BC Crazy Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) There are enough border collie and border collie crosses in the shelter and rescue system as is because of irreponsible people who are " so keen" for their little girl to have a litter so they can have one just like her who dont health screen and dont screen the homes, so they end up going to people who have an apartment or a tiny little suburban courtyard where they work all day and the dog starts barking etc and becomes a nusiance because it doesnt have enough mental stimulation. border collies are high energy and high intelligence and should not be bred by people who have no idea about what they are doing... sorry for the rant I am just sick of cases that like... its heartbreaking. I think if you are going to breed it should take more then just your dog having main papers... any byb can get hold of a main registered dog if they shonk around enough and find one from a breeder who puts them all on mains.... breeding takes knowledge patience money and alot of time and dedication and shouldnt be undertaken lightly. Leave it to the people who know what they are doing Whilst i agree with what you are saying thundercat, it is not just BYB's dogs who end up in the pound. Recently an absolutely beautiful little 4 month old fella has come to our park and he was from the pound. Original buyers decided he was too much work so dumped him there. Pound called registered breeder from which this pup came not more then 2 months previous and guess what? Registered breeder didn't want to know abt it, they had their money. Luckily for this beautiful little boy he is now with a wonderful family who love him dearly. Yes puppy farms and byb are a problem with offloading to whoever, but it annoys me when ppl say that ONLY byb dogs end up there. Yes, this is true too. There are good & bad in all & that includes registered breeders, sadly enough. I'd like to think there wouldn't be very many careless reg. breeders out there that last any length of time though. That is a very sad story about that poor little bloke. I am so glad he found a loving new home. My rescue boy was a pure breed & I had him 14.5 years, beautiful dog he was so yes it does happen but I think the % would be slim IMHO. Edited June 5, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.mister Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) Whilst I agree with everyone's sentiments I don't think bashing someone over the head about it is the way to go, particularly as they haven't come back to further explain themselves. From experience it makes people defensive and less likely to listen. eta: When I was sixteen, I went onto a BC specific forum and asked about the process of breeding out of curiosity. I had always loved borders but wasn't really aware of the show ring or anything. I had always dreamt of becoming a breeder. What ensued was about 16 pages of accusations, name calling and just general nastiness. I was accused of being a BYB, even though I had no dogs at the time. :laugh: It took me two years to work up the courage to go on another forum - that was DOL. I was ignorant back then but I'm not now. I have mentors in the breed and plan on showing as soon as I'm in a position to own a dog. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I think we, the 'initiated', take for granted the basic knowledge we have about how bad BYBing is and so on and so forth. Edited June 5, 2012 by mr.mister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 There are enough border collie and border collie crosses in the shelter and rescue system as is because of irreponsible people who are " so keen" for their little girl to have a litter so they can have one just like her who dont health screen and dont screen the homes, so they end up going to people who have an apartment or a tiny little suburban courtyard where they work all day and the dog starts barking etc and becomes a nusiance because it doesnt have enough mental stimulation. border collies are high energy and high intelligence and should not be bred by people who have no idea about what they are doing... sorry for the rant I am just sick of cases that like... its heartbreaking. I think if you are going to breed it should take more then just your dog having main papers... any byb can get hold of a main registered dog if they shonk around enough and find one from a breeder who puts them all on mains.... breeding takes knowledge patience money and alot of time and dedication and shouldnt be undertaken lightly. Leave it to the people who know what they are doing Whilst i agree with what you are saying thundercat, it is not just BYB's dogs who end up in the pound. Recently an absolutely beautiful little 4 month old fella has come to our park and he was from the pound. Original buyers decided he was too much work so dumped him there. Pound called registered breeder from which this pup came not more then 2 months previous and guess what? Registered breeder didn't want to know abt it, they had their money. Luckily for this beautiful little boy he is now with a wonderful family who love him dearly. Yes puppy farms and byb are a problem with offloading to whoever, but it annoys me when ppl say that ONLY byb dogs end up there. This is exactly why you should never buy from anyone that claims they breed great family pets as opposed to show or performance dogs. Those churning out lots of litters purely for the pet market are less likley to take a puppy back because it cuts into their profit. Those breeding for a purpose, not to make money, will take a puppy back with no hesitation because it is never about the money. There are many breeders listed on DOL, especially in Qld that have litter after litter of coloured puppies seemingly available all year round and their ads all claim they breed great pets. The breeders you should be looking at, breed 1-3 litters per year on average and breed good Border Collies for a purpose. With show breeders most litters produce one or two show puppies, the rest go as high quality pets and are much better dogs than those "bred to be pets". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 :) no they werent experts but they atleast they would have had a mentor and done research into what they were doing, not just the notion of ok I want puppies I need a dog and bitch and 9 weeks later they will come out all fluffy with their eyes open and waggy tails like on a disney cartoon. :) I dont expect every first timer to be experts but people should be properly educated At some stage they would have had no mentor and had done no research. :) I would have thought that a question like this is the first step in being properly educated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 :) no they werent experts but they atleast they would have had a mentor and done research into what they were doing, not just the notion of ok I want puppies I need a dog and bitch and 9 weeks later they will come out all fluffy with their eyes open and waggy tails like on a disney cartoon. :) I dont expect every first timer to be experts but people should be properly educated At some stage they would have had no mentor and had done no research. :) I would have thought that a question like this is the first step in being properly educated. Your mentor is usually the person who sells you a puppy suitable for show/breeding or the one who helps you source the right dog to start with, so you should have a mentor right from the start if you buy a main registered puppy. Before the main/limit register and all the health testing came in we sometimes had people looking for stud dogs for registered pet bitches and their mentor would be the breeder who thought the bitch was worth breeding and suited one of their dogs. We used to usually get them to bring the bitch to a show so several of us could have a look at her and decide if she was good enough to breed. These days though the registration and health tests all come first and any well bred main register bitch would have been sold with all the details about the health tests. etc, along with the papers. If someone that doesn't yet have a bitch asks "how do I become a breeder" that is when you start from scratch educating them. If they already have the bitch then they should at least know the basics and the question should be "I have a main registered bitch who has had all her health tests, where do I find a stud dog?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Each to their own but someone who has done no research and has no sort of mentor figure to learn from doesnt have any business messing with a litter of helpless little lives who didnt ask to be put on this earth. Unless someone is breeding to better or improve a breed what ever way you want to put it, they shouldn't be doing it. anyone can breed a good pet but it takes a dedicated breeder to produce an outstanding representation of the breed. Look at german shepherds for example , the pet dogs you see on the BYB market look nothing like the show standard all they have when it comes to resemblance would be the markings... stance and everything else is way off and dogs like Labradors and dont get me started on staffordshires what people class as a purebred staffy these days astonishes me , they are skinny puney little things that look nothing like the breed standard but yet they still charge the earth for low quality pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 :) no they werent experts but they atleast they would have had a mentor and done research into what they were doing, not just the notion of ok I want puppies I need a dog and bitch and 9 weeks later they will come out all fluffy with their eyes open and waggy tails like on a disney cartoon. :) I dont expect every first timer to be experts but people should be properly educated At some stage they would have had no mentor and had done no research. :) I would have thought that a question like this is the first step in being properly educated. Your mentor is usually the person who sells you a puppy suitable for show/breeding or the one who helps you source the right dog to start with, so you should have a mentor right from the start if you buy a main registered puppy. Before the main/limit register and all the health testing came in we sometimes had people looking for stud dogs for registered pet bitches and their mentor would be the breeder who thought the bitch was worth breeding and suited one of their dogs. We used to usually get them to bring the bitch to a show so several of us could have a look at her and decide if she was good enough to breed. These days though the registration and health tests all come first and any well bred main register bitch would have been sold with all the details about the health tests. etc, along with the papers. If someone that doesn't yet have a bitch asks "how do I become a breeder" that is when you start from scratch educating them. If they already have the bitch then they should at least know the basics and the question should be "I have a main registered bitch who has had all her health tests, where do I find a stud dog?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Your mentor is usually the person who sells you a puppy suitable for show/breeding or the one who helps you source the right dog to start with, so you should have a mentor right from the start if you buy a main registered puppy. Before the main/limit register and all the health testing came in we sometimes had people looking for stud dogs for registered pet bitches and their mentor would be the breeder who thought the bitch was worth breeding and suited one of their dogs. We used to usually get them to bring the bitch to a show so several of us could have a look at her and decide if she was good enough to breed. These days though the registration and health tests all come first and any well bred main register bitch would have been sold with all the details about the health tests. etc, along with the papers. If someone that doesn't yet have a bitch asks "how do I become a breeder" that is when you start from scratch educating them. If they already have the bitch then they should at least know the basics and the question should be "I have a main registered bitch who has had all her health tests, where do I find a stud dog?" To buy a MR bitch from a breeder suitable to be a mentor demands a certain amount of knowledge in the first place. A newbie is unlikely to have that. The more likely scenario is that they buy from one of the not so good breeders and are not mentored in anyway. The breeder suitable to be a mentor is also unlikely to sell a MR pup to a newbie. It might not even occur to a newbie to contact the breeder as they might not realise that is the done thing. Or they have a totally unregistered bitch. Or they have a bitch on LR and not realise they can't breed it. Anyway we have lost the chance to educate this person as some of the responses were IMO too harsh. I had 3 people in my last puppy class that thought it would be nice be breed their oodles. After a descriptive narration from me of what happened when I nearly lost my beloved bitch having pups they all went and got their dogs desexed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) In the original post I was under the impression that these people were looking to buy a BC puppy. I must of been mistaken cause next thing they want to breed them. I'm a little at a loss with this one now but it is probably just me Edited June 5, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 The OP was looking for a puppy. Then the thread was bumped by someone asking about breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 In the original post I was under the impression that these people were looking to buy a BC puppy. I must of been mistaken cause next thing they want to breed them. I'm a little at a loss with this one now but it is probably just me You can clearly see the OP doesn't come back to the thread after the initial post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Your mentor is usually the person who sells you a puppy suitable for show/breeding or the one who helps you source the right dog to start with, so you should have a mentor right from the start if you buy a main registered puppy. Before the main/limit register and all the health testing came in we sometimes had people looking for stud dogs for registered pet bitches and their mentor would be the breeder who thought the bitch was worth breeding and suited one of their dogs. We used to usually get them to bring the bitch to a show so several of us could have a look at her and decide if she was good enough to breed. These days though the registration and health tests all come first and any well bred main register bitch would have been sold with all the details about the health tests. etc, along with the papers. If someone that doesn't yet have a bitch asks "how do I become a breeder" that is when you start from scratch educating them. If they already have the bitch then they should at least know the basics and the question should be "I have a main registered bitch who has had all her health tests, where do I find a stud dog?" To buy a MR bitch from a breeder suitable to be a mentor demands a certain amount of knowledge in the first place. A newbie is unlikely to have that. The more likely scenario is that they buy from one of the not so good breeders and are not mentored in anyway. The breeder suitable to be a mentor is also unlikely to sell a MR pup to a newbie. It might not even occur to a newbie to contact the breeder as they might not realise that is the done thing. Or they have a totally unregistered bitch. Or they have a bitch on LR and not realise they can't breed it. Anyway we have lost the chance to educate this person as some of the responses were IMO too harsh. I had 3 people in my last puppy class that thought it would be nice be breed their oodles. After a descriptive narration from me of what happened when I nearly lost my beloved bitch having pups they all went and got their dogs desexed. Every breeder I have known in the breed has been started off by either breeder of their bitch, the owner of the sire or a breeder who has allowed them to use their dog. The breeders most likely to act as mentors are in fact the ones most likely to sell a MR bitch but these days it is more usual to do it in dual names to start with. I have mentored several breeders over the years and am always happy to help new people to the breed but the basics of Main Registration and Health Testing come first before anything further can be discussed. I don't think my post was too harsh, I was simply asking the most basic questions anyone that already owns a main registered bitch, should be able to answer. 20 years ago things were very different but a 4 year old bitch should have been sold with all the required information. If they had come back with answers, even just that she is main registered, I would be happy to help from there. mr.mister asked some very interesting questions on here a couple of years ago as she was doing advance research, well before buying a puppy. I contacted her, have put her in contact with some other breeders I trust and together we will help her get off to the right start when her life allows her to show and breed Border Collies. I am currently in contact with several new or yet to be breeders who regularly ask questions of me and some of the other older breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Every breeder I have known in the breed has been started off by either breeder of their bitch, the owner of the sire or a breeder who has allowed them to use their dog. The breeders most likely to act as mentors are in fact the ones most likely to sell a MR bitch but these days it is more usual to do it in dual names to start with. I have mentored several breeders over the years and am always happy to help new people to the breed but the basics of Main Registration and Health Testing come first before anything further can be discussed. I don't think my post was too harsh, I was simply asking the most basic questions anyone that already owns a main registered bitch, should be able to answer. 20 years ago things were very different but a 4 year old bitch should have been sold with all the required information. If they had come back with answers, even just that she is main registered, I would be happy to help from there. mr.mister asked some very interesting questions on here a couple of years ago as she was doing advance research, well before buying a puppy. I contacted her, have put her in contact with some other breeders I trust and together we will help her get off to the right start when her life allows her to show and breed Border Collies. I am currently in contact with several new or yet to be breeders who regularly ask questions of me and some of the other older breeders. I didn't view your response as harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I don't think any of the comments were "too harsh" IMHO. I have often wondered how people start off breeding. Not that I have any inclination to do so.It would be too heartbreaking for me if anything went wrong with the litter or when it comes time to sell the puppies. I just think I could part with any of them So I would be broke in a very short time. Not that I would think there would be much, if any money to be made when done correctly. With all the vet bills & alike. So I am very thankful to all the reputable & dedicated breeders out there who I think just do a amazing job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) :) I agree BC I couldn't undertake such a task if one of the puppies died or something happened to mummy or if I made a mistake and sold one to the wrong person no matter how much I tried to screen them I would go into depression mode I think. to the proper ethical responsible breeders who make it possible for people to own quality puppies Edited June 6, 2012 by thundercat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PooMother Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) I consider myself very fortunate as I scored big time finding a fabulous breeder and mentor who I have gotten a MR bitch from. I didn't just pull them from thin air though. I had been to a few shows, gone through websites, watched dogs and puppies of the breeders at shows, watched how they interacted with others .....gosh I sound like a stalker, then after talking to the breeder I started to go along to shows and meet them there and offered my services with helping out......hoping to have my first litter this year. I still hang with them at shows and outside of the doggy world, have found myself a beautiful friend in the process. Edited June 6, 2012 by PooMother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Congratulations Poomother You have found an awesome mentor for guidance and managed to make a wonderful new friend at the same time. This is the point I was trying to make before, that people should go about breeding this way, not the alternative of ok my bitch is in heat oh there is a canine of the opposite sex lets see if they can get a tie :| I bet your puppies will spoilt rotten and cute as buttons :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PooMother Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Oh never will any puppies be spoilt in this house nor the adult ones....................... :D In all seriousness though, from the first meeting till now it's been nearly 4 years. They do ALL testing on their stock as I have done on my girl, well she was DNA or parent clear anyway but we are talking hips/elbows/gonioscopy and are helping me every step of the way, only a phone call or car trip away oh and we show as well. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Way to go Poomother !! Hats off to you for doing things correctly & also your mentor who has taken the time to share their very valuable knowledge with you. I think your very brave PM :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PooMother Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Thanks BC. Well we'll see how brave I am when the time comes on the up side I have a few friends who may be interested and who I know are fantastic people and live close by :) although I'm not sure they would spoil I mean care for them in the same manner I do with mine lol but suffice to say people at work have commented that in their next life they want to come back as one of my dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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