Testing For Breed Function

[Kavik]

You are right, nothing can replace actual work. But if we don't do something and say it is just too hard and too far removed and not the same, we risk possibly losing functionality altogether, not to mention how appearances change too.

[Crisovar]

My dog's not a gundog and apart from a nice formal dumbbell retrieve she doesn't know the meaning of the word... does that mean a wrap heel is acceptable?

Unquestionably... but I still find it highly stylised, mostly a breach of the rules (contact between dog and handler occurs frequently) and not in the interests of the dog, chiropracticly speaking. A dog has peripheral vision way better than ours.. why it has to have its head around your leg and to be looking into your eyes to be considered to be "paying attention" beats the hell out of me.

But it's here to stay and obedience will go the way of agility with it being less about something everyone can try with a dog and more and more about 'dogs for the job'. That's if it ain't already. Herding breeds now dominate and the original breeds whose obedience it tested are fading into the background.

When I started out in obedience with Zoe 12 years ago, the majority of dogs at the highest level in my club were Golden Retrievers.

Watching Crufts agility, DWD and flyball I would say BCs made up the majority of dogs. That they have an ABC (anything but collie) class in agility tells you something!

Dressage has moved the same way with horses, now it is "if you want to compete you must have a Warmblood" and for those that want something smaller we now have the purpose bred dressage Pony.

It appears to be more about how the movement looks rather than how you get it executed,if that makes sense.

[Salukifan]

Whilst I agree that it is a good idea to have some testing for breed function it is never going to be able to replace the purpose that dogs were bred for fully, and compromises will be made and as has already been mentioned all these things can alter the dogs to some extent.

Whippets for example (just now being discussed at my house) you can test their speed and agility and fitness, but that is no way to test the dogs ability to catch and snap its prey. They need strength of under jaw (sadly lacking in some today)and how do we test for that. My rambling point being we risk losing the headpiece that the functional animal needs. I spoke to a Whippet breeder once who had no idea why they need that strong under jaw. As we move further and further away from the time that dogs could be used for their intended purpose we are losing the background knowledge and the dogs are changing.

You've nailed it in one. The ignorance of the link between conformation and purpose has been lost on many folk. A Whippet with weak underjaw can't snap up its prey. A Whippet with excessive hind angulation can't stop and turn at speed because it will lack lateral stability in its hocks.. say that to a lot of folk and they'll look at you like you're crazy.. and the judges put up the dogs with femurs as long as a truck because they "move flashy".

A Clumber Spaniel with exposed haw and extropion.. in a dog that's a heavy cover specialist?? Eye injuries would be a real problem. Which is not doubt why a working clumber spaniel looks like this:

Not this

Edited March 15, 2012 by Telida Whippets

[huski]

. I just hate lagging, slow responses and dogs that look tortured in the ring.

I agree, I also find that a dog that is in drive and focused will naturally make eye contact with the handler anyway. I like my dog to be switched on in the ring rather than looking like she is just going through the motions. Besides, When it comes to my dog she HAS to be really on and focused otherwise we won't make it two steps off the startline before her nose hits the ground :laugh:

[Salukifan]

. I just hate lagging, slow responses and dogs that look tortured in the ring.

I agree, I also find that a dog that is in drive and focused will naturally make eye contact with the handler anyway. I like my dog to be switched on in the ring rather than looking like she is just going through the motions. Besides, When it comes to my dog she HAS to be really on and focused otherwise we won't make it two steps off the startline before her nose hits the ground :laugh:

There's "eye contact" and there's "direct eye contact".

A dog doesn't have to be staring into your eyes to be totally focussed on you.

[Alyosha]

There are additional issues with the sole use of lure (or even live) coursing to test sighthound ability. Coursing is a sport and ability in the coursing field does not always align with hunting ability. Coursing is scored upon the chase. Hounds that outwit the lure, cut corners and catch it mid field receive low scores as the aim is to chase the lure on the wide sweeping course. To succeed at coursing there is no required ability to actually catch something.

So you could take a native hunting sighthound breed like the Hortaya Borzaya, which is still purpose bred as a family based hunting dog, and they may fail miserably on the coursing field. But they will no doubt succeed in their function of feedng themselves and their families.

So yes, coursing may be a good indicator of running ability and soundness, if the hound will participate. But not hunting ability. And many sighthounds that won't chase a lure, or cut corners to rapidly intercept lures on a course are the better hunters. It won't matter what the lure is made of to some dogs, they know full well it is not alive, so not worth their energy. Some have a lighter attitude and will chase it for the sheer enjoyment of running.

edit for correction of ipad spelling...

Edited March 15, 2012 by Alyosha

[Sheridan]

You've nailed it in one. The ignorance of the link between conformation and purpose has been lost on many folk. A Whippet with weak underjaw can't snap up its prey. A Whippet with excessive hind angulation can't stop and turn at speed because it will lack lateral stability in its hocks.. say that to a lot of folk and they'll look at you like you're crazy.. and the judges put up the dogs with femurs as long as a truck because they "move flashy".

A Clumber Spaniel with exposed haw and extropion.. in a dog that's a heavy cover specialist?? Eye injuries would be a real problem. Which is not doubt why a working clumber spaniel looks like this:

This is a dog of beauty.

[huski]

No it doesn't but it's something that my dog did pretty naturally in training. Shes trained to be engaged and in drive so will naturally look animated when working (as opposed to walking next to me looking ahead). I haven't taught her to prance or hold her head high so what she looks like is just what she looks like when in drive.

I personally can't imagine training a dog not to make direct eye contact in heelwork, but then I love the look of more 'stylised' heelwork.

[Salukifan]

No it doesn't but it's something that my dog did pretty naturally in training. Shes trained to be engaged and in drive so will naturally look animated when working (as opposed to walking next to me looking ahead). I haven't taught her to prance or hold her head high so what she looks like is just what she looks like when in drive.

I personally can't imagine training a dog not to make direct eye contact in heelwork, but then I love the look of more 'stylised' heelwork.

You just train the dog to focus at a lower, more left hand point.. like your hip. I dont like the stylised look if it means the handler and dog make contact - and it happens a lot, especially on left hand turns.

[Salukifan]

This is a dog of beauty.

I know... none in the country that I know of. Just for you Sheridan - a bunch of them!

[espinay2]

No it doesn't but it's something that my dog did pretty naturally in training. Shes trained to be engaged and in drive so will naturally look animated when working (as opposed to walking next to me looking ahead). I haven't taught her to prance or hold her head high so what she looks like is just what she looks like when in drive.

I personally can't imagine training a dog not to make direct eye contact in heelwork, but then I love the look of more 'stylised' heelwork.

No problem with doing it as long as it is recognised that it is not a test or example of breed function. And to recognise that by breeding, and selecting as part of that breeding, for dogs that do this, may potentially result in changes to a breed.

[espinay2]

This is a dog of beauty.

I know... none in the country that I know of. Just for you Sheridan - a bunch of them!

I do note some 'heavier' headed dogs in the photo. Drag of the breed perhaps?

[Salukifan]

No problem with doing it as long as it is recognised that it is not a test or example of breed function. And to recognise that by breeding, and selecting as part of that breeding, for dogs that do this, may potentially result in changes to a breed.

And you know what Espinay - I think that's already happening. The shape, and drive levels is changing and emerging reactivity levels in some "sports dogs" is cause for caution IMO.

[espinay2]

No problem with doing it as long as it is recognised that it is not a test or example of breed function. And to recognise that by breeding, and selecting as part of that breeding, for dogs that do this, may potentially result in changes to a breed.

And you know what Espinay - I think that's already happening. The shape, and drive levels is changing and emerging reactivity levels in some "sports dogs" is cause for caution IMO.

Personally, I would agree with you there.

[LizT]

My girls will be happy to test any couches in any furniture store. :laugh:

[huski]

No it doesn't but it's something that my dog did pretty naturally in training. Shes trained to be engaged and in drive so will naturally look animated when working (as opposed to walking next to me looking ahead). I haven't taught her to prance or hold her head high so what she looks like is just what she looks like when in drive.

I personally can't imagine training a dog not to make direct eye contact in heelwork, but then I love the look of more 'stylised' heelwork.

No problem with doing it as long as it is recognised that it is not a test or example of breed function. And to recognise that by breeding, and selecting as part of that breeding, for dogs that do this, may potentially result in changes to a breed.

Well it certainly isn't for my dog sports dog who is a scent hound :laugh:

[espinay2]

No it doesn't but it's something that my dog did pretty naturally in training. Shes trained to be engaged and in drive so will naturally look animated when working (as opposed to walking next to me looking ahead). I haven't taught her to prance or hold her head high so what she looks like is just what she looks like when in drive.

I personally can't imagine training a dog not to make direct eye contact in heelwork, but then I love the look of more 'stylised' heelwork.

No problem with doing it as long as it is recognised that it is not a test or example of breed function. And to recognise that by breeding, and selecting as part of that breeding, for dogs that do this, may potentially result in changes to a breed.

Well it certainly isn't for my dog sports dog who is a scent hound :laugh:

Which is the whole point of the discussion ;)

You may 'like' it - but it is in no way testing your breeds function or purpose as a scent hound.

Edited March 16, 2012 by espinay2

[huski]

Which is the whole point of the discussion ;)

You may 'like' it - but it is in no way testing your breeds function or purpose as a scent hound.

Personally I don’t think sports like obedience can really test the original purpose of working breeds. I think they can show the dog has certain qualities but it’s not the same as testing their original purpose. Of course I know doing obedience isn't testing my dog's original function (except maybe for when we train scent work exercises LOL) but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it or that my dog doesn't enjoy it (even if she makes direct eye contact me with... LOL). With my dog, she actually needs an oulet for all her natural energy and drive, as IMO, she has very strong breed qualities and instincts.

I don’t compete in sports like obedience for any reason other than I enjoy it, and my dog does too. I selected my next breed because it has qualities that will suit what I want to do (obedience, agility, etc). I won’t consider competing in those sports as a display of the dog’s original purpose though.

I do think it’s sad if a dog is intentionally bred not to display qualities that the breed is supposed to have. I know of beagle breeders who intentionally breed for and select beagles with the lowest possible scent drive so they are easier to handle in the show ring. Why even bother in the first place if you are trying to breed away from one of the most important qualities of the breed?

Edited March 16, 2012 by huski

[The Spotted Devil]

Hi lilliSeeing that it is so difficult to test for function in LGDs, how do you suggest we keep the working ability/integrity of LGDs? Should we require that the only people breeding them actually use them for their original purpose? Or that a certain amount of their dogs go to working homes so we can be sure they can still work? How do you suggest we stop them from just becoming big teddy bears and losing their working ability if they are only bred by people who have them for the show ring?

If there is a need in potential homes for working ability, then the working ability will remain. There is no need to regulate for it.However, if as you imagine it eventuated that a breeder group in Australia UK or USA (or any other country which feels the need to regulate everything), decided working ability/integrity was lacking, then such breeder groups could obtain dogs with working ability/integrity from the dogs' countries of origin. It is no problem. :)

I agree with you lilli. I think we also need to welcome with open arms the novice handlers who want to try their hand at a dog sport - even if their dogs are never going to be champions in the sport.

TSD,Did you see the gundog display at Crufts? Would something like that be something that could be used? Able to take direction, retrieve, over an obstacle etc? Maybe a gunshot test too?

I did indeed! There was a display with Labs and Goldens and another with working Springers

It's a really tough one. The question is how much is instinct and how much is good training? In America the retrieving scene is dominated by professional trainers - I have no doubt that changes the breed (predominantly field Labs). The retrieving ability test covers the basic retrieve and dealing with cover/water but I wouldn't be purchasing a pup based on parents having those titles. I have also seen titled dogs of various breeds in various disciplines that don't excite me. The overall package is so important. Then you have the issue of dummies vs game. The former does not demonstrate a soft mouth - something I am told has not been selected for in the show ESS which is not unsurprising. I toss dummies into heavy cover for Em to hunt out (like the Springers in the video) - it is an interesting combination of instinct, confidence, maturity and training. On top of all that, both my dogs come from very experienced breeders who have been in the game for a long time. They don't have the time or energy to title their dogs now but that doesn't preclude them from breeding good dogs. One way that I can thank them for entrusting me with one of their pups is to demonstrate what they are capable of.

[huski]

I did indeed! There was a display with Labs and Goldens and another with working Springers

How great was that! I watched it after it aired. loved it