right with me. Deliberately using an aversive when a dog hasn't done anything wrong (they are clearly startled by the OP description) and then treating them just to perform an informal experiment seems cruel and unnecessary. I doubt any uni ethics committee would approve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If it's a greyhound spelling/rearing facility, the owner of the facility doesn't own the dogs then does he? I would be really peeved if a greyhound I owner was at the facility and I found out somehow that he/she was being used in someone's experiment. Those dogs are bred for making money, not for being experimented on - informally or formally! I'd be beyond furious with both you and your boss for treating my animals to an experiment when I'm paying for them to be reared or spelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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