Extreme Dog Breeding On Youtube

[trifecta]

Following on from some recent threads, I thought this very topical & food for thought

Please view to the end..... there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Apologies if the link has been posted previously.....

[dubbleyoo]

Wow. That was interesting.

That is like the before and after diet pictures, only this time I liked the before shots. Some of those dogs would be better at mopping floors than their intended purpose. Well done to the person who made that and thanks for sharing trifecta.

[Alyosha]

There was a thread on this not long ago, I can try and find a link as you might like the discussion that was on it.

But from my point of view this video is pretty subjective, and sometimes lacking in credibilty. Just based on the first pictures of the Afghans, it comes across as misinformed and incorrect. The sketch shown of the "afghan" is a drawing of a plains type of Afghan. Without going excessively into recent afghan history, there were two types when they became known in the west. The plains (Bell-Murray) and the mountain type. Modern show afghans are descended from the mountain type, and are little different today. The Bell-Murray type still exists as well.

And mountain type Afghans were never bred to be suited to hunting in the desert. They are a mountain breed bred to hunt in extreme terrain and their coat and physical build reflects this.

Zardin was the blueprint for the modern standards, pics from 1905: http://www.google.com.au/search?q=zardin&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=kJZeT7i8OaWViAfywsDxBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=672

So what that tells me about this video, straight off the bat is that the maker of this video has searched for the most diverse photos possible, to prove their point. So objectivity is completely out the window, and much credibility goes with it.

So although it's not a bad idea, it falls over which is a shame.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Alyosha

[Bjelkier]

There was a thread on this not long ago, I can try and find a link as you might like the discussion that was on it.

But from my point of view this video is pretty subjective, and sometimes lacking in credibilty. Just based on the first pictures of the Afghans, it comes across as misinformed and incorrect. The sketch shown of the "afghan" is a drawing of a plains type of Afghan. Without going excessively into recent afghan history, there were two types when they became known in the west. The plains (Bell-Murray) and the mountain type. Modern show afghans are descended from the mountain type, and are little different today. The Bell-Murray type still exists as well.

And mountain type Afghans were never bred to be suited to hunting in the desert. They are a mountain breed bred to hunt in extreme terrain and their coat and physical build reflects this.

Zardin was the blueprint for the modern standards, pics from 1905: http://www.google.com.au/search?q=zardin&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=kJZeT7i8OaWViAfywsDxBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=672

So what that tells me about this video, straight off the bat is that the maker of this video has searched for the most diverse photos possible, to prove their point. So objectivity is completely out the window, and much credibility goes with it.

So although it's not a bad idea, it falls over which is a shame.

I get that impression as well.

Also to compare old photos of dogs, not brushed or well presented to a stacked fully groomed show dog.....come on.

The OES is a perfect example of that. OES do not walk around looking like they do normally in the show ring, that look takes hours upon hours to achieve.

[RallyValley]

Ah yes I have had this link sent to me before, I am unable to get past the text at the past which is grossly inaccurate!!! The person who created the video makes their bias and lack of knowledge known in the first minute so I have never bothered to continue on.

[Alyosha]

And there is a Basset used later that looks like an aged and obese one. Being compared to an old photo of a hunting condition dog...

[Missymoo]

Biased, uneducated..It's not hard to make any breed to look bad...

Edited March 13, 2012 by Missymoo

[Boronia]

There was a thread on this not long ago, I can try and find a link as you might like the discussion that was on it.

But from my point of view this video is pretty subjective, and sometimes lacking in credibilty. Just based on the first pictures of the Afghans, it comes across as misinformed and incorrect. The sketch shown of the "afghan" is a drawing of a plains type of Afghan. Without going excessively into recent afghan history, there were two types when they became known in the west. The plains (Bell-Murray) and the mountain type. Modern show afghans are descended from the mountain type, and are little different today. The Bell-Murray type still exists as well.

And mountain type Afghans were never bred to be suited to hunting in the desert. They are a mountain breed bred to hunt in extreme terrain and their coat and physical build reflects this.

Zardin was the blueprint for the modern standards, pics from 1905: http://www.google.com.au/search?q=zardin&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=kJZeT7i8OaWViAfywsDxBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=672

So what that tells me about this video, straight off the bat is that the maker of this video has searched for the most diverse photos possible, to prove their point. So objectivity is completely out the window, and much credibility goes with it.

So although it's not a bad idea, it falls over which is a shame.

I get that impression as well.

Also to compare old photos of dogs, not brushed or well presented to a stacked fully groomed show dog.....come on.

The OES is a perfect example of that. OES do not walk around looking like they do normally in the show ring, that look takes hours upon hours to achieve.

I agree Bjelkier, it would be interesting to see the dogs the earlier photos bathed and brushed.

Regarding the background music, I wonder how much difference it would make us feel if it played music from Grease or Alice Cooper :laugh:

[Angeluca]

Yes this clip only shows the extreme before and after clips, but that should favor those who don't exaggerate to the point of extreme.

The Afghan (modern)in the clip looks as if the body fur might actually touch the ground, and i have seen some pictures of ones that do. Regardless of being mountain bred that still would hinder it's purpose, imho. Same for the Cockers How in hell would a cocker run through thick grass or forest with that fur??????

Altho I know it may not, this should only work in favor of the breeders who don't have dogs with extremely long fur.

And some person sees a peke (for example) with fur like that buys one from a breeder and it doesn't have the coat therefore the dog in their eyes is wrong cause it don't look like Ch. so and so. How is this good for the good breeders in regards to the public only buying from kennels who produce very long fur?????? You can't even see conformation within all that fur.

then there are breeds I know are very controversial eg, bulldog, toy breeds and the german shepherd. I favor the working lines of the german shepherd. There in a prime example in which a breed has been divided for purpose and looks. I honestly believe most show GSD can not perform any of it's original purposes from herding to guard they seem not only to lack form but also drive. And there seems to be quite a few breeds whom are following in this spiral.

I liked the clip yes it was extreme and without getting into specifics as most the public wouldn't know it shows that there are changes in the breed for show that are completely useless in life. Show dogs should be the one whom represent their breed in health conformation and ability, even if a dog doesn't herd it should be seen to have the ability if that is what the breed was for.

[Jed]

I think the plethora of fantastic products to enhance dogs' coats make a huge difference. Differences in early photos and photos of dogs now show more profilic coat, and better groomed coat.

If you compare modern Asian breeds' coats with the coats of the early different, they wouldn't be so different. Pekes get the allover hair look by grooming and product.

English setter - cocker - are now regularly groomed, and probably living where there are no prickles, rough burrs, or brush to catch the coat on, so the coat is not constantly being pulled out.

They are wearing snoods when eating, and they are wearing product which reduces knots, so much less hair is being pulled out.

Years ago when we showed long haired dacshunds - they were treated as pets. They were groomed with brushes and combs, and they were washed with a bar of dog soap, Sunlight soap, or, for special occasions, Johnsons Baby Shampoo. Rumour had it that baby shampoo was not good for them, and it was expensive and difficult to find, so show dogs were mostly washed with soap.

There were no conditioners, but they might have had a vinegar rinse. Or perhaps an olive oil and raw egg treatment before the bath.

They were then allowed to dry naturally. No blow driers, no coat controllers, no product, no drying coats. You simply hoped they wouldn't roll in anything too bad before the show.

The CCCQ showgrounds, entry off Costin St, was totally dirt floored. The benches were timber, liberally coated with dust from show to show. You took towels to sit the dog on, but he was pretty dirty by the end of the day. The dog got out of the car, and walked into vetting, and then into the show area. At aggie shows, there were no "dog facilites", so you tied up the dog to whatever you could find, or hung onto the lead all day.

Early morning starts at ag shows meant a dog with wet feathers into the ring, because he had walked through the long dewy grass of the showgounds. - or you carried him. Difficult if you had 4 entries.

But - no problem. Every other dog was in exactly the same position, so it was a level playing field.

Now, there are carriers and trolleys, and all manner of ways to keep the dog clean and dry. Plus endless product to help the exhibitor, and to keep the coat in great condition.

Angeluca, once a cocker in "full show coat" has run through a few paddocks and a bit of bush, his coat begins to look like those early cockers. I guess Afghans would be the same? Coat never lasts in rough conditions

Same with show horses, if the mane and tail are not cared for on a show horse, they soon disappear.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Jed

[~Anne~]

They're not very good at 'spellink'....

I understand the message but the pics on some are chosen to skew the result.

[Tralee]

Despite the bias, if the health problems listed are accurate then there is an ethical issue.

It then becomes a question of the dogs welfare.

I don't have a show breed, I have a rustic working breed.

So, I look at things from the other end of the discussion.

What glory is there in glamour, when 'all is vanity'?

Indeed

Aren't they pretty enough?

-- like ... 'lillies.'

Px

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tralee

[Rebanne]

The Afghan (modern)in the clip looks as if the body fur might actually touch the ground, and i have seen some pictures of ones that do. Regardless of being mountain bred that still would hinder it's purpose, imho. Same for the Cockers How in hell would a cocker run through thick grass or forest with that fur??????

Altho I know it may not, this should only work in favor of the breeders who don't have dogs with extremely long fur.

if the dogs were being hunted they wouldn't have so much coat, the brush would strip it out. It's because they are kept as pets/show dogs that they get the coats.

[Bjelkier]

Despite the bias, if the health problems listed are accurate then there is an ethical issue.

It then becomes a question of the dogs welfare.

I don't have a show breed, I have a rustic working breed.

So, I look at things from the other end of the discussion.

What glory is there in glamour, when 'all is vanity'?

Indeed

Aren't they pretty enough?

-- like ... 'lillies.'

Px

So what is a show breed exactly?

[Alyosha]

The Afghan (modern)in the clip looks as if the body fur might actually touch the ground, and i have seen some pictures of ones that do. Regardless of being mountain bred that still would hinder it's purpose, imho. Same for the Cockers How in hell would a cocker run through thick grass or forest with that fur??????

Altho I know it may not, this should only work in favor of the breeders who don't have dogs with extremely long fur.

if the dogs were being hunted they wouldn't have so much coat, the brush would strip it out. It's because they are kept as pets/show dogs that they get the coats.

This is my old afghan in pet/working coat. He had, and still has, relatives in the showring with huge coats. The rough and tumble of active life on rough ground tears the coat off. That's the point, better to tear the coat than the dog. :)

Besides, the photos of Zardin and other Afghans from the early 1900s are completely different to the one in the video, which is the point.

[Angeluca]

Jed so your stating that a dog with a 'show coat' is refused to allow it's natural movement though yard play or bushes or whatever, for fear of losing it's pretty coat therefore stripping the dog of all natural behavior and socialization. After decades of this sort of treatment would the dog not loose it's natural instinct and temperament???

Alyosha I don't dispute long coats aren't good I dispute that fact a dog can't act like a dog to keep the coat

Again repeating my last statement where a fine example of breed should also Include Health, conformation and Ability to Breed purpose!!!

I do not dispute it looks good and extreme care of the animal at least to physical health and care over the coat to get a dog to look like that. But What about mental health if a dog is not allowed to run and play with natural stimulation? Don't we blast people on here whom don't walk their dogs enough?

A few genuine questions what sort of exercise do these floor length show coat dogs get? Is hours apon hours of making a dog stand on a table to get groomed good for the dog? Are there possible to many Products getting used to make them look this way? And Lastly having them look like beauty queens really good for the world of dogs as in the human world blasting people creating their small children into made up beauty queen toddlers. Is it any different for a 3-12 mth old pup to be treated in this way?

[Miss B]

The comparisons are pretty over the top, but it is interesting and I can see why pedigree dogs cop a bashing.

Personally, I really disagree with selective breeding for exaggerated, unnatural features. There are some breeds where I am yet to meet a single healthy individual (I am a vet nurse - so I see the good, the bad and the UGLY).

[Rebanne]

Jed so your stating that a dog with a 'show coat' is refused to allow it's natural movement though yard play or bushes or whatever, for fear of losing it's pretty coat therefore stripping the dog of all natural behavior and socialization. After decades of this sort of treatment would the dog not loose it's natural instinct and temperament???

Alyosha I don't dispute long coats aren't good I dispute that fact a dog can't act like a dog to keep the coat

Again repeating my last statement where a fine example of breed should also Include Health, conformation and Ability to Breed purpose!!!

I do not dispute it looks good and extreme care of the animal at least to physical health and care over the coat to get a dog to look like that. But What about mental health if a dog is not allowed to run and play with natural stimulation? Don't we blast people on here whom don't walk their dogs enough?

They do run and play, the coats are "wrapped" to protect them. I have seen photo's of poodles in full show coat swimming in the sea. Once they got home the were washed and dried. Dogs in full coat do have fun and games.

[Alyosha]

Angeluca a great many purebred dog people cringe when a dog with too much coat enters the showring. Because sometimes yes, it does mean that dog lives a restricted lifestyle for the few years it is in the ring. And sometimes that seems obvious. But conversely some owners and exhibitors are very adept at wrapping coat and tying it up out of harms way so the dog can run about like a normal dog. So do we criticise skills in care and maintenance?

Some judges will award it, and some are more astute. Maybe some of the huge immaculate coats are on dogs that don't have the same muscle tone as the slightly broken coated ones? Maybe some judges appreciate being able to see the dog's form, and consider adequate coat is adequate, without being huge. People and dogs are individual.

Oh, and edit to add - it would be a very rare sighthound in general, Afghan or otherwise, that wouldn't take to hunting something small and furry almost instantly. Instincts run deeper than we can comprehend, and in many dogs, function is lying right under the surface of the obedient pet.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Alyosha

[Jed]

Show dogs still run around, but they aren't running though rough scrub etc.as otherwise might. And they just love the extra handling and attention the grooming brings.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Jed