Interesting News Out Of Crufts

[Janba]

From my personal experience limited of pugs I will relate 2 cases among the pugs I have known. The first died from overheating on a mild day and the second made you shudder to be in his presence with the noise of his breathing. They were both ANKC registered and from well known breeders.

Not all pugs have these problems and the good breeders and owners I see post on here and other forums do seem to do their best to breed a healthy pug but obviously that is not always the case. Look at the number of threads on here where pugs have undergone surgery to correct soft palate problems etc.

There are pugs who can compete flyball, agility etc, who have wide open nostrils etc and breathe well but there are also ones with a myriad of problems.

You need to looks at the whole picture and say "what can be done about breeders who breed for wins rather than health?"

ETA This is not just pugs but any breed.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Janba

[Aidan3]

http://dogknobit.com/2012/03/15/why-crufts-should-worry-us/

No need to worry about the 'animal rights zealots', the purebred dog world will do itself in. There are some serious problems with this new scheme, but many of the opinions I see written on it seems to rely on digs at 'animal rights zealots', the slippery slope fallacy, then dies it's death (usually early on) by Godwin's Law.

Your own arguments are much stronger, Jed. Let's have a dispassionate and open-minded look at the facts.

Zackly. Although it is animal rights. I copped a hiding about BSL and docking but it all came to pass. This will too.

Go Peke!! You good thing you

People seem to say I am saying there is nothing wrong with purebred dogs. Incorrect. I am saying - get the proof. Not of a couple of crook dogs, we know that, but of a whole breed, or of a good percentage.

I have no idea why people fail to believe that AR has anything to do with this. At every point, they are telling us what they are doing, yet we are not hearing.

"As the surplus of cats and dogs (artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship - enjoyment at a distance."

-- Ingrid Newkirk, "Just Like Us? Toward a Notion of Animal Rights", Harper's, August 1988, p. 50

Am I an "animal rights nutter"? Or is Telida Whippets an "animal rights nutter"?

[Sheridan]

Am I an "animal rights nutter"? Or is Telida Whippets an "animal rights nutter"?

It's a little disturbing that people concerned about the health and function of pedigree dogs are being labelled animal rights nutters.

[dog_fan]

Am I an "animal rights nutter"? Or is Telida Whippets an "animal rights nutter"?

It's a little disturbing that people concerned about the health and function of pedigree dogs are being labelled animal rights nutters.

It is extremely disturbing and certainly gives the general public more cause for alarm.

If the breeders of dogs, especially dogs that have extremes in their conformation, hide their heads in the sand then members of the public may think the fox is in charge of the hen house and ask for even more restrictions on breeder activities.

It is shameful that people cannot see that the health and welfare of the dogs must be paramount and that dogs need to be able to function.

If a bred cannot mate naturally nor give birth naturally without human intervention then without us the breed would die out. Most people think that is wrong and must be fixed. Most people want dogs to be able to be dogs and to do dog things like run and play and mate and give birth without human intervention.

[Aidan3]

Am I an "animal rights nutter"? Or is Telida Whippets an "animal rights nutter"?

It's a little disturbing that people concerned about the health and function of pedigree dogs are being labelled animal rights nutters.

I'm not convinced that's what is happening here, but I do think that some are dismissing this as an 'animal rights' issue so that they can ignore the more conservative claims of purebred dog enthusiasts.

I also think if you ignore reasonable people who you share common ground with, your cause has no hope at all.

ETA: just to clarify the distinction, I think there really are a minority of vocal 'animal rights nutters' involved with this, but they are not the only party involved.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Aidan2

[Crisovar]

Am I an "animal rights nutter"? Or is Telida Whippets an "animal rights nutter"?

It's a little disturbing that people concerned about the health and function of pedigree dogs are being labelled animal rights nutters.

It is extremely disturbing and certainly gives the general public more cause for alarm.

If the breeders of dogs, especially dogs that have extremes in their conformation, hide their heads in the sand then members of the public may think the fox is in charge of the hen house and ask for even more restrictions on breeder activities.

It is shameful that people cannot see that the health and welfare of the dogs must be paramount and that dogs need to be able to function.

If a bred cannot mate naturally nor give birth naturally without human intervention then without us the breed would die out. Most people think that is wrong and must be fixed. Most people want dogs to be able to be dogs and to do dog things like run and play and mate and give birth without human intervention.

It is bloody shameful that SOME people don't get it right, but it is not complete Breeds and it is not every Breeder, so while everyone is happy to see calls for entire Breeds to be rehashed because we have some fools amongst us forgive those of us that think that is shameful.

Why do some of us get a little angry? Because we have threads across this forum and others that use sweeping insulting statements that toss the entire breed in as one. No one wants to hear about those that are good Breeders it is all :laugh: but it is only a few. Well how about some of you stand up and support the good Breeders instead.

This is like watching a snake swallow its tail.

[Jed]

dog_fan

If a bred cannot mate naturally nor give birth naturally without human intervention then without us the breed would die out. Most people think that is wrong and must be fixed. Most people want dogs to be able to be dogs and to do dog things like run and play and mate and give birth without human intervention

.

dog_fan what is this breed/s which cannot mate or self- whelp please? What % of this breed cannot self whelp? All? Half?

And which is the breed/s which cannot "things dogs do"? And again, what is the percentage of dogs that cannot do that?

Does ANYONE know? There must be some stats out there. I thought maybe terrierman had them. Nope. What are we doing without stats? Why are we doing it?

And don't think I am an apologist for any breed. As a breeder, I did all the health checks, and in fact, I made sure that things which are not mentioned, like narrow ear canals and elongated soft palates, which I consider detrimental, are bred away from, as did/do with 98% of my peers. In all breeds.

So, and I keep asking, where are these unhealthy dogs? Show me the studies?

Janba, were those sickly pugs show pugs, or pet pugs

Puggles attested that pugs were very sickly,breeders attest here that they are not sickly. Apparently a lot of pugs are sickly. There seems to be a fine line between healthy and sicko,. Could breeders be stepping over that line accidentally/on purpose?

Should pugs be banned? Should the standard be changed to call for a nose at least 10cm long?

But, pugs were mentioned in the doco as having screw tails which caused problems, yet they seemed to have the same tails 100 years ago.

Aidan, I can't understand why you can't believe AR has anything to do with this? They have already caused huge inroads to the fancy and to x bred dogs? And of course, to remove dogs from the planet, you would first have to remove purebred dogs. They are the ones with committees and structure for breeding. Then x bred dogs could be removed by wholesale neuter laws --- which many attempts have been made to bring in - in Australia, and failed. A few dogs would slip by, but not too many, and then viola, 5 years, no dogs.

Ah, Crisovar, I am not angry in the slightest. I told them about BSL and about docking before the events, and like Aidan, they rubbished me, or accused me of being "paranoid", but of course, I was correct, and they were wrong. BSL laws will never be repealed, and more and more dogs will disappear, most of them in no way worthy of being knocked off.

Not that I really expected anyone here to actively do anything, but you should be aware. :)

They are your dogs too. Labrador? Cattledog? Setter? x bred? Doesn't make any difference, the only difference is the time line. Your breed will be phased out too.

And all because purebred dogs are so unhealthy ..... but where is the evidence? Show me the evidence. What has been used to call these dogs unhealthy?

[Are You Serious Jo]

Standards can be changed all people like but it won't change the fact some breeders will still use bad breeding practice. The fact there ars perfectly functional individuals within breeds shows that the standards aren't the issue.

[Janba]

Janba, were those sickly pugs show pugs, or pet pugs

One was shown and one a pet but from parents who were shown. There really should be no difference in health between the show and pet pups from one litter or from one breeder. The difference between a show quality dog and a pet quality one should be in the finer points of conformation not in health.

[Crisovar]

Janba, were those sickly pugs show pugs, or pet pugs

One was shown and one a pet but from parents who were shown. There really should be no difference in health between the show and pet pups from one litter or from one breeder. The difference between a show quality dog and a pet quality one should be in the finer points of conformation not in health.

Has anyone claimed this is what happens?

[Sheridan]

Standards can be changed all people like but it won't change the fact some breeders will still use bad breeding practice. The fact there ars perfectly functional individuals within breeds shows that the standards aren't the issue.

I have agreed with TW and now Jo in this thread. Clearly, the apocalypse is upon us.

I don't tend towards conspiracy theories so I'm not a great believer in AR having a huge influence. Some yes but I think if there is an influence it's that the public is waking up and saying on a number of fronts, 'That's wrong and you can't do it anymore.' We want the public to be aware of bad breeders so why are we angry that they have woken up to bad breeders among us?

I have been talking about this for over six years. I can even pinpoint the date to when I woke up. It was when my pedigree dog got sick from PLN. He died. I bitch a lot about conformation issues in my breed. I want my wheatens to look like wheatens not blonde kerry blues. Yet, conformation isn't the killer in my breed (though shortening the back does nothing for back health). No, the killers in my breed is a kidney disease and an intestinal disease. There is an open register. The dogs with a history of throwing these disease in this country are well known. We have hopes of a genetic marker sooner rather than later but that's not here now. So why oh why are dogs still being bred from in this country whose antecedents have these diseases in the background? There's no reason for it. There are plenty of unrelated wheatens with no history of PLE/PLN in the background in this country so why breed from dogs whose pedigrees are chock full of it?

Answer: 'It would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.'

Answer: 'We're outcrossing.'

Well, breeders, outcrossing didn't help the beagle-wheaten outcrosses, did it.

I said it over six years ago and I'll repeat it. The 'You can't tell me what to do' brigade as evidenced by the response to the Crufts DQs, will look to their breeding programs and do something in the positive when a dog they have bred dies or is found to have some sort of major conformation issue and they get sued by a grieving and angry pet owner with a lot of money.

And then when self-regulation fails, legal regulation will step in.

[Aidan3]

Don't treat me like a fool, Aidan, or dog fan (in your alias).

Excuse me? Where did I treat you like a fool? I commented explicitly that your arguments were stronger than those of the article that you shared. If you feel like a fool because I pointed out how nonsensical that article was and you agree, then there's not much I can do about that. I gave an honest opinion on the article, and I said I thought your arguments were stronger. If you don't want to attract other's opinions (or refuse to take them as they are), don't post.

If you are insinuating that I use an alias, either produce some evidence or an apology. It is deeply offensive to suggest that I would use a second account to support my opinions. I'm one of the few people who post here with my real name and despite all the impassioned debates I've been involved with, and the repeated personal attacks by a couple of well known trolls here, I've never had a single warning.

I am far from a fool, and the reason we have BSL and docking is because uninformed people such as you treat those who disagree as fools.

This is a personal attack. You have no idea how informed I am, or is just anyone who shares a slightly different opinion "uninformed" in your eyes? I have no part to play in your being treated as a fool, nor am I responsible for BSL or docking.

Aidan, I can't understand why you can't believe AR has anything to do with this?

I explicitly stated that I think AR do have something to do with this. If you can't be bothered comprehending what I have to say, don't complain that you think I am treating you like a fool. I asked if you think I or TW are 'animal rights nutters'? We're most emphatically not, yet we think there is some merit to having judges exposed to scrutiny from veterinarians given their occasional history of putting up dogs with outwardly apparent health issues. Personally, I think Crufts got it wrong, though. No transparency, it was always going to bite them on the bum.

[Crisovar]

A

I said it over six years ago and I'll repeat it. The 'You can't tell me what to do' brigade as evidenced by the response to the Crufts DQs, will look to their breeding programs and do something in the positive when a dog they have bred dies or is found to have some sort of major conformation issue and they get sued by a grieving and angry pet owner with a lot of money.

And then when self-regulation fails, legal regulation will step in.

As far as I am concerned and that of my circle it is "don't lump us all in together" Work with us.

How does the sort of grandstanding that the Crufts joke was solve issues like PLN, MVD, HD, PKD?

it doesn't. It tells us that no matter how much testing you have done and how hard you have worked to produced Healthy animals the KC will smack you down for Haw.

Some will say it is a start, but no it isn't the Breeders had already started some always have. But everyone is happy to stand up and say well done to the KC for slapping a few big names out of Crufts.

How did you expect Breeders to react to Crufts?

[Sheridan]

Crisovar, by not acting like kids whose lollipops have been taken away. I expect people to act with grace and dignity and there has been precious little of either.

Why is it wrong of anyone to point out bad breeding?

[Crisovar]

Why is it wrong of anyone to point out bad breeding?

It is all in the execution.

For what it is worth the Interview with the Clumber Spaniel...that woman showed far more grace and dignity than the KC deserved.

[TessnSean]

First Sheridan and now Aidan2 need to understand what the term personal attack means.

From the dictionary

"Making of an abusive remark instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments"

Neither Jed nor I made abusive remarks in either of our replies so please get over your sensitivity to imagined rather real insults. Sheridan is pretty free with her colorful interpretations, purely designed to be dismissive and question the credibility of anyone she does not agree with. My posts are "tales of woes" and "the sky is falling" not terms I used. Yet when asked, Sheridan ignores all the requests to point out her claims of dogs "with eyes to their chins". Come on Sheridan. I supplied you details of where this was being discussed. How about you back up what you said and point me to the pictures. You do say things I agree with but for some reason, you have decided to multi quote me, taking out comments to belittle me, rather than engage in discussion of some value.

So it is very, very clear, I fully support breeding sounder and healthier dogs. That is why I eye test when it is a suggested test with my breed and not required. I go a step further and DNA test to determine as much as I can, before breeding that it is a healthy dog I will use. What I am saying, is the testing conducted on some of the breeds at Crufts was not fair.

The Peke was taken straight from the ring and when it was requested that she be given a drink of water, it was refused. She was subjected to a 20 minute eye examination where her top and bottom eyelids were drawn apart and pressure applied to see if she had shallow eye. Her eyes were held open while she had them examined for minutes, not seconds, with a direct light and she failed when she squeezed out tears when the lids were finally released.

The bulldog was failed for a spot on the eye which was a scar and not a chronic complaint. The Clumber has been well discussed. I don't pass an opinion on either of the mastiffs because I don't know the reasons. What I will say is that if mastiffs breed back to what they were years ago, with far less skin folds, it can only be a positive.

None of those DQ had the natural justice of an appeal process. They were dismissed full stop. I am all for rules but make them fair. I don't go see a podiatrist to check my eyes. I can't see that have a feline specialist check dogs was fair.

What should have come from Crufts was that the health of all dogs was checked. Not just a selected 15.

[Sheridan]

TessnSean, I looked for your FB group. Couldn't find it.

[raineth]

The Peke was taken straight from the ring and when it was requested that she be given a drink of water, it was refused. She was subjected to a 20 minute eye examination where her top and bottom eyelids were drawn apart and pressure applied to see if she had shallow eye. Her eyes were held open while she had them examined for minutes, not seconds, with a direct light and she failed when she squeezed out tears when the lids were finally released.

how do you know this is what happened?

[Sheridan]

Why is it wrong of anyone to point out bad breeding?

It is all in the execution.

For what it is worth the Interview with the Clumber Spaniel...that woman showed far more grace and dignity than the KC deserved.

Your complaint is that we're saying it wrong? Seriously?

[dog_fan]

Don't treat me like a fool, Aidan, or dog fan (in your alias). I am far from a fool, and the reason we have BSL and docking is because uninformed people such as you treat those who disagree as fools.

:rofl: Fools tend to show themselves up