Crate Training - Positive Association

[miniizzy]

Hello all,

I was hoping for some advice on building positive associations with the crate for a young puppy.

We bought our 9 week old labrador Finn home yesterday, but we are having some problems with creating a positive association with the crate for sleeping, relaxing etc.

I have tried the old 'lure him in with a treat and then praise' over and over, but he just doesn't seem interested in food rewarsd(never thought I would say that!) He gets distracted by my feet, the bedding, even the wires on the crate and doesn't seem too interested in getting the food rewards.

He also MUCH prefers sleeping outside on the gravel that's in the shade. When I take him out to go to the toilet he just plonks himself down in the shade. Eventually after picking him up and taking him to the grass and using the command word (which I don't think he even notices I'm saying??) he goes to the toilet i make a fuss, scratch his ears, give him a treat every now and then, but he just walks straight past me and lies on the pavement?! Yesterday I picked him up and put him into the crate after he fell asleep (which he did a few times). Today I have practiced the 'bed' command with treats but he doesn't seem all that interested in repeating it once he has a treat, and his reluctance never subsided with each treat and praise. He went outside after lunch and play/training time to go to the toilet, I praised, he lay down and started to fall asleep. I tried luring him into his crate which he eventually got, but then wanted to get straight back out. I ended up giving him a couple of his favorite chew toys and closing the door, staying in the room and saying 'shh' for a few minutes, went about my business so he knew I was still there but he cried for about 10 minutes then settled down for a nap.

My main questions after ALL that are:

1) is it acceptable to close them in the crate with a few toys if they start crying or will this form a negative association with the crate?

2) my partner has suggested we buy him an outdoor kennel and see if he prefers to just sleep outside in that and then crate him at night time - while it makes sense if he enjoys it out there, I am worried it will make it hard for me to control where and when he goes to the toilet during the day.

3) are there any really irresistible treats you would recommend? He isn't a fussy eater, has lapped up all his meals so far. I have given him dried liver and also some cut up chicken sticks from purina, I think they're called Ruffs. he isn't all that enthralled by them though.

4) what should I do about him when I am home and he is awake? I have the crating routine down pat for when we go out to work, but when we are at home it seems cruel to make him stay in the crate when he just wants to run around. If I let him run around I cannot control what he is doing if I need to leave the room, but I just can't seem to get him to associate the crate with good things :s

Just to clarify - be slept quite well last night in his crate. Put him to bed at 9.30 when he was sleepy. Out at 10.30 for toilet break before we went to bed. And then again at 12.30 and 3.30. Each time he went to the toilet and went into the crate with minimal fuss, about 10 minutes of crying at 10.30 and the same at 3.30.

He is now napping in his crate in the same room as me, after about 10 minutes of whining he has been asleep for about 15 minutes.

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the awfully long post! Just feeling a bit disheartened, I have done so much research and preparation for crate training but it seems like all the things I've read just aren't happening for us

[megan_]

Where does he get fed? Try putting his food bowl in the crate, he should be interested then. Lots of "good boy". There is a DVD with crate games, but no matter what approach you take make using the crate a bit of a game. Smile, use a nice happy voice, lots of praise and rewards (every second for 20 seconds) when they go in the crate.

All dogs need to eat. When a dog isn't interested in food rewards it is often (not always) because they get too much "free" food. My dogs don't get any free food - they work for everything. This way I don't need to use treats - just their standard food. Saves me a fortune and keeps them healthy and happy to "work".

My dogs only sleep in the crates and use them when needed (eg I'm at a training ground and working with one of them, the other is in the crate).

I personally would never leave a pup in a crate for more than a few hours max. There are some people who say that a pup should be in a crate unless you are actively supervising and interacting with the pup (ie not cooking dinner, talking to partner etc), but I don't see how the pup wouldn't land up being crated for 22+ hours a day, even in a household that does lots of training. I can understand why some working dogs/crazy destructo dogs might need it, but if your dog is a pet it is best that they learn how to live nicely in your house.

If you are home and your dog isn't going on a rampage, why the need to crate them?

[Bundyburger]

The BIG thing to remember is you only brought him home YESTERDAY, stop putting so much pressure on your puppy and on yourself, you can't expect miracles in a day. What you've read WILL happen for you but you need to give him time.

Feed all his meals in his crate. Shut him in there with some toys and just leave him be for a while, he's obviously comfy in it or you wouldn't get him to be so chilled overnight. Understandably during the day he'd rather be exploring and doing fun stuff... For the first week my boy got playtime, time out of his crate then back in to sleep. Sounds to me like he's not interested in the treats because they're too boring. Get some chicken loaf or similar and use that.. It has to be something fun and a novelty.

[miniizzy]

Where does he get fed? Try putting his food bowl in the crate, he should be interested then. Lots of "good boy". There is a DVD with crate games, but no matter what approach you take make using the crate a bit of a game. Smile, use a nice happy voice, lots of praise and rewards (every second for 20 seconds) when they go in the crate.

All dogs need to eat. When a dog isn't interested in food rewards it is often (not always) because they get too much "free" food. My dogs don't get any free food - they work for everything. This way I don't need to use treats - just their standard food. Saves me a fortune and keeps them healthy and happy to "work".

My dogs only sleep in the crates and use them when needed (eg I'm at a training ground and working with one of them, the other is in the crate).

I personally would never leave a pup in a crate for more than a few hours max. There are some people who say that a pup should be in a crate unless you are actively supervising and interacting with the pup (ie not cooking dinner, talking to partner etc), but I don't see how the pup wouldn't land up being crated for 22+ hours a day, even in a household that does lots of training. I can understand why some working dogs/crazy destructo dogs might need it, but if your dog is a pet it is best that they learn how to live nicely in your house.

If you are home and your dog isn't going on a rampage, why the need to crate them?

Hi there,

Thanks for your reply.

Sorry, I should have said I have been feeding his meals in there. Should I be closing the door while he is eating and leaving him for about 10-15 minutes then taking him straight out to go to the toilet?

I agree with you regarding crating them unless you are actively supervising, I think that he would get bored no matter how many toys I put in there and would probably end up with him resenting the crate which is definitely not what I want. I just wasn't sure if it was suitable to let him out in case he doesn't realize he has to hold it until I take him out. In the crate he has to so he doesn't soil his sleeping area but around the living area he could go wherever he chooses if I don't catch him in time (so far I have been).

When discussing crate training with someone who has done it with her dog, she said that the crate allows us to control when and where he goes to the toilet until he can himself and that letting him run around with us inside takes away our control. Not sure if I agree with that, but I'm worried he won't 'get it" if I introduce him to too much too soon.

I am watching him and taking him out every hour, after sleep, play or a drink/food, but again he just wants to lie down on the pavement, sometimes the grass which he is fascinated with, or lie in his waterbowl (true labrador). Sometimes I don't know if I should just let him lie there or if I should keep picking him up and taking him over to his toilet place until he actually goes then

let him fall asleep and carry him into his crate?

[miniizzy]

The BIG thing to remember is you only brought him home YESTERDAY, stop putting so much pressure on your puppy and on yourself, you can't expect miracles in a day. What you've read WILL happen for you but you need to give him time.

Feed all his meals in his crate. Shut him in there with some toys and just leave him be for a while, he's obviously comfy in it or you wouldn't get him to be so chilled overnight. Understandably during the day he'd rather be exploring and doing fun stuff... For the first week my boy got playtime, time out of his crate then back in to sleep. Sounds to me like he's not interested in the treats because they're too boring. Get some chicken loaf or similar and use that.. It has to be something fun and a novelty.

Hi bundyburger,

Thanks for your advice.

I think I may be putting a bit too much pressure on myself to be honest. It can be quite discouraging to read articles/books on crate training that make it sound so easy. One article said she has practiced positive association with puppies and within a day they are running into the crate for treats, so it makes me wonder what i'm doing wrong!

He is a very good puppy, I'm just so worried I will mess it all up by not training him properly!

[Bully]

Check out these links. Excellent info :)

http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/dogs/tips/crate_training.html

http://video.humanesociety.org/video/775461494001

[miniizzy]

Check out these links. Excellent info :)

http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/dogs/tips/crate_training.html

http://video.humanesociety.org/video/775461494001

Thanks Bully, definitely good info!

Maybe I shouldn't be expecting him to spend time in it apart from sleeping just yet :)

[mumof4girls]

Hi miniizzy, we have rogue who is now a 17 week old Airedale terrier. Rogue sleeps in his crate at night but is in a run during the day. When we brought him home we made a run on our deck and it was big enough for his crate as well. I would feed him in the crate but when we were not home he would sleep on the deck not inside the crate. That's just where he would sleep.. He also started to wee in the crate so ( we have a trainer now also) the trainer said to not have the crate in his run so now we have moved the run to under our steps and he has a raised bed and his water bowl. I think he sleeps squished up under the steps lol not on his bed .. The crate now is still on the deck and he sleeps in that at night. I initially fed him in the crate closing the door until just before he finished eating.I would give him a bone in it and leave the door shut longer and longer. Then we shut it at night and he carried on but not as bad as i thought. We gave him his water after tea then took it away and made sure he toileted before bed, then he wasn't needing to toilet all night lol.

He now goes to bed 8.30 and sleeps through till 5.30/6am ..

Crate training clicked for me when we got a trainer as I was babying him and letting him fool me. I was sleeping in the lounge and taking him to the toilet every 2 hrs " Stupid Me!

He loves his run , happily goes in even when we are home' his crate he tolerates it lol but he sleeps all night so he must be comfortable in it.. I think your pup maybe young to be in a kennel they do love being with the family..

Anyway good luck it is hard work but if you make it through these early days it does get better :-)

[miniizzy]

Hi miniizzy, we have rogue who is now a 17 week old Airedale terrier. Rogue sleeps in his crate at night but is in a run during the day. When we brought him home we made a run on our deck and it was big enough for his crate as well. I would feed him in the crate but when we were not home he would sleep on the deck not inside the crate. That's just where he would sleep.. He also started to wee in the crate so ( we have a trainer now also) the trainer said to not have the crate in his run so now we have moved the run to under our steps and he has a raised bed and his water bowl. I think he sleeps squished up under the steps lol not on his bed .. The crate now is still on the deck and he sleeps in that at night. I initially fed him in the crate closing the door until just before he finished eating.I would give him a bone in it and leave the door shut longer and longer. Then we shut it at night and he carried on but not as bad as i thought. We gave him his water after tea then took it away and made sure he toileted before bed, then he wasn't needing to toilet all night lol.

He now goes to bed 8.30 and sleeps through till 5.30/6am ..

Crate training clicked for me when we got a trainer as I was babying him and letting him fool me. I was sleeping in the lounge and taking him to the toilet every 2 hrs " Stupid Me!

He loves his run , happily goes in even when we are home' his crate he tolerates it lol but he sleeps all night so he must be comfortable in it.. I think your pup maybe young to be in a kennel they do love being with the family..

Anyway good luck it is hard work but if you make it through these early days it does get better :-)

Thanks mumof4girls, that's very helpful.

My worry is how he will cope when we go back to work next week. Both of us work all day, we are new to the area and don't really trust our neighbours to let him out halfway through the day, no family and friends that's live close enough to us to come over either and so far we haven't really found a pet sitter that we like the look of in this area either.

Our plan was to put the crate with his bedding and a few safe toys up against the dog door which leads out to a sectioned off area of paving and grass. I worry, though, that he doesn't see his crate as his bed even though he sleeps in it ok at night. As soon as we go outside for toilet time he either thinks it's play time with the grass or sleep time on the grass/paving. That makes me think that he could possibly start toileting in his crate during the day instead of on the grass. So far he has been going on the grass each time we take him out though, no accidents in his crate.

I thought this was a really good plan until I realized how much he likes outdoors and how he'll choose to fall asleep anywhere BUT the crate. When I go to work I obviously won't be able to watch and correct him like I am know so he could learn some bad behaviours.

I am thinking of moving his sectioned off outdoor area to the other side of the back garden which has a large under cover paved area, and then extending it out to include a small run of grass. He can sleep inside at night and come in whwn we are home, but when I'm out maybe buy him a raised bed to go in the sheltered area (the breeder has these in all the kennelsbut the puppies mostly slept under them on the cool ground) in lieu of the crate and dog door and he can stay out there?

Or I could confine him to the bathroom with pee pads and his bed and as he gets older hopefully I can move him outdoors when we go out. Only down side is I don't want to confuse him about going to the toilet inside..

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? I am becoming so disheartened about my plans possibly not working. It's a bit ridiculous, I know, but I am a worry wart!!

Edited March 14, 2012 by miniizzy

[megan_]

What's wrong with him having a snooze under a tree? Why does it always have to be the crate?

I think you need to accept that you, your partner and your pup will make mistakes along the way. You won't always be there to supervise him. This is okay :-).

TRy to leave him alone for a few hours this week so he gets used to being alone.

[minimax]

I thought this was a really good plan until I realized how much he likes outdoors and how he'll choose to fall asleep anywhere BUT the crate. When I go to work I obviously won't be able to watch and correct him like I am know so he could learn some bad behaviours.

Why does he have to sleep in the crate during the day? Why is it so bad if he sleeps somewhere he loves? Doesn't it matter more if he's happy, rather than sleeping during the day in the "right" place?

[miniizzy]

Minimax and Megan - I personally don't mind if he sleeps outside during the day, I just thought that would defeat the purpose of crate training so he learns where an appropriate toilet place is and not to soil where he sleeps.

I have also read a few posts on here that say young puppies shouldn't be left alone outside unattended because it's not safe?

I have fenced off a small section of garden and am heading to bunnings to buy some chicken wire to cover the sandy areas because he has also taken a liking to eating rocks, so am going to cover them up. Maybe I should start leaving him out during the day then and bringing him in when we are home, crate only for night.

Edited because I missed out words, I think faster then I can type!

Edited March 14, 2012 by miniizzy

[minimax]

Minimax and Megan - I personally don't mind if he sleeps outside during the day, I just thought that would defeat the purpose of crate training so he learns where an appropriate toilet place is and not to soil where he sleeps.

I have also read a few posts on here that say young puppies shouldn't be left alone outside unattended because it's not safe?

I have fenced off a small section of garden and am heading to bunnings to buy some chicken wire to cover the sandy areas because he has also taken a liking to eating rocks, so am going to cover them up. Maybe I should start leaving him out during the day then and bringing him in when we are home, crate only for night.

Edited because I missed out words, I think faster then I can type!

Crate training doesn't mean he has to sleep in the crate every single time he sleeps. As long as he's okay in there when you put him in there. But don't forget - he's only been with you a few days!

Sleeping under a tree is also probably a lot cooler than the crate, depending on what's in it and where it is.

I tried to make the crate my pups "happy place" but 99.99999% of the time she won't go in there to sleep voluntarily, she decided her den would be under the dining roon table, not the crate. And because I'm more about her being safe and happy rather than sticking to my strict crate training ideas - I let her keep under the table as her happy place.

If you were trapped in one spot all night (the crate), would you be likely to go there voluntarily if there were better options available (ie: under a tree or under a table?).

My pup is now 5 months old and it really took a lot of work for me to let go of my "I must crate train and I must do this and this and this" and relax a bit. Though I still feel like a failure because she cries and screams if she's crated during the day, even for 1 minute lol

edited to add: puppies naturally won't want to toilet where they sleep - it's more about teaching where the appropriate place to toilet is, rather than teaching where NOT to go (in my opinion. some may disagree). Sleeping in a crate when no one is home isn't teaching him where to pee.

Edited March 15, 2012 by minimax

[miniizzy]

Minimax and Megan - I personally don't mind if he sleeps outside during the day, I just thought that would defeat the purpose of crate training so he learns where an appropriate toilet place is and not to soil where he sleeps.

I have also read a few posts on here that say young puppies shouldn't be left alone outside unattended because it's not safe?

I have fenced off a small section of garden and am heading to bunnings to buy some chicken wire to cover the sandy areas because he has also taken a liking to eating rocks, so am going to cover them up. Maybe I should start leaving him out during the day then and bringing him in when we are home, crate only for night.

Edited because I missed out words, I think faster then I can type!

Crate training doesn't mean he has to sleep in the crate every single time he sleeps. As long as he's okay in there when you put him in there. But don't forget - he's only been with you a few days!

Sleeping under a tree is also probably a lot cooler than the crate, depending on what's in it and where it is.

I tried to make the crate my pups "happy place" but 99.99999% of the time she won't go in there to sleep voluntarily, she decided her den would be under the dining roon table, not the crate. And because I'm more about her being safe and happy rather than sticking to my strict crate training ideas - I let her keep under the table as her happy place.

If you were trapped in one spot all night (the crate), would you be likely to go there voluntarily if there were better options available (ie: under a tree or under a table?).

My pup is now 5 months old and it really took a lot of work for me to let go of my "I must crate train and I must do this and this and this" and relax a bit. Though I still feel like a failure because she cries and screams if she's crated during the day, even for 1 minute lol

edited to add: puppies naturally won't want to toilet where they sleep - it's more about teaching where the appropriate place to toilet is, rather than teaching where NOT to go (in my opinion. some may disagree). Sleeping in a crate when no one is home isn't teaching him where to pee.

I think I have read so many books/articles on crate training and the do's and donts that I have become a little bit of a control freak about following things to a tee. My partner and I have to do some grocery shopping today, so will leave him in his crate pushed up against the dog door and see where he ends up. If he keeps going outside I'll just let him sleep where he wants during the day. I guess as long as he goes toilet in the right place (which he seems to be getting an has been doing very well in) then I should just let him be.

Thanks guys, having a puppy is much harder then I remember it being!!

[**Super_Dogs**]

I would say I have succssefully crate trained my youngest dogs, however they do not choose to sleep in their crate. This is ok with me.

I think you need to work out what you want to achieve from crate training and create the 'rules' for your puppy based on this. Everyone wants different things. Personally my goals are that I can put my dogs in the crate when needed at home, if we are out or at home, and while at training and competitions and they will relax.

To achieve these goals my puppies do spend time in their crate in all senarios for example when we are home, when we are out, when people are visiting, when we are asleep, just so they learn that crate time means relax. This does not have to be a long time though.

When my last pup was young she used to sleep in her crate, but now she is older she does not (as none of my other dogs do).

If you want some help to build value for the crate I highly recommend Susan Garretts DVD "Crate Training". When I am at training and competitions my dogs cannot wait to get into their crate.

[minimax]

I think I have read so many books/articles on crate training and the do's and donts that I have become a little bit of a control freak about following things to a tee. My partner and I have to do some grocery shopping today, so will leave him in his crate pushed up against the dog door and see where he ends up. If he keeps going outside I'll just let him sleep where he wants during the day. I guess as long as he goes toilet in the right place (which he seems to be getting an has been doing very well in) then I should just let him be.

Thanks guys, having a puppy is much harder then I remember it being!!

I know how you feel! And a lot of the dog people seem to view not crate training as a failure, which puts more pressure on things.

Once I got a bit more relaxed with my crate training ideas, I got a lot happier and so did my pup. She now sleeps in the kitchen and sleeps all the way through the night, as opposed to the 2 or 3 wee breaks during the night. She's pee pad trained but tends to hold on not pee during the night.

It just takes time!

[Kavik]

I think it sounds like you are doing well :)

You have only had the pup for a few days, it takes time to build value for the crate. If you are able to have him crated at night and he is settling after a short period and not howling the house down all night long, you are doing fine and he will catch on.

Have you ried just randomly throwing treats in there for him to find, leaving the door open?

Mine all sleep in their crates at night and will go in on their own during the day sometimes, and are in there for training/competitions/holidays etc

[WeimMe]

Crate training is not mandatory - it's just very handy to have sometimes, and don't feel like a failure if you either choose not to crate train for whatever reason. My older dog isn't crate trained and turned out just fine :)

I will say though, it is handy for toilet training, and containing puppers for short periods so he can't destroy your house but there are other ways you can do both things.

That said, I have just crate trained my puppy and this is how I did it. He was 12 weeks old when I started and the process took me a few weeks to get to the point where he was happy to be in there as I wanted only good things associated with the crate. I left the door open and allowed him to get in the crate himself. When he would fall asleep during the day I'd pick him up and put him on his bed in there.

- I fed him all his meals in the crate.

- Put his bed in there for daytime rests (he had a pen for when I had to go out, the crate was only used if I was home at first).

- Hid small treats in his bedding in the crate for him to discover.

- Used the crate to keep his toys in.

- If I gave him any chewy kind of treats, it would always be in the crate to encourage him to lay quietly for longer periods in it.

After a while he would happily go in there himself to rest during the day, eat his meals, chew his pig ear and fetch his toys etc.

Then the crate became his bed at night instead of the larger pen. He didn't seem to care at all that the door was shut and did not cry at all.

After sleeping in it for 3 or 4 nights, I started using the crate for short term confinement during the day if I had to go out (for periods of up to 2 hours).

Since you have bought the crate, you might as well persevere with getting him used to it. Other people have no doubt had much faster results than I did but it was important to me that he didn't develop an aversion to it as he is a VERY stubborn puppy!

Good luck and keep going - it really does just take time.

Edited March 15, 2012 by WeimMe

[SupaDupa Mini Cooper]

Perhaps what we did was not "crate training" but we were very matter of fact when we bought Cooper home at 12 weeks.

He slept in the crate at night right from the first day (we did let him out the first night half way through when he started howling, but when we took him to the backyard he didn't go, so we learnt that lesson), and has every night since (with the exception of 2 nights this last week when he had the Elizabethan collar on his head and he wouldn't have fitted in there very well). I did put a worn tshirt of mine into the crate with him for the first few nights so he had a "person" smell and to not feel too lonely. Every time we went out he was put in the crate - like it or not. He howled about it for the first week or so, but he learnt that howling didn't get him let out. After about a month, one night after taking him out for his last pit stop I said "time for bed" (the same I say every night) and he voluntarily walked into the crate and laid down. You could have knocked me over with a feather - until then we had to pick him up and place him in the crate. Now, each night when we say "time for bed" he will go to his crate. This to me indicates that he has learnt the association with sleeping at night and the crate. He will not voluntarily go into the crate in the day time (even if we say "time for bed") - he thinks that the couch is his bed... But we are still matter of fact about it, and he doesn't protest. Cooper is now almost too big for his crate, and we plan to set up the laundry as his den for night time and when we are out. He has been restricted to this room a few times when we have had to go out for the day - the first time being a week after we brought him home (bad timing). We had fully expected that he would need to toilet in this time, so we made a litter tray fake grass toilet spot for him in one corner but he didn't use it.

As far as toileting, our floor are tiled so it wasn't a huge issue if he had an accident. We have the sliding door open enough for him to fit out, and after encouraging regularly in the first weeks, he now just goes outside himself. We do still have to make sure when we let him out of his crate that he goes straight outside otherwise he can get a bit too excited and we end up with a puddle but he seems to be learning that he needs to go straight out, and he will head straight for the door when he is let out.

One thing we didn't do was put him in the crate when we were still home (except for nights), because he would have gone nuts to see us but not be able to be with us.

Make crating what you want it to be and just stick to it. They soon learn the drill and you soon learn their patterns :)

Wishing you all the best.

[mumof4girls]

I wanted to crate train as we are intending to go camping a lot with him and also for agility so he is happy to be in a safe place ie the crate..

Rogue is in his run during the day he now holds on till we get home at 3.30. When he was little in his run I had a cat litter tray with sand in it.. His toilet spot outside has the same surface but he would only occasionally use it prefering to wee on the deck.. No big deal and he would do his poos outside so that was fab..

I like you worry if I'm doing ok bit we got a trainer which has been gold :-) I ring him when I have a concern and he

has been very direct with me which I like :-)..

Good luck it is early days i'm sure you will do fine..and I'm

happy rogue is content and really if he doesn't sleep on his

bed then it's only me that is making it a big deal lol I just

want him to be comfy and happy ..

I think we read to much, I have so many puppy books and it does get confusing, you want to do it right but I think in hindsight following my instincts would have been better

:-)

Edited March 15, 2012 by mumof4girls