Interesting News Out Of Crufts

[becks]

The black spaniel is the Field spaniel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_Spaniel

I must have misread. I was under the impression that the 'Black Spaniel' was an attempted break away from the Field Spaniel not a variation of colour within the breed. I wasn't aware that the Field Spaniel still came in black. The more you know.

yes, they are still around in black, the liver is just the more popular colour.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/standard.aspx?id=2054

Colour

Black, liver or roan. Any one of these with tan markings. In self-coloured dogs white or roan on chest permissable. Clear black/white or liver/white unacceptable.

[Dame Aussie]

Is it normal for a healthy dogs eyes to go red in the heat? Genuine question: I've never heard of that before

You can clearly see my white greyhounds pink skin go red when they have a play session which goes for a while. Must look at their eyes next time.

Yes, Lili's eyes sometimes look a little red/pink when she's tired after playing, she is a red merle with a merled blue/green eye and lots of pink skin.

[LizT]

Also pekinese photos from 1897 and 1905 respectively. For those interested in this particular breed, there's no photos from the Ming Dynasty ...

To be fair they say there was a lot of "gift giving" and exchange of dogs amongst the Nobility of the day.

The Temple Priests swapped Lhaso Apso and Shi Tzu puppies, which were interbred. And I would not be at all surprised if Japanese Chin were interbred with some lines of the Peke. The colouring and lack of coat being a clue to this possibility.

[LizT]

Some reference has been made to paintings, drawings and sculptures "of Old" in regard to the changes in certain breeds.

I really don't think "Artwork" can be used as an accurate historical record of any animal. It is very much left up to the interpretation of the artist and the style and fashions of the time.

You only have to look at the poorly conformed 'pinhead' Thoroughbreds in some of the old painting to know no horse looked liked that. Some were drawn extremely round and others with what looks like stretched bodies.

While I certainly agree that breeds have changed I don't think we have much to compare prior to the invention of photography.

The painting 'The Aran Fisherman's Drowned Child' is considered the first depiction of a wheaten terrier. Doesn't look like even the pictures of the wheatens from the early days of their first recognition.

Paintings are not reliable.

Precisely my point.

BTW I was surprised to hear that the Wheatens lines came from similar ones as the Kerry Blue (as per the Late, late show video you posted). :)

[Sheridan]

Precisely my point.

BTW I was surprised to hear that the Wheatens lines came from similar ones as the Kerry Blue (as per the Late, late show video you posted). :)

The story goes that to get the first recognised wheatens in Ireland, they lined up a bunch of dogs and went, 'That's an irish terrier, that's a wheaten, that's an irish ...' And indeed, if a wheaten's head is shaved down it's an irish terrier head. The kerry's head is a bit differently shaped (the long mouth, for instance) but they're all closely related.

[The Spotted Devil]

It's like the original Cocker and English Springer Spaniels. Small ones in the litter were Cockers and the larger ones were Springers!

[The Spotted Devil]

I don't think it's uncommon for the white of the eye to go slightly red when a dog (or human!) is very hot/tired. But this is about the eyelid dropping down (in a "v" shape) exposing the very sensitive conjunctiva to the elements. I understand that people feel strongly about breed standards but I also think it is important to acknowledge that parts of standards may have arisen because they appear to be important by association. I would like to hear an ophthalmologist's opinion on whether having excess skin around the eye reduces or increases the likelihood of injury.

Similarly in the Dalmatian, whilst patching is a serious fault in the standard and pups were PTS in the past, we now understand that these dogs are significantly less likely to be deaf and it's a good thing to have them in your bloodline. The UK Kennel Club (I think?) now accepts small patches that aren't obvious. Same with LUA Dalmatians but we can't afford to wait 30 years for these changes to be pushed through.

[Swizzlestick]

When I first saw this dogs eyes (left one really, didn't get a good look at the right eye) I thought it looked like she'd had entropian surgery.

Then I read the breed standard.

"The eyes are dark amber in color, large, soft in expression, and deep set in either a diamond shaped rim or a rim with a "V" on the bottom and a curve on the top."

From the Cervood website

http://www.chervood-kennel.com/offspring/boom.html

Sorry...your point being?

It shows the dogs right eye.

Oh, ok, wasn't sure what you meant by it. Thanks for the link. :)

Edited March 12, 2012 by Sir WJ

[LizT]

Precisely my point.

BTW I was surprised to hear that the Wheatens lines came from similar ones as the Kerry Blue (as per the Late, late show video you posted). :)

The story goes that to get the first recognised wheatens in Ireland, they lined up a bunch of dogs and went, 'That's an irish terrier, that's a wheaten, that's an irish ...' And indeed, if a wheaten's head is shaved down it's an irish terrier head. The kerry's head is a bit differently shaped (the long mouth, for instance) but they're all closely related.

Thanks Sheridan, I really loved the description of the Irish Terrier "always on the tippy toe of anticipation". :D

[Sheridan]

Precisely my point.

BTW I was surprised to hear that the Wheatens lines came from similar ones as the Kerry Blue (as per the Late, late show video you posted). :)

The story goes that to get the first recognised wheatens in Ireland, they lined up a bunch of dogs and went, 'That's an irish terrier, that's a wheaten, that's an irish ...' And indeed, if a wheaten's head is shaved down it's an irish terrier head. The kerry's head is a bit differently shaped (the long mouth, for instance) but they're all closely related.

Thanks Sheridan, I really loved the description of the Irish Terrier "always on the tippy toe of anticipation". :D

They definitely have forward momentum!

[sandgrubber]

sandgrubber, I couldn't be bothered reading all that. Your problem is that you have absolutely no understanding of a standard, it's purpose or how it works in a basic way. If you do have any understanding, you have always failed to show it here.

I have no idea how anyone can breed dogs without understanding the standard. If you understand your own standard, presumably you have the capacity to understand other standards, so the only reason you are continuing your disagreeableness is because you want to.

I don't consider it disagreeable to be curious or to try and understand the bigger picture of dog breeding.

I don't think I'm alone in being interested in the general process how breeds got started and how they, and the associated breed standards, have evolved over time. Or in thinking recent incidents in Crufts may be benchmark events in how breeds evolve and change.

You don't seem to have any interest . . . but that's no reason to attack me. No doubt you are better at understanding the subtleties of how ring judges interpret the breed standard than I am. Happy to do a little curtsy to acknowledge your superior understanding. Please appreciate, I probably have a better understanding of history, particularly Chinese history of the last two centuries, than you do. Not to mention that I'm a research professional (sadly, working without a good library at my disposal), and I've been actively looking for information, rather than slinging insults.

As for standards, it's surprisingly hard to find documents relating to the changes in the UK Peke standard (and the standards of many breeds) that were imposed on the breed club by the KC in 2008 than it is to interpret them. I finally found the "old" vs "new" in relation to the head portion of the standard. It's clear, unambiguous, and to anyone interested in breed history, extremely interesting.

Pekingese Breeding Standards:

"Old rules: head large, skull broad. Nose short and broad. Wrinkle, continuous or broken, should extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose. Muzzle wide with firm underjaw. Profile flat with nose well up between eyes. Eyes large. Short body heavier in front than rear. Coat long, with profuse mane extending beyond shoulders"

"New rules: head fairly large. Skull moderately broad. Nose not too short. Slight wrinkle may extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose. Muzzle must be evident, but may be relatively short and wide. Eyes not too large. Relatively short body. Coat moderately long, with mane not extending beyond shoulders"

Clear, the KC is trying to tone down exaggerated features. The ANKC adopted these changes. The AKC has retained the 'flat face' standard. Malachy won Westminster. Bianca was DQ's at Crufts. Coincidence? No way. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years, given how strongly some breeds and breed clubs resist change.

Barry Offiler, the chairman of the Pekingese Club, reacted to the 2008 changes in the Peke standard as follows:

"If it's got a muzzle it won't be a pekingese, and if we have to breed dogs with a muzzle which breed do we cross with them? We are talking about a breed that is popular worldwide. This will prevent us showing dogs abroad and will stop overseas competitors entering Crufts. We all support improved health, but we don't know what damage the muzzle might give to the breed."

source for both the change in standards and the quote from Barry Offiler: http://www.dreamdogs...furore-312.html

The question of how much muzzle has been present in the court dogs of the Chinese Empire (some sources say the Peke only became a distinct breed in the 19th century) is crucial to the discussion.

Furthermore, it is absolutely clear that the Chinese court had radically different values when it came to dogs than most of us. For example, Chinese court tradition placed huge emphasis on superstition-based preferred markings (Cixi liked dots on the forehead; others have valued marks that vaguely resembled certain Chinese characters). These values are completely lost in the west. You can't get the big picture is you block this sort of information.

Edited March 12, 2012 by sandgrubber

[~Anne~]

Furthermore, it is absolutely clear that the Chinese court had radically different values when it came to dogs than most of us. For example, Chinese court tradition placed huge emphasis on superstition-based preferred markings (Cixi liked dots on the forehead; others have valued marks that vaguely resembled certain Chinese characters). These values are completely lost in the west. You can't get the big picture is you block this sort of information.

I believe their was a similar emphasis placed on the attribute of the diamond on the Pug's forehead. I am not sure it is mentioned often anymore though.

[Sheridan]

Furthermore, it is absolutely clear that the Chinese court had radically different values when it came to dogs than most of us. For example, Chinese court tradition placed huge emphasis on superstition-based preferred markings (Cixi liked dots on the forehead; others have valued marks that vaguely resembled certain Chinese characters). These values are completely lost in the west. You can't get the big picture is you block this sort of information.

I believe their was a similar emphasis placed on the attribute of the diamond on the Pug's forehead. I am not sure it is mentioned often anymore though.

Is there a superstition attached to the diamond or is it something else?

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'm not sure how learning everything there is to know about standards one to two hundred years ago helps welfare today. Things change over time and sometimes for the better. Otherwise why not go back to driving model T Fords and using rum for medical procedures. That time has past, we need to think about the dogs we have in front of us today.

[~Anne~]

Furthermore, it is absolutely clear that the Chinese court had radically different values when it came to dogs than most of us. For example, Chinese court tradition placed huge emphasis on superstition-based preferred markings (Cixi liked dots on the forehead; others have valued marks that vaguely resembled certain Chinese characters). These values are completely lost in the west. You can't get the big picture is you block this sort of information.

I believe their was a similar emphasis placed on the attribute of the diamond on the Pug's forehead. I am not sure it is mentioned often anymore though.

Is there a superstition attached to the diamond or is it something else?

There was but I can't recall what it was now. I'll look it up though if you're interested.

Edited March 12, 2012 by ~Anne~

[Salukifan]

The Daily Telegraph (UK)'s take on Crufts 2012

Interesting.

So are the comments that follow the article. Usual positions... breeders pointing the finger at BYBs, and denying there's any problem.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Telida Whippets

[Dogsfevr]

Welcome to the Bulldog Breed Council Web Site

The Breed Council is made up of representatives of 17 Member Breed Clubs

Press Release March 12th 2012

The Bulldog Breed Council wishes to support the winning Exhibitor and the very experienced and respected Judge at Cruft’s 2012 .

We wish to clarify the events of the past weekend at Cruft’s and put an end to speculation.

We have worked with the Kennel Club over the last 8 years in a concentrated effort to focus on the points that needed urgent attention to improve the health of the Bulldog.

Long before any media attention and publicity we have had a health committee and a strategy to take the health of the breed forward , we have had many meetings and dialogue over a period of time with the Kennel Club that have not been instigated by Media frenzy but by the Breeders themselves .

The Facts ….

The top winning Bulldog in question has an old eye injury, it is not visible to the naked eye in the normal manner of being examined by the judge nor is it visible without pulling the dog’s eyelid down and a light being used.

It was a knock to the eye the dog had as a puppy and as had no ill effects and the exhibitor had not given this a second thought as a reason the dog would not be classed as healthy by the independent veterinarian on the day.

It seems the Kennel Club are assuming that any mark on the cornea of any Bulldog is due to damage caused by eye disease, in this case this is simply not true, and will be taken up with the Kennel Club by representatives of the Bulldog Breed Council at a meeting on 23rd March which we hopefully will prevent situations like this re-occurring in future

In all other areas this bulldog is healthy and passed all requirements.

This bulldog also went through this very same veterinary check as a volunteer at the trial run held by the BUBA [british Utility Breeds Association] in December 2011which was witnessed and watched by two independent Show officials of the society. With this passed obviously there was no warning that this failure was going to happen at such a high profile show in front of the world just a few months later.

We wish to add that Bulldog Breeders, Judges and Exhibitors are in a total disbelief because this bulldog has done so well not only in the UK but also in Europe.

We ask but one more point for you to ponder, this bulldog is fit for function, it’s a dog and as such has the freedom to enjoy its life with the rough and tumble that dogs at play have, we as a breed have no intention to say our dogs must be wrapped in cotton wool, they are a tough dog.

Being a dog, any dog, accidents can and do happen!

[~Anne~]

How many breeds clubs in Aus have formed health committees?

[Alyosha]

How many breeds in Australia don't have clubs? You will want both figures or any talk of how many have health committees will be innaccurate. My breed for example is lucky to have three state breed clubs. But each is a handful of people, and some owners//breeders choose to to be members anyway.

[~Anne~]

I never considered that breeds, at least the greater majority, wouldn't have clubs.

I'll rephrase the question. What percentage of breed clubs have health committees. And another, what percentage of breed clubs have an actual health strategy.