Why Would A Full Grown Dog Attack A Puppy?

[Staffyluv]

Imagine the horror, toddler assaulted by teenage thugs in Highschool sports ground....(oops it was a Rugby game, maybe they shouldn't have been there?)time for a reality check!

Dog parks are a lottery at best, and Russian roulette most days. The dog park is as dangerous as it comes, you are reliant upon people you mostly don't know to control animals you don't know, with an ever changing mix of dogs and owners. If you can guarantee the attendees, maybe your odds are better. You may know your dog, but can you be sure of the others?

I think the pup owners need to re-think socialisation..... they have rocks in their head if socalisation means the free for all that dog parks can deteriorate into. Socialisation is a far broader concept. e,g, :

Get into puppy classes, meet up with friend's dogs in controlled conditions.....take puppy to busy environments- cafe's, shopping areas, markets....dog parks can wait.

for ignorant Puppy owners! When any new dog- pup or otherwise eneters a dog park- it should be heads up for all.

I gave them my number in case they needed someone to back their story up if they decided to report it and spoke to them today...

They called to let me know the little one is fine and on some antibiotics just in case...

We have decided to have a play date here at my house for their little one with Ziggy and Pippa next week sometime.... Turns out they are both new to dog ownership, the pup is from the RSPCA and they thought it would be good to make new friends for the pup at the dog park...

Not everyone is an expert or knows all the rules of owning and caring for dogs... I have had dogs most of my life and I still learn new things all the time...

I don't think they were deliberately irresponsible... I have told them about DOL and what a great place it is to learn about all things dog related..

Hopefully we will have some new DOLers...

[Katie P]

I unfortunately have witnessed some attacks at dog parks- all of them unprovoked. I was relieved that my gut instinct told me to leave when those particular dogs came in. Some of those attacks did include adults going for 3-5 month old puppies .

Fortunately, we have about 5 fenced sections to the dog park I sometimes go to. At the time I go, there is always one available for my three to have a run around by themselves. They are also meant for different sized dogs which people are pretty good about following. If someone else comes in I either move to another free section or leave.......I find my guys are not interested in socialising with other unknown dogs, prefering to just do their own individual thing whenever it be exploring or doing Zoomies. Its a shame that more dog parks couldnt be set up like this- although it wouldn't stop people coming in with dogs with issues, it gives you more options and space.

[Guest donatella]

These stories are why me and fluff ball don't go to dog parks, might seek out a small park one day though but she'd probably just bark.

I know a 9 week old GSD that was killed after the neighbors adult dog got under the fence while the neighbors where talking at the fence. A few shakes and the poor thing was dead. No marks on him, but he had passed, the 2 year old witnessed the whole thing too

[Staffyluv]

I unfortunately have witnessed some attacks at dog parks- all of them unprovoked. I was relieved that my gut instinct told me to leave when those particular dogs came in. Some of those attacks did include adults going for 3-5 month old puppies .

Fortunately, we have about 5 fenced sections to the dog park I sometimes go to. At the time I go, there is always one available for my three to have a run around by themselves. They are also meant for different sized dogs which people are pretty good about following. If someone else comes in I either move to another free section or leave.......I find my guys are not interested in socialising with other unknown dogs, prefering to just do their own individual thing whenever it be exploring or doing Zoomies. Its a shame that more dog parks couldnt be set up like this- although it wouldn't stop people coming in with dogs with issues, it gives you more options and space.

This is what I have been doing with Ziggy and the new foster puppy we have here... She is only 5 months old, but bigger than Ziggy and she comes every time I call her so it is competition for him and he is coming because she is... So the only time he gets a free run now is when there is no other dogs around... Just him and Pippa...

Although I am going to stop taking him until his recall is better again as I have been told I am doing the wrong thing letting him off lead when his recall is not perfect. So until we get it right he won't be getting any more running exercise...

God only knows how I am going to wear him out but apparently it is wrong and I don't want to do the wrong thing....

We were in the other section with these dogs when they first arrived but I really didn't like the big dogs reaction to Pippa, so took them into the other section.

I am thinking the pups owners saw my 2, a staffy cross and Pippa (who looks like a ridgie cross) and thought the other side was safer because the dogs were smaller.

Having 5 sections would be awesome, not just for play and zoomed but also for training...

Edited March 16, 2012 by Staffyluv

[dancinbcs]

Why do people always think that an adult dog won't hurt a puppy?

Because they shouldn't. It is totally unacceptable behaviour and a sign of a very bad temperament. Lots of adults will put a puppy in it's place by holding it down by the throat with a lot of noise if the puppy is being obnoxious but any adult that launches an unprovoked attack on a puppy that does damage is totally in the wrong. I have seen it happen at shows and just hope these dogs are never bred from.

[indigirl]

No idea why, dogs are animals and they do what they do. Can't always predict how a dog will react to a puppy.

I think anyone who takes a baby puppy to a dog park is a fool. Apart from the aggression issues with other dogs my fear is disease. I won't allow my dogs to go to public doggy places until at least 6months of age, and then only if there's not been a recent parvo outbreak.

Hope the puppy is ok amd doesn't become fear aggressive to other dogs from this.

Eta I will take a baby puppy to a dog show but dogs are controlled there and the pups feet barely touch the ground until just outside the ring.

Edited March 16, 2012 by indigirl

[WExtremeG]

Yep- they do Now I don't trust any dog not on a leash.

3 times my girls been attacked unprovoked on 3 separate occasions, 3 times she's been on a leash and 3 times the dogs that have attacked her weren't.

I know this may not be the case(but it sure felt like it), it was almost like they knew that she might become a threat- so to take her down now.

[sallyandtex]

i have always wondered why these dogs would attack something so non-threatening, but came to the conclusion that they are just plain bullies, and have not been trained by the owners that it is bad behaviour (ie they like their dogs like that )

How ridiculous. I would give anything for my dog not to be DA, and even after a lot of training and behaviour modification (he hasnt attacked another dog in more than five years) he will still never be the dog he could have been had he not developed fear aggression. I know a number of people with DA dogs and no one I know actually likes it. Is awful having to manage a dog that can be aggressive. I wouldnt wish it on anyone.

Its quite rare to come across a truly rank aggressive dog, by far most aggression is fear based.

If people liked that their dogs were DA, we would never have any clients and neither would any other behaviourial trainers.

Ridiculous?

i probably didn't pick my words carefully enough for this forum , shame on me) BUT what i was trying to say is that...

I think the owners that have dogs that are ALLOWED to attack other dogs should be a bit more pro-active, BECAUSE they know their dogs CAN behave this way, and need to have their dogs ON-LEAD in the least, or muzzled and in a quiet spot if they want them to have a run.

It sounds like most people on this forum already do that. ;)

A perfect world it isn't.

Also, I am now a little confused, on one hand it is mentioned that you can't train a dog out of the aggression, but then say that the dog behaviourists would be out of a job

Edited March 17, 2012 by sallyandtex

[koalathebear]

Sorry people have had such bad experiences. That story is quite horrific.

We've always been very cautious with our two. At first, our dogs only played with dogs before and after Dog School in the off-lead area. We did doggy play dates with known dogs at our club grounds and also at dog parks. My two have 'grown up' with 6 other doggy friends (different breeds and sizes) who also trained at the same club and have always got along beautifully with them. We never went to dog parks 'alone' unless it was empty so would usually go early in the morning or just at times when we knew it was likely to be deserted.

While the dogs have been at the dog parks with their doggy friends, strange dogs have entered the pen but we've never had any problems - although we always keep a very close eye when there is a strange dog in the yard with ours.

Given that our two seemed to be very happy playing with other dogs, even the occasional strange dog, in the past few weeks we've started letting our dogs play at Yarralumla on Sundays in the pen for smaller/lighter/old dogs. There's a bit too much growling and rough play in the larger yard but our two are pretty happy in the smaller yard and we have not had any problems yet - all the owners seem very friendly, respectful and mindful of manners. I won't post them here, but there are videos in the Canberra thread in the DOL Social Events sub-forum and you'll see that all the dogs seem to get along beautifully. I've liked letting my two have the experience of playing with the little puppies - they have been very gentle with them and tend to ignore them.

I wouldn't say that all dog parks are a bad thing. I wouldn't go if it was crowded, I wouldn't try to take two dogs on my own without OH coming along to keep an eye on them as well but I definitely think that they can be a good source of fun and enrichment for your dog.

Like wuffles above, the only time either of my dogs has ever been attacked was not a dog park, it was during an agility class. One of the dogs went off-lead and went for Elbie. Neither was hurt and the other dog was not permitted to return to class until its issues had been resolved but like all the dogs in the class, it had passed the very basic temperament test to even be allowed in the class so I guess I definitely hadn't expected it to happen. Sometimes it's just bad luck.

Irresponsible owners could show up anywhere - on the street with their offlead dogs is just as traumatic as in a dog park :p The only time Hoover's almost been attacked was when an offlead GSD rushed at us when we were on a walk. The owner said: "Don't worry, he's friendly" but it was pretty terrifying to have a huge, growling, long-haired GST hurtling towards us :p I just picked up Hoover off the ground and started walking away.

Edited March 17, 2012 by koalathebear

[Guest lavendergirl]

Sorry people have had such bad experiences. That story is quite horrific.

We've always been very cautious with our two. At first, our dogs only played with dogs before and after Dog School in the off-lead area. We did doggy play dates with known dogs at our club grounds and also at dog parks. My two have 'grown up' with 6 other doggy friends (different breeds and sizes) who also trained at the same club and have always got along beautifully with them. We never went to dog parks 'alone' unless it was empty so would usually go early in the morning or just at times when we knew it was likely to be deserted.

While the dogs have been at the dog parks with their doggy friends, strange dogs have entered the pen but we've never had any problems - although we always keep a very close eye when there is a strange dog in the yard with ours.

Given that our two seemed to be very happy playing with other dogs, even the occasional strange dog, in the past few weeks we've started letting our dogs play at Yarralumla on Sundays in the pen for smaller/lighter/old dogs. There's a bit too much growling and rough play in the larger yard but our two are pretty happy in the smaller yard and we have not had any problems yet - all the owners seem very friendly, respectful and mindful of manners. I won't post them here, but there are videos in the Canberra thread in the DOL Social Events sub-forum and you'll see that all the dogs seem to get along beautifully. I've liked letting my two have the experience of playing with the little puppies - they have been very gentle with them and tend to ignore them.

I wouldn't say that all dog parks are a bad thing. I wouldn't go if it was crowded, I wouldn't try to take two dogs on my own without OH coming along to keep an eye on them as well but I definitely think that they can be a good source of fun and enrichment for your dog.

Like wuffles above, the only time either of my dogs has ever been attacked was not a dog park, it was during an agility class. One of the dogs went off-lead and went for Elbie. Neither was hurt and the other dog was not permitted to return to class until its issues had been resolved but like all the dogs in the class, it had passed the very basic temperament test to even be allowed in the class so I guess I definitely hadn't expected it to happen. Sometimes it's just bad luck.

Irresponsible owners could show up anywhere - on the street with their offlead dogs is just as traumatic as in a dog park :p The only time Hoover's almost been attacked was when an offlead GSD rushed at us when we were on a walk. The owner said: "Don't worry, he's friendly" but it was pretty terrifying to have a huge, growling, long-haired GST hurtling towards us :p I just picked up Hoover off the ground and started walking away.

Isn't that area signposted for small dogs only from memory - haven't been there for a while.

[koalathebear]

Isn't that area signposted for small dogs only from memory - haven't been there for a while.

It's sign-posted as being for puppies, smaller, lighter or elderly dogs. My two are pretty light - medium-sized dogs but on the lean end. I wouldn't feel comfortable with them playing with the big boofers in the other yard.

Edited March 17, 2012 by koalathebear

[huski]

Also, I am now a little confused, on one hand it is mentioned that you can't train a dog out of the aggression, but then say that the dog behaviourists would be out of a job

No, what I said was that my dog will never be the exact same dog he could have been had he not been attacked badly as a puppy and developed fear aggression as a result of those attacks.

And then I said if peopled liked that their dogs were aggressive as you suggested, no one would ever hire trainers to help them with it - behaviourists see people with aggressive dogs every week, if they liked that their dogs were aggressive they wouldn't seek help to fix it.

I don't know why people take their dogs to dog parks when they know their dogs will attack other dogs, with my dog it was a case of being young and inexperienced and having no idea that his behaviour was bad until it got much worse. The people at our local dog park also had dogs that would attack other dogs and there was an attitude amongst the regulars that it was normal and acceptable behaviour. This was a long time ago and as new dog owners we had no idea how to read dog body language, had no real understanding of dog behaviour or even knew the first thing about training dogs even to a basic reliable level. I think some people are plain irresponsible but I also think it can be plain ignorance and a lack of understanding and knowledge about dog behaviour.

[Charjas]

1331862295[/url]' post='5765164']

1331861310[/url]' post='5765145']

I'm no dog expert. My toy poodles are 3 years and 8 months. I never go to areas like those. I know it's good to socialise your dogs but I'm too scared to let them off lead. I'm scared of other dogs and have had a few bad experiences in my own neighbourhood. Some people insist on letting their dog out to roam. It sees me with Charlie and jasper and charges up . I'm terrified as I don't know what it's going to do. Sometimes I have picked them up and I know that's wrong. Once a jack Russell charged at Charlie and bit him on the nose and if we ever walk past it now Charlie barks quite ferociously. I find walking them a bad enough experience.

If it protects them, it isn't wrong at all.

People who will tell you that picking up a small dog that's under threat will make it "dominant" are full of it. Invariably, they don't own small dogs.

The risk is real that a dog will jump up on you to get to them but they'd have to get past my boot first. If there is a car bonnet/roof nearby? Use that.

And yell your head off at the oncoming dog. If it doesn't stop it, it may attract some help.

There is something to be said for carrying a big umbrella or one of those groovy aluminium hiking poles.. it can be a barrier or a weapon if required.

I have always maintained that folk who have never seen a serious incident in a public dog park are lucky.. and its only a matter of time.

I was told not pick up as it transmits my anxiety to the dog . In a recent incident with another Jack Russell. The guy was walking along with the dog off lead, it spotted Charlie, charged at us and was jumping up my legs trying to get Charlie. When the owner finally arrived he sais "sorry about that". I said a bit more. I am terrified by these events and walk home with my whole body shaking. I was bitten as a child and am terrified of all dogs. If one is standing outside its place I will cross the road. Or sometimes turn round and go back the other way.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Charjas

[Sayreovi]

Why do people always think that an adult dog won't hurt a puppy?

Because they shouldn't. It is totally unacceptable behaviour and a sign of a very bad temperament. Lots of adults will put a puppy in it's place by holding it down by the throat with a lot of noise if the puppy is being obnoxious but any adult that launches an unprovoked attack on a puppy that does damage is totally in the wrong. I have seen it happen at shows and just hope these dogs are never bred from.

Agree 100%

Maybe it's a little naive, but I think a dog should never attack a puppy.

[wuffles]

1331862295[/url]' post='5765164']

1331861310[/url]' post='5765145']

I'm no dog expert. My toy poodles are 3 years and 8 months. I never go to areas like those. I know it's good to socialise your dogs but I'm too scared to let them off lead. I'm scared of other dogs and have had a few bad experiences in my own neighbourhood. Some people insist on letting their dog out to roam. It sees me with Charlie and jasper and charges up . I'm terrified as I don't know what it's going to do. Sometimes I have picked them up and I know that's wrong. Once a jack Russell charged at Charlie and bit him on the nose and if we ever walk past it now Charlie barks quite ferociously. I find walking them a bad enough experience.

If it protects them, it isn't wrong at all.

People who will tell you that picking up a small dog that's under threat will make it "dominant" are full of it. Invariably, they don't own small dogs.

The risk is real that a dog will jump up on you to get to them but they'd have to get past my boot first. If there is a car bonnet/roof nearby? Use that.

And yell your head off at the oncoming dog. If it doesn't stop it, it may attract some help.

There is something to be said for carrying a big umbrella or one of those groovy aluminium hiking poles.. it can be a barrier or a weapon if required.

I have always maintained that folk who have never seen a serious incident in a public dog park are lucky.. and its only a matter of time.

I was told not pick up as it transmits my anxiety to the dog . In a recent incident with another Jack Russell. The guy was walking along with the dog off lead, it spotted Charlie, charged at us and was jumping up my legs trying to get Charlie. When the owner finally arrived he sais "sorry about that". I said a bit more. I am terrified by these events and walk home with my whole body shaking. I was bitten as a child and am terrified of all dogs. If one is standing outside its place I will cross the road. Or sometimes turn round and go back the other way.

If your dog is already stressed and scared, picking them up does nothing except protect them.

[Greytmate]

Ridiculous?

i probably didn't pick my words carefully enough for this forum , shame on me) BUT what i was trying to say is that...

I think the owners that have dogs that are ALLOWED to attack other dogs should be a bit more pro-active, BECAUSE they know their dogs CAN behave this way, and need to have their dogs ON-LEAD in the least, or muzzled and in a quiet spot if they want them to have a run.

It sounds like most people on this forum already do that. ;)

A perfect world it isn't.

Also, I am now a little confused, on one hand it is mentioned that you can't train a dog out of the aggression, but then say that the dog behaviourists would be out of a job

Hang on, you said previously that aggression in dogs was a reflection of their owner's lack of training. That implies that placid temperament is a learned trait in dogs, and does not have a genetic basis. I think that is wrong.

Now you are saying they are because of a lack of owner management that a dog might display aggression. I agree with that.

It isn't the words you chose, it was the idea you were putting forward that people are disagreeing with, and now you are putting forward a completely different one.

The first idea you put forward is the reason why so many people have trouble accepting that management might be the only way to stop aggression.

Remember there is always a first time for dog aggression and so there will always be incidents that catch people by surprise. Let's encourage people to buy pet puppies from breeders that select for non-aggressive temperament, to be aware of common breed traits, and to recognise the non-verbal communication and other signals that our dog might have aggressive tendencies. Very few people at a dog park or anywhere else would be happy to see their dog hurt another, so there is little to be achieved by saying they are bad or that their dogs are bullies.

[huski]

I don't think dogs should attack other dogs full stop, but it still happens.

My dog luckily never injured any dogs he attacked but then again, he wasn't badly injured when he was attacked as a pup either, it just did lots of mental damage.

I don't think it's 100% genetics/temperament related because I truly believe if I had him from a puppy now he would not be put in a position where he could learn he had any reason to be aggressive and therefore would never develop aggression. He doesn't have great nerves and was attacked in his first fear period which I think made it worse. He is great with puppies and other dogs once he is familiar with them and aside from having weaker nerves I can't fault his temperament, he's never displayed aggression to people and is a wonderful dog to live with.

I would never breed from him even if I thought he was worth breeding from and even if he wasn't DA because I don't like his nerves.

Edited March 17, 2012 by huski

[Kavik]

I'm with huski. Zoe is dog aggressive, I certainly never wanted her to be that way and I have done a LOT of work with her. She also doesn't have great nerves. Knowing what I do now, if I had gotten her now as a puppy I would have done a lot of things differently in regards to her socialisation and her general interaction with other dogs - I never would have put her in some of the situations that I did in the past which contributed to her developing dog aggression. Would she have been bombproof? No I don't think so, due to her nerves, but she would be a lot better than she is and I think I could have gotten her to the point where I could have trained and competed with her, she has plenty of drive and loves to work/train even now at 12 1/2 yrs.

[huski]

I know what you mean Kavik. I wouldn't select a puppy exactly like Mish again, but I know a lot more now than I did then and even with the faults in his temperament (which overall is lovely) I know enough now to manage and raise him in a way that would give us both a different outcome. That's why I think education for pet owners is so important.

[Kavik]

You know the most frustrating question I was always asked about Zoe? "Didn't you socialise her as a pup?" - I did, from the time I got her home, and I did what I thought was the right thing, but it turned out to be the wrong thing. Lesson learned.